Something big happened last night, I think.

[LoneStarFree]

Thanks for the advice Rottie, my wife is very good looking as well, thats why it will be hard for me also, but I WILL NOT stare at her anymore, and I will try and hide my "arousal" when I see her in tantalizing positions. Thanks again. Actually I really do appreciate everyones advice, especially the women, because I am the typical male that does not know jacksh*t about the female thought process.

[LoneStarFree]

I was talking to my sis-in-law today, she talks to my W on a regular basis, and she sometimes shares things with me that my W has mentioned to her. One of the things my W has mentioned that is a factor in not wanting to reconcile with me is, my family. My family (my mom and dad and sibs) is dysfunctional to say the least, they have been the cause of many an arguement between my W and me. Now, the way I see it, if staying with my W and my 2 D's means having minimal contact with my family, I will do it, because she and my 2 D's are more important to me, THEY are MY family. Should I let her know this?

[eyesopened]

You sound a lot like my husband. My husband didn't actually hit me; however, he pushed and shoved, grabbed, and threw things at me. He was also verbally abusive, including name-calling. He has terrific self-control at work and in other situations (he's a former military officer who's now working in the private sector). I don't know why he became abusive toward me after we married, but one of his counselors suspects it has to do with his mother being controlling and abusive toward him. Also, his father was an alcoholic (for that reason, my husband won't drink except perhaps a glass of wine or a beer once or twice a year) and was abusive toward his wife and kids. Yet, his parents were pillars of the community, and nobody outside the immediate family knew about the abuse within that family except for one aunt and me.

The first time my husband was verbally and physically abusive, he apologized and wanted to make love to make up. His counselor later said that he was desperate to reconnect with me as I withdrew from him and expected sex to accomplish that. Making love with him was the last thing I wanted to do then.

The second time, I left him and took our first son who was only a few months old. He immediately went into counseling to control his anger. In all honesty, I would not have returned to my husband if his father hadn't passed away while we were separated. My husband was devastated, and we reconnected and grew close again. Also, I'd talked to his counselor, who worked solely with abusive men, who said my husband was one of the few men he'd worked with who he believed was able to change his abusive behavior. So, against the wishes of my family, I returned to my husband after being separated for several months.

Another child and one year later, he became physically abusive again; and I left again. Again, my husband went into counseling. Approximately one year later, I returned.

My husband is in many ways a wonderful man, but he has a problem with his anger when directed at me. He seems to let irritation and anger toward me build up until he explodes (used to be approximately once a year). I've noticed, too, that he has a hard time directly disagreeing with me and is more likely to resort to passive aggressive behavior with me.

The fourth time he was abusive, I filed for divorce; and again he immediately went back into counseling. Unfortunately, his counselor this time (we'd moved) was not only ineffective but made things worse. After finding another counselor and undergoing individual plus marriage counseling, we decided to stay together. A factor for me, unfortunately, was that we had 3 children; and there was no way a court wouldn't give him shared custody. He'd blown up at our kids a couple of times so I thought it was best for them to never be left alone with him for any extended period of time, so I chose to stay married to protect my kids. Also, my oldest child was in school, and I couldn't keep taking my kids and moving away without disrupting their education.

While in a counseling session with the ineffective and harmful counselor, my husband went into a rage, and the counselor (what a weasel) told me that I should go to a motel but shouldn't tell him, the counselor, where I was (IMHO, this counselor, a very short, slightly built, man was intimidated by my husband and spent much of the time, from what I saw, trying to one-up my military officer husband). I left him again and went to a women's shelter rather than to a motel or out of state to my parents' home as before. That seemed to be a wake-up call for him, and for the first time, he accepted that he was abusive (on the advice of my counselor, he also stopped seeing his therapist and found another, who was much better). I stayed at the shelter for a few days and wrote them a large check when we left (my husband could well afford it). The physical, and most of the verbal, abuse stopped until an incident last year (almost 14 years later) where he lost his temper and smashed some furniture and punched holes in the wall with his fists inches from my face.

My kids are in college and high school now, and I no longer feel the need to stay married to protect them. I'm a probable walkaway wife now even though divorce goes against my values and I still love my husband. Ironically, my husband is making drastic changes to try and save our marriage. But, after 20 years, I don't trust him anymore now. He also has a pattern of working hard to win me back when I leave or am on the verge of leaving; but when we're back together he pushes me away emotionally.

