I met with my counselor today; H didn't show even though he was aware of the appointment. Counselor was very upfront about the fact that H is a player. The moving out, seeing me, walking away, and having me break down in tears each time is all part of his "game" according to her. She said that there absolutely should be no taking him back, regardless of what he promises.
Given that, do I owe him any notice before doing the following:
1) Cancelling the cell phone (in my name) that he uses. I'll end up paying a $200 early termination fee. However, I'll also have to pay charges if he suddenly decides to quit paying as a part of his "game." He is always past due on the account. I found out today that he had extended the contract for 3 years when he told me that he would close the account when the contract ended in Sept. 04...a complete lie per the Nextel agent.
2) Having the truck repossessed (financed in my name) that he drives. He's promised to make the payments, however, the March one hasn't been made yet; the grace period ends on Fri. The counselor says that his lying is part of his "game" and that he will not keep making the payments. I cannot afford them on my own, given that he's left me with everything else to cover.
3) Dropping him from my car insurance. I'm certainly not willing to foot the bill for that. However, the car is financed and must be insured.
I really don't give a damn about whether any of this causes difficulty for him; he hasn't cared about me having to cover everything for the last few years. The thing is that I am a nice person and want to do what's right. He just wants to play his "game." Does that invalidate providing him with some notice of what I intend to do?
We own nothing jointly and have been married for less than 2 years. I owned my house (first jointly with my ex and then alone) since 1986.
Quote: I met with my counselor today; H didn't show even though he was aware of the appointment. was he expected to? was he invited to? was it discussed that he would or wouldn't? Counselor was very upfront about the fact that H is a player. she was upfront with this fact? or do you mean she was upfront with her OPINION based upon her A$$umptions? The moving out, seeing me, walking away, and having me break down in tears each time is all part of his "game" according to her. yup! according to HER. She said that there absolutely should be no taking him back, regardless of what he promises sorry to say sounds like you've got one of those dumb councelors who's got some certificate that they think gives them the right to TELL people what they should and shouldn't do.
Point is COgal you have to make your own decisions based on your own feelings NOT based on what anyone else thinks you should do. It is the c's job to help you sort through YOUR thoughts/feelings/assumptions/expectations/goals etc NOT to tell you what s/he thinks you should do.
I've asked you several times to take a look at dr or db they will help you answer some of the questions you ask.
LL
re councellors...there is a forum on this bb called "when therapy hurts" take a look if you want.
Cut it all off ASAP. Don't let him take anything else from you...you've given enough. Call him and t1ell him you're disconnecting everything and if he wants it he should contact the appropriate companies and buy it himself.
She's been meeting with us since Oct.; she's also met with him individually. He has consistently refused to do anything she's suggested to even attempt to save our relationship. Yes, he was supposed to come to the session today. I happen to think this is all a game to him as well; I've asked him that many times WELL before starting counseling.
I don't really have time to do the research you suggested; I have to protect myself and my kids from a prior marriage. My H has lied and lied, both in counseling and to me directly. When he's not lying, he's twisting whatever has been said. Believe me, the counselor knows what she's talking about. I've seen it but didn't want to recognize the truth. He even took something of mine, pawned it, and then denied doing so. I found the proof and confronted him with it. He said he "made a mistake" but never said he was sorry. His mistake was in leaving the receipt right on the desk in our room.
{{{COgal}}} This guy is unworthy of you. Sever all ties ASAP. If it's no more than a truck and a phone it shouldn't be too difficult to do. I hope he doesn't have a claim on your house. You've wasted two years of your life, don't waste any more. You are a nice woman and there are nice men out there who would love to make you happy. SD
I'm not very surprized to hear every one else here telling you to dump the turd and cut him dry...I think they're forgetting somethings though...
YOU chose to marry him for some reason? YOU love him, YOUR children love him YOU'VE been down this road before and finally
THEY are only hearing YOUR side of the story, YOUR interpertations of his actions and YOUR feelings.
if the guy is a the turd all these people are assuming him to be, well then you've still got some work to do on you to figure out why it is that you were attracted to such a man in the first place but read this exerpt from Michelles book.
Quote: Well-meaning friends and family Oddly enough, some of the people nearest and dearest to you are part of the problem. This is not to say that they don’t have your best interest at heart. They do. They love you. They can’t stand to see you in pain. More than anyone, they know you and know how much you deserve happiness in your life. Their caring is genuine. Why then, do I say that your loved ones can be misdirecting you?
