Patience Consistency Unconditional Love

[wonder]

OK, one female opinion on the PMS thing:

Don't call her then...or rather if you do call her, keep it light, even if she starts to open up. Just hear her, but don't pursue the conversation.

At this time of the month, my emotions are on alert if I have the slightest stress in my life.

Nearly every time I had an emotionally reactive experience with my H was at this time of the month. I actually started scheduling seeing him around it to avoid that.

When my life is calmer, PMS is nothing, but when there is stress, it puts my emotions just barely under my skin.

This is just one woman's experience.

wonder

[ChristineE]

Hi Seattle,

I just have time for a quick post, but you are doing great! I know the feeling that time is running out but try not to think that. You have no idea or control over what W will do.

Keep up your attitude that you can and will make yourself happy. This will take you far and will take a lot of pressure off of W (even if it is unconscious).

Also, my H kept saying that he wanted D and that we would just be good friends all through the Dbing process. He never stopped saying and reminding me of it until shortly after the "miracle" reconciliation. Don't listen and try not to analyze what she says. It won't make any sense. Just take it day by day.

My buddies here on the MB kept reminding me, each step of the way, to look back and remember where I started. Look at your progression from the beginning. Things have changed. There are many positive steps forward.

Christine

[seattlehopeful]

Hey Pam

Anytime, glad I could help with some support. It is hard for all of us to remember we are good people, desirable, attractive, and appreciated by a lot of people in our lives while we are going through this. Remember that we are all deserving of happiness, we mostly control our own happiness. Got to keep reminding ourselves.

Christine

Good to hear from you. Long time. I'm really happy for you and him and the Miracle that has been bestowed upon you. I'm still a little unclear as to how it all happened for you? Do you have a date on your thread or could you give me a short summary of how and right before?

I realize you are right about the subconscious pressure. That does allieviate the guilt. GREAT POINT. I need to be reminded of that, part of the get a life, MORE IMPORTANT than any jealousy or moving on feelings impact.

It is amazing when I look back at how far we have come and the steps along the way. I just feel so tired at times knowing these are the steps after so long. But then again, what if the Miracle were just around the corner?

[seattlehopeful]

Hi Renew and Wonder

Wonder

Yeah, the PMS thing is hard to figure out from the male perspective. I can tell she is very emotional then. I can also tell often times she tries to avoid emotional topics then or sometimes me altogehter. Like what you did.

I understand I should just listen and validate and not press or pressure. Of course very important. But she seems to reveal more at those times, even reveal implied statements of teetering but not direct statements. Like she will acknowledge somthing giving me the benefit of the doubt. So if her emotions (doubts it and maybe wants it) are both close to surface (maybe mostly its guilt?) wouldn't this be an opportunity when the wall is weak? Or are you saying the wall is weak so defense reactions will be high? So hard to tell. Clarification from the ladies please?

Renew

Good hearing from you! You have pointed out some really good things, it just shows me how far you have really come in your understanding of DR. You have really grasped it quickly.

I find if I let her do the majority of the R talking when it happens, she reachs a point sometimes where she's no longer talking so much about her choices or decisions so much as she is using me as a mirror, a way to get a read on her own thinking, and it's in those rare moments where I feel like she is completely trusting with me, completely open.

GREAT POINT. I never thought of it as a mirror. The openesss feeling I have felt at times as well. Just hard for me to get her to even talk, she might start then try to run away before it gets deeper and she starts crying more. How do you respond during these times? Do you say I'm sorry you feel that way and then rephrase or repeat what she said to you? Is she crying or sad? Do you mirror her moods and do you cry?

Part of really listening to someone you really care about is being able to listen through the words (while at the same time still paying attention to the words), to just feel how that person feels talking to you--I know it may sound a little metaphysical, but there's some truth there that's important.

Another great point, thats very important to remember. Tough to do both, words and meaning behind the words both have meaning. I'm trying to understand her feelings as well, by thinking how I would feel if I were her. So important.

Seattle, I think its good that you seem to be achieving more detachment too, but don't let that push the two of you apart. The detachment benefit is being able to stay calm and supportive when they start crazymaking, detachment is not about not caring about them. Keep up the PMA and the friendship too. The friend thing is SO important. Good friends are almost as hard to find as good spouses, and good friends can also morph into great spouses.