I guess I'm writing this to you for a couple of reasons. You sound as though you've made great strides in controlling your anger. But, if your wife allows herself to open up to you again, and you later resort to physical or verbal abuse, it'll be even more devastating to her than before and will destroy all trust you've rebuilt. I've watched my husband struggle with this problem and know that he truly hates his anger outbursts. I highly recommend a book, Anger Busting 101, written by a male psychologist who's struggled and overcome this problem himself. Rather than treat this problem by talking endlessly about childhood problems, he's found it most effective to treat anger problems like alcoholism and other addictions. He has a website, www.angerbusters.com .

The second thing is that your comments about wanting to make love to your wife even though she's withdrawn from you sound very much like my husband. Sex was one of the better parts of our marriage, and my husband seemed to feel that if we could reconnect sexually, everything would be okay. I, on the other hand, didn't feel loved by him (after all, if he loved me, why did he hurt me) and saw sex at that point as satisfying his needs more than mine. Men and women generally view sex very differently, and that's very important to remember. Another good book is Willard Harley's His Needs, Her Needs, in which he explains that while sex is most men's number 1 need and that a man usually needs sex to be loved that isn't the case for women. Most women need to receive affection and be able to trust their husbands in order to want to have sex with them. Dr. Harley has a website, www.marriagebuilders.com , that has a lot of information from his books.

In time, I came to see sex as a way to appease my husband. In other words, if I could keep him satisfied that way, he'd be less likely to explode in anger or to become irritated with me. Needless to say, this took its toll on our marriage; and I even got to the point where I was faking orgasms. Because I no longer trusted my husband or felt loved by him as before, sex wasn't pleasurable anymore and became strictly a physical thing to me.

I don't know if any of this will help, but I thought it might help to hear from a woman who's been through this. As much as I love my husband, I wouldn't have married him if I'd known about the anger problem. And, if we didn't have children, I wouldn't have stayed with him. My husband hated what he did to me and has struggled with his anger (much like an alcoholic struggles not to drink), but I think he wouldn't or couldn't accept how devastating his abuse was to me and how unloved and unsafe I felt.

[LoneStarFree]

Michlynn, you must be one tough lady to have lived through all of that. I have actually been to angerbusters.com and downloaded some stuff from there a few weeks back.

Most of my anger came in the form of verbal abuse, there was some physical, but it was mostly verbal and that was my way of withdrawing, so I'm finding out. I know that my wife is scared to "recommit" because she has told me as much and all I can do is show her that it will not happen again. One of the things that has come about form all of this is that I can no longer discipline my 4 year old daughter via spanking because I can't stand to see her in pain, and my relationship with her has gotten stronger and I will not go back on a vow to my little girl. I really hope you and your husband can work this out and I hope he finally overcomes his demons, because I am finding out that life is to short to go through it hating everyone and everything.

[LoneStarFree]

Well, I told my wife this morning after I got home from work, that if not having any contact with my family is what it will take, then I will do that, because she, Casey , and Erin are my FAMILY. She was cold to me when I first got home, but she warmed up a little before she left for Houston w/ her parents. I hope I did the right thing.

[LoneStarFree]

I'm also finding that xanax makes you very sleepy.

[eyesopened]

Hi LoneStarFree
No, I don't consider myself to be tough. I am, however, pragmatic and realistic. Also, I'm a probable walkaway wife not because I hate my husband or want to punish him but because I don't want to live in this emotional pain anymore and don't see any permanent changes on his part. If things turned around to the point that I could start trusting my husband again and believe that his changes are permanent rather than temporary, I'd definitely stay. I love him, but I no longer can live with his demons (BTW, that's a good description you gave).

When I say you sound like my husband, I'm not insulting you. I love my husband very much. Until I met him, I wasn't even interested in marrying (I saw very few good marriages). I mean it when I say that he's a wonderful man in many ways, but perhaps you describe his problems very well as demons. He hates his angry outbursts and their effects on me and our kids, and he's truly struggled with this problem and gone into counseling (this from a man who once said that counseling's for wimps). When I read the book, Anger Busting 101 (which I can't get him to read), it seemed to describe his problem better than any of the other books did. His anger and rage is like an addiction like alcoholism. Like an alcoholic who needs to abstain from alcohol, my husband needs to completely abstain from certain angry behaviors.

