Sorry for the long post, but really looking for some help. I am hoping some of you in Piecing have been where I am at, I was the neglectful and distant one and she was always the pursuer. Much different than when we were courting and the opposite was true.
I know she wants to talk about filing in the next few days. I feel if we file, a lot of opportunity to slowly ease into it and be consistent are now lost. That is why I am leaning heavily toward doing Option 1 below. All opinions are welcome. WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
History:
1) W has unworthiness of love issues from past. W always had to compete for love with sister (good girl) in her family. W was the rebellious one (bad girl) to get attention and love from parents and family. I think she might be doing this with me now, testing my love by rebelling and running away.
2) W has past unworthiness of love, abandonment, and disrespect issues with past Rs. I unfortunately began to reinforce these by acting foolish.
3) W began to feel neglected, disrespected, and unloved from me, I am guilty I wasn’t always this way, in courting, I placed W as the top priority, treated her like a princess. Since I stopped, maybe she thinks I don’t love her anymore?
4) I didn’t say ILY enough to W. I didn’t reinforce the love by speaking in her LLs. I really do believe W feels unloved by me or I don’t love her. This is not true.
5) W has trouble communicating her deep feelings. I think it is because she is afraid of getting hurt again, afraid the answer is not what she wants. In past Rs and with me. Especially true for her love and feelings towards me, since she views my neglect as betraying her love for me. She is afraid to show that love and be vulnerable again.
6) Because of this fear of unworthiness and unloved, W communicates in passive aggressive style, making hints, comments, and oh nothings. Very difficult for me to pickup and interpret. I was dense and very clouded by alien thinking.
7) W has said ILY but INILWY. I’m SURE W still loves me, I can see it within her eyes. It is just covered up with a lot of hurt and pain, that’s why she cries a lot when she sees me.
8) When our marriage was good, W always loved me so much. W has said so many times she loves me. That look in her eyes is true deep love. I was poor at reciprocating.
9) W is very emotional and cries often whenever we are together, especially whenever something emotional comes up.
10) It is very hard for W to be around me. She tries to avoid all contact unless necessary or unless it is on her terms. She tries to rush visits. She tries to rush phone calls.
11) I was very neglectful of her and her feelings and was disrespectful of her wishes. I did this unknowingly, I did not have my eyes open. Instead I debated her feelings and argued.
12) It is very hard for her to trust that I won’t hurt her again. Especially someone that she loves so much and that caused her so much pain. She is very cautious
She has even said to LF that in order for her to consider taking me back, he would have to show me he really loved me. She also used the dog as a metaphor, you haven’t been around in three months, what makes you think you can show affection for this dog? You never loved her. You never took care of her. In reality, I did a lot for that dog.
I almost lost W before we got married. She stayed with me because of an outpouring of heartfelt emotion. One of those R talks when I told her how much I loved her. I’m thinking this is very important. If W feels she is truly loved by someone she loves, she might be willing to give us another chance like she did before.
What I’ve tried doing:
1) Initially she was very angry and yelled at me that she wasn’t in love with me anymore and too little too late. She said there was a slight chance of her returning, but if I kept chasing her she’d run further away. So I stopped, I was scared silly. I didn’t want to lose her. I went dark.
2) She seemed to respond initially, so I thought going dark was working, so I went more dark. This was the wrong thing to do. She drifted further away. She didn’t initiate phone calls anymore. She stopped initiating contact. She started seeing an OM, no long term future for her, she says just hanging out and having fun.
3) Tried showing her I got a life. This doesn’t work. She thinks I don’t love her and I show that by not putting any effort into her or her endeavors. She thinks this is more of the same for me. She thinks I continue to neglect her. She thinks if I really loved her I would chase her or pursue her.
4) Over the past couple of weeks, I tried giving more effort. Initiating contact. Supporting her business endeavors. Being more giving, supportive, and around. This has ranged from being well received to her getting irritated and I don’t need your help type statements and comments (Cat hissing?). In the past, she has said the same thing, but later when she calms down, she says thank you and is very appreciative. She is responsive enough to where I am in doubt of what I should do.
Current Status:
1) We are both in limbo and clearly in a lot of pain right now. She has many work stresses in starting a new business.
2) Papers have not been filed yet. She has asked a couple times if we are going to do this? I have said it is not what I want, but I’m willing to let you go freely if it is what you want. I think she wants to hear me profess my love to change her mind, otherwise she thinks I just don’t love her enough to fight for her.