The Biased Shoulder When you share your unhappiness with loved ones, what they hear is your side of the story, and your side only. Even though your feelings about your spouse and marriage are valid, they are, nonetheless, biased. Needless to say, if your spouse were in on the conversation, the story about your marriage would take a not-so-slight different turn. But the people who love you don’t care about objectivity; they want you to feel better. Although this makes perfect sense, the end result is that the people in whom you are confiding, offer potentially life-changing advice without a complete set of facts. If you follow that advice, you may create an even bigger rift in your marriage. Let me give you an example of how this works.
Sue was miserable in her marriage. She felt that she and her husband, Jeff, had completely grown apart. Sue decided to talk to her sister, Ann, about her situation. Sue told Ann that she was really upset about how things had changed in her marriage. When she and Jeff got married, she explained, they were crazy about each other. They did everything together, spent hours talking, weekends doing fun things, and sex was great. They were best friends. As Sue recalled these memories, she cried. Ann’s heart went out to Sue to see her in such pain. Ann asked Sue to tell her more about what had been troubling her. Through her tears, Sue filled in the blanks.
She said that Jeff had turned into a completely different man from the one she married. He worked a great deal and when he was home, he showed little interest in talking or being with her. On weekends, he occupied himself with projects or watching sports on television. When Sue approached Jeff about her feelings, Jeff responded coldly, “Why are you always hassling me?” Sue tried to get through to Jeff and tell him how much his distance was hurting her, but Jeff seemed to withdraw even more.
Jeff’s insensitivity to her feelings made Sue angry and hurt. She stopped cooking for him, doing his laundry, trying to engage him in conversation and even refused his advances to be intimate. In short, things went from bad to worse. Now, instead of just being distant, Jeff had become critical and unpleasant, never passing up an opportunity to say or do something to hurt Sue’s feelings. Sue couldn’t understand why Jeff had become such a “jerk,” especially since all she wanted was a closer relationship.
Upon hearing Sue’s rendition of their marital interactions, Ann immediately came to her defense. “I can’t believe he’s acting this way! This isn’t the same Jeff I used to know. What do you think is going on with him?” For the next half-hour, they hypothesized the possible causes of Jeff’s ugly behavior- an affair, depression, a mid-life crisis or perhaps just bad genes from his father. Although they were uncertain as to the real reason Jeff had transformed into the unlikable man Sue had portrayed him to be, there was a consensus that Jeff was to blame for Sue’s unhappiness. Ann consoled Sue. She hugged her and told her that she “would be there for her anytime she was needed”. Ann also offered a few suggestions- counseling, giving Jeff an ultimatum, a trial separation- and Sue said she would consider her ideas. Sue thanked Ann for her support and understanding. She felt so much better.
Sue did follow through with Ann’s suggestion to give Jeff an ultimatum. “Either you change, or I’m leaving,” she warned him. But Jeff did not change. Her threat angered him and he became even colder. In the weeks that followed, Sue regularly sought comfort in Ann’s friendship. Sue complained, Ann commiserated. Although Sue felt validated by Ann’s feedback, it did little in the way of helping her find solutions to her marital problems. As time passed and nothing improved, Sue’s despair grew, as did Ann’s determination to encourage her sister to leave her marriage. “You’ve tried everything,” Ann told her, “It’s time to throw in the towel.”
From Sue’s one-sided story, it’s easy to see how Ann arrived at this conclusion. Sue appears to be the spouse who is working on the marriage while Jeff is the inconsiderate, unloving spouse. From Sue’s story, one could easily get the impression that she has been wronged for years by Jeff’s selfishness. But before you jump to conclusions, let me allow you to eavesdrop on Jeff’s conversations with his lifelong buddy, John. Jeff is a very private person and, though he rarely opens up with friends and family, his unhappiness with Sue prompted him to discuss his marriage with John.
He told John that he was frustrated and angry at Sue. All she ever did was nag and nag and nag. Nothing he did ever seemed good enough. She asked for help in the kitchen and when he cleaned it, the only comment he heard was, “I can’t believe the way you loaded the dishwasher, it’s so sloppy,” or “You forgot to wipe off the counters.” All Jeff heard was criticism, never appreciation. So, after a while he just stopped trying.
A married man himself, John knew that their relationship problems didn’t happen overnight, so he asked about the circumstances leading up to their current situation. Jeff was unclear as to the causes of their problems, but he felt that Sue had bailed out on him as a partner long ago. “When we met, she was fun to be with. We went to sporting events, out to dinner, we socialized with friends, and had common interests. We golfed, played tennis, and biked all the time. We both loved the outdoors.” But Sue stopped showing interest in their activities together. She seemed more interested in her job, church activities, friends, talking on the phone and going shopping. Sometimes she would stay on the phone with her girlfriends or her mother the entire evening! “But the biggest change in Sue,” Jeff said, “is that she never wants to have sex, and it’s been that way for a very long time. That definitely bothers me the most.”