Ironically, my husband's father and probably his mother were alcoholic. As a result, he chooses not to drink out of love for us except for an occasional glass of wine or beer when we eat out (he likes the taste). Unfortunately, he doesn't see his anger problems in the same way. When things get to the point that I withdraw or leave or threaten to leave, he makes drastic changes. Instead of seeing this as an ongoing problem like alcoholism, he treats this as a series of crises. Once the crisis is averted, things go back to the way they were for the most part. Even though he may not be physically or verbally abusive, we often end up walking on eggshells to avoid his outbursts (I read your earlier posts, and your description about how you previously would have blown up and sworn about spilled milk sounds all too familiar). I'm not afraid of him, but it's hard to trust and respect him, and I most definitely do not feel loved and cherished by him. Also, I used to become very irritated and angry at how manipulative (not maliciously) he could be to ease his pain when I withdrew after one of his outbursts. For example, he'd sometimes go into a martyr mode saying how worthless he was and would "threaten" to kill himself so we'd all be "better off". I would have had much more respect and admiration for him if he'd handled this like he does problems at work and the way he'd been trained to do as a military academy graduate, if he'd simply accepted and stated that there was no excuse for his behavior and then set about making sure it never happened again rather than manipulating me into having to make him feel better.

In an earlier post, you asked for some input from women. While it would be a big mistake to assume that all women think and feel the same and that my thoughts and feelings match your wife's, I'm willing to answer questions you have about the effect my husband's behavior had on me and the actions he took or could take that would help us and those that would harm us.

For example, my husband seemed to think that if we could only make love after an outburst, everything would be fine. The mere fact that he was aroused sexually by me meant nothing as long as I felt unloved and unsafe. And, in time, I used sex as a pacifier. My husband is a great lover and very considerate in bed. He truly gives as good as he gets. He'd never force himself on me, and he always respected my "no". But, after nights of being "poked" while he was hugging me and trying to reconnect after an outburst, I found it easier to just give in. The problem is that I felt resentful and used while he felt that we'd reconnected and everything was fine again.

You've mentioned several times that you're a Christian. I am, too. In fact, one of the good things that came out of my marital problems is that I became a Christian after years of atheism or agnosticism. As unhappy as I was, I had to wrestle with whether life had any true meaning and why I chose to stay in an unhappy and unfulfilling marriage out of love for my kids rather than to leave them and "eat, drink, and be merry" if there was no ultimate meaning. My turning point came when I sat sobbing on the bathroom floor wishing that I'd never been born because life either was ultimately meaningless but I couldn't bring myself to abandon my kids and "go for the gusto" or there was some type of judgment after this life in which case I was screwed. It wasn't until my heart was broken that I could let God into it and see that the gospel was indeed good news. The words from Amazing Grace about once being lost but now found and once being blind but now seeing describe what happened to me.

Anyway, as a Christian, you're probably aware of Paul's words about a thorn in his side that he prayed to be removed. It wasn't, though, and he had to accept that. I think that perhaps your and my husband's anger may be the thorns in your sides. Perhaps God may miraculously heal you or him; on the other hand, he may choose to leave that thorn there for the rest of your earthly lives.

Have you seen the Lord of the Rings movies (my sons' favorites). If so, you'll recall that Frodo was chosen to carry the ring. It wasn't his choice, it was something that came to him unwanted. Perhaps it may help to think of your anger as being similar to that ring. It's a heavy burden and only you can carry it. You'll have to fight against its power throughout this journey of life. You didn't ask for this burden or choose it, it was given to you. Others can help strengthen you but only you can actually carry this burden. If you don't bear this burden and don't fight against its power, those around you who you love (your wife and children) will suffer. Right now, you may be at the stage Frodo was at when he was at Rivendell. It seemed like the end of his journey, but was, in fact, only the beginning. And, there will be many times when you'll be tempted to give up because of the pain and exhaustion you feel.

One other way in which you sound like my husband is that he, too, was more inclined to verbal abuse rather than physical violence. I think he takes pride in the fact that he never hit me like his dad used to do to his wife and kids. Yet, the verbal abuse seemed to do far more damage than the few incidents of physical violence (mostly smashing furniture, pushing, shoving, grabbing, etc.) Please don't ever think that verbal abuse doesn't leave deep wounds and scars. It does, and it's that verbal abuse that I'm constantly praying for help to forgive.

I don't know a good analogy except to say that I could have accepted unfaithfulness from my husband (we'd both had other lovers before marriage but have been faithful to each other in our marriage). He's always traveled a lot, and when he was in the Air Force, he was often TDY. He's a good looking man who's kind and fun to be with, and almost every woman who's worked for him has told me how lucky I am to be married to him. If he'd given into temptation and had a one-night stand, I'd been hurt and angry but wouldn't interpret that as having the intent to hurt me. But, there's no getting around the fact that when he's verbally abusive, he knows he's hurting me and his words are meant to hurt me. I once told him that he'd promised to love, honor, and cherish me; but he'd hurt me more than anybody else in my life (including a relative who molested me when I was a little girl). Yet, he tells me that he loves me more than he's ever loved anybody else.