3) I said I couldn’t file until the end of January, after my birthday. She has been respectful of that and hasn’t pressed until now. Now she wants to set a time to talk about filing.
4) She could have filed anytime up until now if she really wanted to do this. It is a no fault state and 90 day waiting period.
Options:
1) Outpouring of heartfelt emotion talk. Also have been working on a letter. This is how I was able to get her to reconsider before. This may be exactly what she needs to see from me, that I really love her more than anything else in this world, that she is the most important thing in my life. Before or after filing if it comes to that?
2) Continue to slowly support her with her business and friendship. This will be very difficult to do if she files. I will do this anyway even if I do the above. Should I not do the above and just do this?
3) Do nothing and go dark. I have already done this. She will never be convinced I love her when she is looking for statements of love and efforts of love.
4) Open pursuit, not annoyance or pressure, but clearly stating and showing to the world how much I love her and how important she is to me. Flowers, gifts, etc. She does like these type of statements and even considers them romantic. Ideas of love influenced by Hollywood, media, movies, and magazines.
I would rather tell her and show her how I feel from my heart, I think this is the “Real Giving” that she wants, this is how she feels love. This way I know I have done and said what is true in my heart, I am being open and vulnerable and being a real man. What else have I got to lose? I’ve tried everything else.
Don't go by just one opinion (hey everyone! the guy needs feedback!)...but I like your idea of a letter...delivered with her favourite flowers?
I know, I know..pursuing, over the top...but from what you've written this IS her love language. And I sense you feeling that you've little left to lose.
What is the worst possible outcome from this gesture? She gets mad...too little too late...I believed this bull the last time (you'll HAVE to adress this!)...stop pursuing me!
Well...so what! You have a D on the table.
Especially if your letter were to not only spell out how much you DO love her, how you SEE that your neglect tore her apart...what you're willing to do/change to prove yourself...but it should also be No pressure...leave it open to a continued friendship, should that be her desire.
THANKS A LOT FOR THE POST. I don't think I have much to lose. I do need to clarify all of my actions so she knows I HAVE been working on our R, but trying to respect her words in wanting some space because it is hard for her to see me. The whole dog comment really threw me off, I thought it was obvious I loved her, but this is more of the same for me. Assuming she knows I love her.
She has NEVER said don't pursue. She intially said right after the bomb she was uncomfortable with me around her business, like she wants to show everyone she can do it on her own. After the dog comment, I told her I wasn't coming around because I was trying to listen to her, and that wasn't what I was doing before. She claims to have never said don't come around. Forgetful? Mind games? Or she never really meant it so she doesn't remember?
I do need to phrase it in a no pressure type of way. Still show consistent love and care even if she wants to file. Then hope she will give us a chance before the paperwork is final.
Pursuing is one thing I haven't tried yet. The major thing still. That is also what got her to reconsider the last time. When she saw how much I DO LOVE HER, and HOW MUCH she means to me. Does this make sense? Totally different from the norm, but this is totally different for me.
She just LM to schedule a time to talk about us. She didn't even say D. She can't even say that word, she has to say the legal phrase. What is up there?
Buddy, sometimes the grand gestures DO work. I've seen it first hand. Not on the bb, but with a real life friend.
This guy had pretty much ignored, insulted, yelled at (and got a lot of it right back), messed up...his W left.
It hit him about three days later...just what he'd lost.
He sat down and wrote a 40 page letter...from a man who'd never written one before...he laid it all out, how he saw that he'd hurt her, how arrogant and selfish he'd been, he said he prayed for a chance to just court her again, but that he understood if she never spoke to him again. He sent her favourite flowers.
He went to her family and FRIENDS in PERSON to apologize for having done so poorly as an H to her. That's when I hugged him, took a drive and gave him my copy of DR!
Now on the other hand, S, my pal Darkness (who was a fixture on the bb...sigh) made a few grand gestures, gifts which his W liked, but which she DID find pursuing. I don't believe they are back together.
What does your gut tell you on this? Weigh it out...
If you DO make a grand gesture (or the letter) and she seems uncomfortable and really NOT into the idea...can you handle it?
On the other hand...can you walk through this NOT having told her how you really feel, and then wonder what might have been?
OMG you know my wife! LOL. Sorry for the levity. Your situation is so close to mine that it isn't even funny. EXCEPT one thing. She has actually told someone what you would have to do in order for her to take you back. Which seems to mean that she is still OPEN to reconciliation.