Jeff went on to explain how hurt and angry he felt because of Sue’s constant rejection. “I don’t know what’s with her. She used to love sex. We had a great sexual relationship. I always prided myself about how connected we were physically. But now she’s never in the mood. She’s got a headache, she’s mad at me, she’s too busy, it’s the wrong time of month… It got to the point where there never seemed to be the right time.” He told John that Sue’s cold shoulder had taken its toll; he felt a low-grade anger whenever he was in her presence. He admitted to being irritable lately and snapping at Sue fairly often. He was hoping that at some point Sue, the woman who used to be his best friend and lover, would, just once, reach out to him and be affectionate. Instead, all he ever got was criticism.
After hearing Jeff’s dilemma, John said, “Sounds really tough. Sue used to be so good to you. I wonder what’s up with her. Maybe her hormones are running amuck. I heard about some women with hormone imbalances losing interest in sex. You ought to check it out. Sorry to hear you’re having problems.” Then he suggested that Jeff do something to spice his sex life up a bit. “Get a bottle of wine, buy a sexy nightgown and make her a candlelight dinner. Stay at a nice hotel next weekend. Tell her you want to be closer physically.”
A few days later, Jeff approached Sue with the idea of a little romantic weekend getaway. Sue didn’t seem too interested. Jeff made a comment about not being intimate anymore and Sue bit his head off. “Of course we’re not intimate! You don’t expect me to want to have sex with you when our relationship stinks, do you?” Jeff replied, “Have you ever thought about the fact that our relationship stinks because you don’t want to have sex anymore?” This chicken-or-egg argument played like a broken record for weeks before the couple decided to split.
Imagine how Ann or John might have reacted differently had they heard “the whole story”. Instead of thinking Jeff was a jerk, Ann might have had more compassion. She might have realized that Jeff wasn’t the villain Sue made him out to be; that he was feeling rejected and hurt. With this in mind, Ann might have suggested that Sue do things that would help Jeff feel more connected to her such as go biking or hiking together, or being more playful and affectionate. There’s no question that Jeff wasn’t handling his hurt feelings in the best way, but unfortunately, that often happens in relationships. Instead of sharing openly about feelings of vulnerability, some people lash out. When relationships are working properly, partners are often able to see beyond the anger and address the hurt beneath it. Since Ann was totally in the dark about Jeff’s feelings about the marriage, her suggestion- give him an ultimatum- was bound to fail.
Had John heard Sue’s side of things, he might have understood that for Sue, the prerequisite for being close physically is emotional closeness and that Sue and Jeff had not been close for some time. He might have suggested that Jeff spend more time talking and paying attention to her, and being her friend. It’s easy to see how John’s well-meaning advice- spice up your sex life- fell flat on its face.
Protectors and rescuers Another reason friends and family can increase the odds you will be divorce-bound is that, because they can’t bear to see you in pain, they will steer you to what they think is the quickest escape from the emotional torture. They convince themselves and then you that, since your spouse is the problem, get rid of him or her. “Just leave. You don’t deserve this. Just get out.”
But you need to be aware of a couple of things when you listen to this advice. First of all, although your friends and family care about you, their advice is also self-serving. It will make them feel better if you aren’t so sad. It will be a relief for them when you stop crying or feeling so torn. They want an end to this unhappiness. Problem is, if you follow their advice and make them feel better, you’ll be divorced and supporting yourself (and your kids), changing your lifestyle, making adjustments, and starting all over, they won’t. Even if your loved ones are already divorced and believe that their divorce has improved lives dramatically, it doesn’t mean that you will feel this way too. No two people are alike.
Second, this whole idea – get rid of your partner and leave your troubles behind- is about the most absurd notion I’ve ever heard. To begin with, if you have children, unless your partner is the kind of person who will leave the planet, never to be heard of again, don’t count on getting rid of your spouse. When children are involved, there is no such thing as divorce. Your spouse will be in your life forever. And I mean forever. You’ll be in constant communication about visitation, decisions about your children’s welfare, holidays, money, vacations, issues pertaining to the relationship between the children and new male or female friends/marital partners. The list is endless.