I've had enough experience with men to know that there are times when sex is just sex to them, that it's just a physical thing. But, because sex for most women has an emotional component, my husband would have been deeply hurt and probably devastated if I'd had an affair or been sexually involved with other men during our marriage. It wouldn't have made any difference to him if I'd argued, for example, that I didn't have intercourse, but only kissed and gave and/or received oral sex (I'm trying to draw an analogy here to show that verbal abuse hurts as much as physical abuse).

If you're like my husband, you're probably feeling a lot of pain right now and will do almost anything to make that go away. But, even if your wife warms up to you again and makes love with you, there will be an underlying problem with trust for a very long time. If you ignore it, it will fester instead of going away. My experience is that a breach of trust can't be healed by simple apology. It can be healed but will take a lot of work on your part, and I admire the steps you've taken so far. Please give her time and prove to her and your daughters that you are the man you want to be, the one who will protect and love them no matter what. Also, she's going to be pressured by a lot of well-meaning friends and family members to leave you. On the other hand, you've got several factors in your favor--you're still living with her (and I agree with the posters who say you shouldn't move out except I'd say that if you feel your anger might endanger your wife or daughters, you should temporarily leave) and you have children together. I suspect that if your wife was asked to make a list of the qualities she likes and dislikes about you, she'd be able to make a long, long list of those that she likes whereas the list of dislikes would be quite short.

BTW, be careful with the Xanax. I've taken it in the past (marital problems led to anxiety and depression), and it can easily become habit-forming.

[LoneStarFree]

i just wrote my wife this letter, and I will leave it in an envelope on her nightstand. Please tell me what yall think. I am sincere in everything I put in it, and I really did get down on my hands and knees and bow my head to the floor and make a vow before God.


Jennifer,

I realize you are highly skeptical of anything I say right now, and that is understandable.

This morning when you were in our bathroom getting ready to go to your brother and Ellens and I came in to talk to you, what I was trying to say was that as I listened to Delisa talk about how my brother had just treated her last night, I realized the amount of pain I must have put you through and my heart fell to my toes. I felt I had to say SOMETHING to you this morning even though you would not think it was sincere, and I can tell you that I WAS/AM very sincere in my sorrow for causing you so much pain.

I understand your hesitance to ever trust me again, and all I can tell you is that I got on my hands and knees and bowed my head to the floor and made a solemn vow before God to never ever touch you, Casey, and Erin in anger, and I also vowed to never verbally abuse you again, ever. I take these vows before God extremely seriously and I pray that you beleive me in this.

I can understand how you might think my behaviour of late is all an act, but it is not, some of the issues that I had that were causing me to have that anger ( and yes, I speak in the past tense) have already been resolved and will not return.

I know that intimacy, or lack thereof was a big factor in our marriage and I had issues with initiating contact, but thru threrapy I have overcome those issues and I would like nothing more than to make love to you over and over again. But, do not get me wrong, I realize that you are in control of that and I am fine with that.

I will not engage in a pity session, because like I told you , I want you to take me back because you see something in me worth loving, not because you feel sorry for me. I do know that I am cpapble of a vast amount of love and I would love to show you how great our marriage and the raising of Casey and Erin together could be, but again, you are in the drivers seat as it should be.

When I told you that I would forego contact with my side of the family if it was the only way to keep you, Casey & Erin in my life, I will do it, because through therapy I am realizing that my family seems to thrive on the misery of others and they are afraid to admit that they are part of the problem, and not the solution. YOU, CASEY, & ERIN are my ULTIMATE PRIORITY and I will sacrifice everything to keep us all together.

Oh! How I wish I could be with you Casey & Erin on Easter Sunday at church! I would try and swap shifts with someone so that I could go with yall as a family.

I have so much that I want to show you in the coming months and years and I hope you are up to the adventure.

Jennifer, you keep saying that you can't wait around for me to change, and all I can say is that there is no "waiting" period, it's already begun, and change is a never ending process! And I am changing for the better.

Love,
Dustin.

[LoneStarFree]

Any thoughts on the above letter?

[eyesopened]

Hi Lonestarfree,
I'm writing this while doing several other things, so forgive me if it seems to jump around at times. Regarding your letter, first did you read my second post, which is right above your post with the letter.