A lot of this seems as my wife, she has her own self esteem issues which is a difficult thing to deal with for sure. And I personally find it taxing to deal with someone with self esteem issues. But LOVE somehow helps us over look this flaw.
never the less, Ok by what you said, she is VERY conflicted and to my uneducated mind seems that she is testing you more than anything else. Allow me to address the issues as follows.
1) Initially she was very angry and yelled at me that she wasn’t in love with me anymore and too little too late. She said there was a slight chance of her returning, but if I kept chasing her she’d run further away. So I stopped, I was scared silly. I didn’t want to lose her. I went dark.
You seem to have been on to something in going dark. Though I THINK you may have over compensated. Instead of going black perhaps GRAY might work a little better for you. Again, I am in the same sitch pretty much minus the OM (That I KNOW of) and the W even thinking of getting back together. So you SEEM to be in a better place. There is still hope.
I think an emotional baptism might be a mistake as it seems that it may put way too much pressure on her. How about just placing a single flower on her car. Like a yellow rose. So that in the morning when she leaves for work there it is. With a simple card that just says ME.
I think that little things like that in the sitch you find yourself in would go a lot further than some MAJOR event. And don't go overboard with that. Just once or twice.
Maybe have her favorite meal delivered to her at work. But space it out. Don't want to seem too over eager. And never mention anything to her about it. I do believe that she will contact you.
Also ALWAYS agree. AGREE with ANYTHING and everything she says. For instance. She says. "You never loved me!" Your natural reaction MAY be to say "But of course I did" Instead try saying. "You're so right. I never loved you the right way. The way I KNOW that you wanted/needed, and unfortunatly it took this to make me realize it. But thank you for helping me see the light."
I know it seems that you are being the whimp. But how can she argue with someone who is agreeing with her. Also you MAY find that she will start taking your side and defending you. You dropped your defenses and that will force her to drop hers. But you have to do it ALL the time. Chances are you will win!
I am guessing that once you have accomplished the hardest part, getting her into a place where she feels comfortable with the thought of you and her, and you have won her back by making the changes in yourself that then you can suggest some counceling to help her by pass her self-esteem and past relationship issues.
But please count yourself lucky that she has at least THOUGHT of getting back together with you. Remember the movie what about Bob? Well there is a deep message in there that you can take .... BABY STEPS.
Also the fear you mentioned may be because being a man you are doing what so many of us do and that is try and FIX the problem for her. When she talks to you do not ask her questions. Just agree with her. Look her in the eye if she is present with you and do not be distracted by anything else around you. Don't ask questions. She may see this as you challenging her when in your mind you may be trying to show her you care by getting as much information as you can on the subject. She wont see it that way. To her you are trying to be controlling.
Also NEVER NEVER NEVER bring up the OM... EVER. And this may be tough because our imaginations run wild. But don't do it. It shows jealousy. And that is WEAKNESS.
Again I say these things as things that I have learned from my own sitch. Difference is that in my case wife left and not even 10 days later filed the paperwork not to mention lied to me about having filed it. So you are still in pretty good shape.
The Im NILWY you thing is NOT the REAL reason. It NEVER is. Think of it this way if you will...
She says, I'm NILWY anymore. The first things you think to say is Why not? What happened? Well if she answers the questions, and you say OK I am willing/able to change those things then her reason for getting a D are now gone. So as best you can ignore that (For lack of better expression) How about saying to her, "Yes I know you aren't ILWM anymore and how can I blame you. I ALWAYS neglected you, I wasn't always very nice to you. I treated you like crap. And I am a terrible person for doing that to you. I don't blame you for how you feel. I would feel the same way also." Then just shut up. SCREAM it into your head SHUT UP!!!!!!!! Watch the look on her face. It will be priceless. Confusion and love both at the same time. You took the wind right out of her sails. She might even begin to defend you. I have been practicing this technique with a lot of different people these past couple of weeks, and I am AMAZED at the results.
What would it hurt to give it a try? Just do not over compensate. I hope you find SOME of this helpful. And I sure as hell hope that you have better success than I am having. But I think that you will since she has stated what it would take for you to win her back. Just remember You can buy a woman a 10 Caret diamond ring but it will NEVER mean half as much as the little ring you got for her from the gumball machine because that is all that you could afford when you asked her to be with you for the rest of your life.
But then again that might just be me. If you have any questions feel free to email me directly at dj@blackkatservers.com
But I am also going to restate that you should always agree with her. Also, Listen to her with no distractions - turn off the TV, Radio, anything else and look at her an REALLY LISTEN.