SO TRUE. Thanks for reminding me of all of these things. WE ALL want our spouse to be someone we trust with everything, our best friend. I'll take it as a + she continues to call me her best friend. Detachment doesn't mean I don't care for her, it just means I won't let myself be hurt by her, but I still care for her very much.

THANKS EVERYONE. All of these posts are great as I reset my goals and reanalyze where I am now. Keep the feedback coming! Woo Hoo!

[ChristineE]

Hi Seattle,

The "miracle" reconciliation happened on Jan. 23. It would be interesting to see if you think that there were clues leading up to that day. From my perspective, H was softening but he was still saying that he wanted a D and he was going to move out. He had angry outbursts and every day he said something about D. Don't get discouraged and don't hang on everything that your W says. Whenever my H said that he didn't want to be M, then I would tell myself that's how he feels RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT but tomorrow he could feel differently. These alien emotions are not stable and are very transitory.

BTW, I call my reconciliation a "miracle" because, on the day of the bomb (Nov2), I asked H if there was a chance that he would change his mind and he said that it would take a miracle. So now I believe in miracles!!!

Don't lose the faith. You've been working hard and you've come a long way. I constantly remined myself of previous goals that I had set in my life that took a long time to fulfill. For example, when I was 10yrs old I went to a concert at Carnegie Hall and decided that I wanted to play a concert there too someday. I worked EXTREMELY HARD and was very disciplined. I listened to what others told me and, six years later, I was playing a piano concerto at Carnegie Hall with an orchestra. There were others that had similar goals and most of them gave up or were not as diciplined. I stuck with it and it paid off. I believe that DBing is similar. It is really, really hard work and the results are not immediate. The goal is long-term and you have to do the work to get there. You are definitely doing the work and you are doing it well. You're on track, Seattle!

Christine

[kll1017]

Synopsis of sitch: married 11 yrs, me 41, SO 38, sons 12 & 19. Bomb (EA, dissatisfaction) 3/03. Therapy 4/03-2/04. DB began in 4/03 but (as relationship deteriorated even further) begun anew with DB counseling session on 2/18. SO has never recommitted but has never said is moving out (moving to basement is worst). I HOWEVER have created a lot of drama, taking off, saying I'm moving out, yada yada. SO HATES DRAMA. So, I'm on 3 weeks of "sobriety" in not talking about R per Dotty and effects are beginning.

Last night engaged SO in friendly computer game but said I wouldn't unless SO cheered up (very very very mopey). SO apologized and said would try (loves this computer game :-). I gave hugs, SO softened and we had the best night in many weeks. Read to me in bed this morning, made coffee, gave friendly kisses.

Thanks for letting me share a small success. I'm being UPBEAT (but not gross) CALM KIND GENEROUS and providing space as well. SO is still very down (I know waiting for my drama to hit which I REFUSE TO LET HAPPEN), apologizes for being no fun to be with, etc. I just keep behaving in a new way.

Hugs to all!

[seattlehopeful]

Will check on that date and around. Miracles really do happen! I guess looking for actions is key, why do they have such a hard time verbalizing it? Saving face? False expectations? Whatever, we know we are much smarter. We know these scared little personalities can't come right out and say it like we can.

We have to be consistent and know better than they and have faith we are the strong ones and are doing the right thing. They aren't as strong.

Overly happy and friendly can give off a condescending vibe and they can pick up on it very quickly, especially when they are looking for stuff to pick at. Balance, not overly attentive and friendly, but open to it when it suits them. Available, not pushing it. Good points from all.

[seattlehopeful]

Last interactions with WAW have been on vmail. I left her a message back Thurs night at 10:33p after my basketball game (hey we're playing for the championship! woo hoo!) to respond on her question of the tax forms. She might have called because she was nervous about meeting her old boss? Long story but she might have been looking for support? Guessing here. I left her my number and chuckled while I did it (just like she did for me) and said I could drop them off on Friday after work. Today she mentioned she giggled when she heard me leave my number like she did to me, of course we know each others numbers!