Quote: Well-meaning Therapists Often people recognize that friends and family can be biased and, for that reason, decide to seek professional help for their marriage. Unfortunately, going to a therapist when you are having marital problems doesn’t guarantee you will leave with your marriage intact. Some therapists believe that when a marriage stops being fulfilling or nurturing, it’s time to move on. They see divorce as a challenging, yet viable solution to marriage’s many problems. They appreciate the impact of divorce on children, but they prefer to focus on children’s resiliency and their ability to adjust. Although they might initially try to help couples beyond their differences, if the path to solution is rocky, they are quick to suggest calling it quits. They see divorce as a rite of passage. But why?
To begin with, you need to know that, first and foremost, therapists are people. No matter how well trained they may be, what you get when you seek therapy is the person behind the therapist. All people have life experiences that help shape who they are, their beliefs, their values, their morals, and their interests, and therapists are no exception. It’s literally impossible for therapists to check their values and perspectives at the door at the start of a therapy session.
A therapist’s views about marriage are influenced by many things, including the quality of his or her own parent’s marriage. For example, if the therapist’s parents had a highly combative marriage and made no attempt to improve things, making it miserable for the kids, the therapist might believe that people are better off divorcing when there is tension and steer the sessions in that direction. If a therapist’s father had affairs and the therapist observed the hurt that it caused in the family, he might believe that marriages can not heal after infidelity. If a therapist grew up with two parents who calmly talked things out when there was trouble, and if you and your mate have a more hotheaded problem-solving style, she might believe that you are incompatible or that your marriage is dysfunctional, and might suggest you separate. This is unfortunate because research shows that many hot-headed couples love each other to death and manage to solve problems just as well as those who are more controlled. If, in growing up, a therapist’s had a really stormy relationship with her father, it’s possible that she might have negative feelings about men and continually side with the woman in the couple. This sort of bias is never productive and likely to result in insurmountable resistance on the part of the man who feels out-numbered, or in his dropping out of therapy, neither of which bodes well for the marriage. In short, therapists can’t separate who they are from what they do.
The same is true for me. Do you remember what I told you about my own parent’s divorce on my own marriage and in my work with couples? It made me a true believer in the sanctity of marriage. How does this pro-marriage bias effect what I do when I work with people?
For starters, each time I meet a person or couple and hear about their marriage problems, my default position is, “This marriage can be saved.” Obviously, I am not always right and some marriages do end in divorce, but my positive attitude has served my clients well. Most couples stay together and find renewed happiness with each other.
I don’t panic or even become discouraged when I hear people’s doubts about their marriages or when I’m told about complicated marital problems. I’ve worked with people who had experienced severe marital problems- multiple affairs, a divorce in the works, months of separation, a loss of love and/or lust- and, in the eleventh hour, were able to fall back in love. I mean, really fall back in love. So, as I’ve said before, problems aren’t roadblocks, just bumps in the road.
Contrast this “Never say die,” philosophy with the approach many other therapists take with couples. Many therapists assess the viability of people’s marriages based on the types of problems they are having, the severity of these problems, how long they have lasted and how optimistic both partners are about the possibility of change. If the problems are long-standing or one partner expresses intense doubt about the marriage, the therapist becomes pessimistic, starts to doubt that the marriage can be saved and begins to work towards separation.
I , on the other hand, completely understand why people feel pessimistic. Anyone who has suffered in a marriage over a long period of time will, by definition, feel despondent. I see the hopelessness as a normal reaction to a painful situation rather than a telltale sign about the marriage’s future. I proceed with the knowledge that, once we find workable solutions, the hopelessness will vanish. Hopelessness doesn’t derail me.
Too many therapists give people the message that divorce is a reasonable solution when hopelessness exists. How? In many ways, but here is one example. People often go to therapists for affirmation that getting out is the right thing to do. They feel really torn and they are looking for that “expert opinion”. Some people even ask their therapist outright, “Don’t you think I’ve tried everything,?” “Do you think my marriage is over?” The truth is no matter how many degrees a therapist might have, or how smart he or she might be, there is absolutely no way for a therapist to know when a marriage has reached a dead end. Therapists can’t tell when a marriage is over.
But this doesn’t stop many therapists from acting as if they have a crystal ball. They say, “If your husband won’t attend therapy, it means he’s not committed to your marriage and nothing you do will make a difference,” or “It seems as if your wife has lost feeling for you, why don’t you just get on with your life,?” or “As long as your husband is having an affair, you might as well assume your marriage isn’t going to survive,” or “Why are you hanging on to this marriage, your wife has already filed for divorce?” Although these predicaments might make marital repair more challenging, none of them is, by any means, a marital death sentence. Far from it! Telling people that their marriage is doomed is, in my opinion, fortune telling at best, unethical, at worst!