Especially pay attention to the first paragraph where I explain why I'm leaving my husband after more than 20 years of marriage. It's because I didn't SEE any PERMANENT changes. I have a drawerful of letters similar to the one you want to give your wife. I know my husband was SINCERELY remorseful when he wrote every one of those letters and and that he'd be relieved if God miraculously took this problem away from him.

Have you read Divorce Busting or the Divorce Remedy? There's excellent advice in those books especially regarding monitoring behavior that is effective or ineffective.

IMHO, if this is the first letter AND if you're able to put it someplace where you're not checking every day to see if your wife has read it AND if you can accept that your wife has no obligation or duty to respond to the letter AND if you know that you won't get upset or angry if she doesn't respond or if she responds with anger, sarcasm, or disbelief, then perhaps you may want to give this to her. If you're expecting a positive response from her wife, you're trying to control her.

On the other hand, if you've previously given her letters like this promising to change but have gone back on those promises, this letter may be seen as more empty promises made solely to keep her from leaving.

Again, compare your anger problems to alcoholism. If you have any experience with alcoholics, you've probably familiar with the promises not to drink and apologies about the harm it caused to those around the alcoholic. The promises and remorse are sincere, and there may be some short-term behavior changes but after a while things almost always go back to the way they used to be.

As a Christian, you may be aware of the parable where a father asks two sons to do something. One son says he'll do it but he doesn't actually do the chore. The other son says he won't but then he goes out and does it. Jesus then asks his listeners which son actually did his father's will. The answer, of course, is the one who actually did what the father asked, not the one who said he'd do it but then didn't.

The first time my husband gave me a letter like the one you want to give your wife, I believed him especially since he has a hard time expressing his feelings and apologizing.(brought up by a dad very much like the father in The Great Santini, including the fact that he, too, was a USMC officer) In fact, that letter was a factor in my decision to give him a second chance.

The second time he gave me a letter like that, I threw it in the trash, packed up our son, and moved 1500 miles away with every intention of divorcing him. Words are cheap and they mean nothing when the harmful behavior continues. The only reason I came back was that he (who didn't believe in counseling and thought it was for "wimps") went immediately into counseling with a therapist who worked solely with abusive men and we were able to reestablish an emotional bond at his father's funeral. Also, I called his counselor who stated that my husband was one of the few men he'd worked with who seemed to have the potential and was extremely motivated (I've never doubted that my husband loves me and loves our kids) to stop the abusive and harmful behavior.

Subsequent letters from him only irritated me because I'd have preferred that he brace himself like a man, apologize with no excuses, and be willing to face and accept the anger, pain, and grief I was feeling over being hurt by him. I would also have preferred that he take whatever action was necessary to stop his abusive and angry behavior and words rather than to wait until our relationship reached crisis level. Letters are very one-sided, and I felt manipulated because he'd get upset if I didn't read them or respond to them positively. I don't believe that he was trying to be manipulative or controlling, and I believe that he truly thought he was being sincere and that he was pouring out his heart to me. However, I felt controlled and manipulated and that I was expected to ease his pain and discomfort despite my own great emotional pain created by his broken promises and abusive behavior.

On the other hand, your wife may feel differently about a letter. Again, I can only tell you my feelings and thoughts as a woman who repeatedly gave her husband second chances and who heard sincere, but ultimately empty, promises for 20 years. And now that our kids are grown and leaving home, I don't see any reason to stay with my husband and his demons any longer.

You can't and shouldn't expect to control your wife's feelings and decisions, you can only control your own emotions and behavior. If you haven't read Divorce Busting or Divorce Remedy, please do. If you want to buy them, you can find good prices through www.bestbookbuys.com . I'd also highly recommend Anger Busting 101 (the website has some good info, but it's very limited). Also, Willard Harley's books, His Needs, Her Needs; and Love Busters (especially read the section in that book on angry outbursts). Dr. Harley's website has some info on love busters here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html There are links within the article to specific love busters, such as angry outbursts.

If you don't want to buy them, most libraries have interlibrary loan programs and should be able to obtain these books for you. Incidentally, if my husband had taken the initiative to read any of these books and put the principles into practice (without demanding that I notice that he was reading them), I would have been favorably impressed and more inclined to give him another chance. But again, that's me and I'm not your wife.

Again, I commend you for the steps you've taken so far, especially the anger management. Like Michele, I believe that marriage is worth fighting for especially if there are children. Your daughters need a father who will love and protect them and who shows them through his life how a good husband treats his wife. Daughters who grow up in homes with abuse often marry men who abuse them; and I'm sure you don't want that for your daughters.