She called late on Fri at 7:33p and initially sounded like she was trying to compose herself, then went into chatterbox mode (reflex when she is uncomfortable) and rambled on how she didn't get my message yesterday and turns her cell phone off after work and to call her at the business she will be there until after 8p. Didn't know if she was calling to see if I was out on Fri night, or bec she is reaching out to be friends since she was free that night or just to talk about taxes or whatever, I don't know. Maybe testing. I was out with buddies and didn't call back. Today she said she almost went with a GF to the same place, another thing we have in common. (so much for fundamentally different)

Today I went by her business and was looking good, had PMA up, not too high, but was friendly and calm. She was talking to an employee when I went in and I browsed around until they were finished and let her approach me. This seemed to have been better than waiting in line to talk to her. More relaxed? More monitoring.

I told her I didn't get her message until late, I was a little babbling brooke, and she recipriocated with conversation. Said cool place you went (jazz club) I'll have to go there. I so wanted to say, I'll take you but I said nothing and take it as a positive she shares same interest that I did.

I made an appointment for laser hair removal consultation and she said I'll just make you a full appointment just in case. I asked about the sorority girl that I got to come in and WAW said she was really cool and WAW was excited about the prospects. I THINK THIS IS GOOD!

I asked if I could see our dog tomorrow and we scheduled a time. I asked for early, she told me NO, I was a little hurt, brushed it off, then WAW explained she has morning meeting with GF. I asked for afternoon she said yes and I got bold and asked for an overnight while bashfully smiling (I think this worked bec I communicated with body language instead of words, ever see the Pepe LePew cartoon and the girl skunk bashful, like that look). She said that might work out. I said we could figure it out tomorrow.

Seems like an pretty good interaction and conversation. I didn't overstay my welcome and was friendly but not overly. I will let her come to me in her own time, don't chase the butterfly.

We did talk about the Money Tree I gave her and she really loves it. Loves the small leaves when they grow to big ones and I can tell she is sincere when she says she loves it. I can't forget the baby steps. This detaching while being friends thing is really tough!

[renew4me]

The openesss feeling I have felt at times as well. Just hard for me to get her to even talk, she might start then try to run away before it gets deeper and she starts crying more. How do you respond during these times? Do you say I'm sorry you feel that way and then rephrase or repeat what she said to you? Is she crying or sad? Do you mirror her moods and do you cry?

She's been crying less, but I can still see the hurt when she starts to talk about the past and how she felt. Previously I had cried with her, but that didn't seem to get us anywhere, and she has said she doesn't want to cry anymore, she just wants to be happy. So the last time she was on the edge of crying I tried something different, I don't know exactly how well it worked, but it was different, and it kept her talking...

I felt really bad she was about to cry, and I think my expression showed it too, I leaned towards her just a little and I said, "W, please don't cry, I know how much it hurts, but I want to see you happy..." She stopped at like one or two tears and we lightened up the conversation a little with some humour and kept talking. We didn't resolve anything, but that wasn't really the point, I just want her to know that we can talk about anything, and I will look after her feelings when we are together.

it just shows me how far you have really come in your understanding of DR. You have really grasped it quickly.

Thank you very much. I actually reread my entire thread a couple of days ago, and I was amazed to see how far things had actually come, and how much DBing has done not only for my sitch, but for me personally as well.

[rj2]

hey Seattle-

Sounds like good interactions... good to see you back up w. a sense of humor again. Something I need to keep doing too, lol. WOW, you get to take the dog, that's HUGE! Must have really impacted her w. what you said that visit. Pressure came off. What Christine/Betsey said is true too- may go slower for those of us are S, but people's feelings do change in time. A "no" can easily turn to a "yes", when person feels no pressure and sees things they like. This isn't so cut and dried. We got to keep knowing that. Focus on the common activities and language- that's the way to do it! Great about the business too. Keep scoring the small points w. W- those add up to win the game.

So true about this detaching/friends thing... like our motivation is b/c we want to be w. them- but can't act that part. Playing the supporting side character, build up the credentials until you get cast in the lead part. I think you've been doing great inching into that spotlight

I mean, just the fact that we stick by our S's when they are going through their junk makes us the most admirable type of people. Think how much of the world is reacting to what others say/do and we are beyond that. Hey, ever write up that list of all the great things about you!