Besides therapists’ personal experiences, there are other reasons they might not be advocates for marriage. Their professional training may stand in the way. Although it may seem strange, the whole premise upon which traditional therapy is based may not be conducive to helping people work out problems when the going gets tough. For instance, therapists are trained to encourage people to pursue the parts of their lives that will bring personal happiness and satisfaction, even if these goals are at odds with what’s best for the marriage, the children or even the individual in question in the long run. The therapist wants you to feel good and do whatever it takes to make that happen.
I once saw a couple on the verge of divorce- thanks to a therapist the man had seen. The wife and child had moved back to their home town, several thousand miles from their current home, in order to receive family support for their disabled child. Because they were having a hard time selling their home, the husband decided to remain with the home until it was sold. During the time they were separated, he had a great deal of freedom. There were no responsibilities as a husband or father. He could work, go to his health club and be with his friends as much as his little heart delighted. And he did. He was having a ball. That’s when he started to question his marriage. He thought to himself, “I really enjoy my life as a single person, I wonder if there is something wrong with my marriage.” So he sought the help of a professional.
The therapist helped him to uncover feelings of discontent with his marriage and his life as a family man. She suggested that perhaps he had always been a “pleaser,” that is, that he put effort into making everyone happy but himself. Her solution? “Get out of your marriage. Start anew. Be self-determining. Follow your heart.” Psychobabble poison.
He eventually confessed his ambivalence to his wife who was devastated. She had no idea he was unhappy in their marriage! They agreed to schedule an appointment with me. When I saw them, I somewhat agreed with the therapist’s assessment, that he had lost himself in the marriage, rarely openly expressing his desires and often going along with the program, despite his own wishes. However, instead of thinking that his path to happiness was for him to abandon his marriage and daughter, I saw better route; to help him become more forthcoming with his wife and find ways to meet his needs within the context of his marriage. Believe me, it was a no-brainer. I saw them for only three sessions and they were happier than ever! He became more honest with his wife- only agreeing to do that which he really wanted to do and letting her know when he was disappointed about things- and she loved it. She no longer had to wonder whether he was doing things to placate her which only backfired later. Their marriage flourished. I placed a follow-up call to them a year later and they were pregnant with their second child! So much for a marriage doomed for divorce!
Another significant aspect of therapists’ training that makes marriage preservation more challenging is the idea that in order to solve problems, people must first understand what caused the problems. What this means is that if a couple is having marital difficulties, instead of helping that couple identify things they can do immediately to feel closer and more connected, the therapist first gathers lots of information about how each spouse was raised. This is unfortunate because research shows that the average time a couple experiences problems before initiating therapy is six years! Six years! So, that by the time most couples seek help, they are in desperate need of answers. They yearn for solutions. They don’t need to become experts on why they are stuck! If therapy fails to offer an immediate sense of relief or hope that solutions are possible, most couples become more despondent and more likely to throw in the towel.
Another belief inherent in most theories therapy is the idea that people will get along better if they just express their feelings openly and honestly. In general, this is true. However, when couples are really in trouble, the problem isn’t a matter of not knowing how each partner feels. In most cases, people know precisely how their partners feel- they’re totally at odds- they just don’t have a clue as to what they can do to resolve the differences between them. Therapists are often more skilled at helping people identify and express hurt and angry feelings, than they are at helping people negotiate their differences. So therapy often ends up being more like a bitch session than a blame-free, brain-storming session. And, as a result, people end up feeling their marriages are really in bad shape and not worth preserving.
I don’t mean to imply that all therapy is bad. It isn’t! Therapy can be a lifesaver! There are lots of really competent, caring therapists out there. But, if you do decide to seek professional help, you need to make sure that you are seeking the help of an individual who believes that marriages are worth saving and who has been trained specifically to work with couples. Later in this book, I will offer some guidelines for choosing a good marital therapist.
incase any one is wondering why I have so much time to type in all this stuff...stop wondering it's all right here on this site, copy & paste.
Yes, I agree there are 2 sides to every story. However, "I" have been the only one supporting our family for the last few years. His contributions have ranged from a low of $50/mo. to a high of $200/mo. and not on a consistent basis either. He has an opportunity for employment but only wants jobs that are fun or that have little supervision. In short, he doesn't feel any sort of necessity to contribute to our finances. It's ok for ME to cover everything. This is not something the counselor is pulling out of a book or case study; this is not something I'm imagining. It is reality.
Nobody has to tell me what his actions mean...they are right there in black and white. My former sister-in-law had many of the same issues with my H's brother, though not to the extent that I'm having. My H's sister has always been supported by her mom, and she's 36 years old.