Also be happy, upbeat, Friendly, etc around her - make any contact with a plesant time for her. If each time she contacts you she feels good and your happiness rubs off on her, and when that contact ends she feels better than when it started, then there will be no deturrent in contacting you the next time and she may even look forward to the next contact.
I see some positives and alot to build on, but it will be a hard road. But then, if it was really easy then it would not mean as much. The truly great things in life are worth the effort to get them.
Thanks for the follow up, I definitely need it. Been very on edge lately, close to mental and emotional overload. Tough for me to be so supportive and unconditionally caring when she still goes hot and cold. She is much more receptive to seeing me now, cold spells aren't as cold, but she is still mysterious etc. Much more willing to be in contact with me since I've been so giving and supportive, she will respond, but initiating contact is a one way street, so does initiating effort.
Unlike most, I never had the outpouring of ILY or constant begging and pleading. I found that she was running further the little I did, so I stopped. This is what worked when we were courting, what worked when we almost split before, and what may work this time. This is what my gut and my heart tell me to do.
I'm sick of applying principals that are against my heart and intuition. I thought I should've done this earlier instead of going more dark, and I was right, she found a distraction in OM and is trying to numb herself further.
So I think she is looking for some reassurance that I do love her before she is willing to openly consider reconciling. Before she is willing to risk getting hurt, she wants to feel secure I love her and wouldn't hurt her again. I also think she wants to save face to everyone she has told I was such a horrible husband (I don't know how much of this she has really done) justify it by how much effort I've put in so everyone can see.
Since I haven't done this yet and she is pressing to file, what do I have to lose? At least I will know that I have tried everything I could and have spoken from deep down in my heart.
I will of course focus on understanding how she feels hurt and agree that I was the one that caused her this pain, and how sorry I am to have done all those things to cause her so much pain, especially a person I love so much.
Thanks for the opinions, I really do appreciate and need them right now.
Quote: I think an emotional baptism might be a mistake as it seems that it may put way too much pressure on her. How about just placing a single flower on her car. Like a yellow rose. So that in the morning when she leaves for work there it is. With a simple card that just says ME.
I think that little things like that in the sitch you find yourself in would go a lot further than some MAJOR event. And don't go overboard with that. Just once or twice.
Maybe have her favorite meal delivered to her at work. But space it out. Don't want to seem too over eager. And never mention anything to her about it. I do believe that she will contact you.
Yes, I've made major inroads here. Been doing them for the past month and it has helped a lot. She is even friendly to me now and is not as cold as before. It has been working. However, I am running out of time since she presses for filing, so I have a choice to either lay out how much I love her now, or never. Also, see above for history on what has worked with her in the past. She is a drama queen, loves attention, and loves to be in the spotlight and on a pedastal. I think she wants everyone to know I'm crawling back, I'm not debating the merits of this now, just trying to get to my goal.
Quote: Also ALWAYS agree. AGREE with ANYTHING and everything she says. For instance. She says. "You never loved me!" Your natural reaction MAY be to say "But of course I did" Instead try saying. "You're so right. I never loved you the right way. The way I KNOW that you wanted/needed, and unfortunatly it took this to make me realize it. But thank you for helping me see the light."
I know it seems that you are being the whimp. But how can she argue with someone who is agreeing with her. Also you MAY find that she will start taking your side and defending you. You dropped your defenses and that will force her to drop hers. But you have to do it ALL the time. Chances are you will win!
Exactly my plan, she does not talk about her feelings easily. She keeps them buried deep within and I think thats why she is so stressed and has occasional health problems. She has moved from angry to sad and crying so I think the ice wall may be melting and thinner than before. I hope I can draw her out to having an OPEN conversation by doing this. Bud do you guys know what I mean by a person who does this? Self made obstacles are illogical to me.
Quote: She says, I'm NILWY anymore. The first things you think to say is Why not? What happened? Well if she answers the questions, and you say OK I am willing/able to change those things then her reason for getting a D are now gone. So as best you can ignore that (For lack of better expression) How about saying to her, "Yes I know you aren't ILWM anymore and how can I blame you. I ALWAYS neglected you, I wasn't always very nice to you. I treated you like crap. And I am a terrible person for doing that to you. I don't blame you for how you feel. I would feel the same way also." Then just shut up. SCREAM it into your head SHUT UP!!!!!!!! Watch the look on her face. It will be priceless. Confusion and love both at the same time.
Good point, I will try my best to make her feel safe and comfortable to talk. Your words are what I have thought about saying myself. So I'm glad not crazy and have reassurances I'm saying the right things.
I might take you up on your offer to email you. Thanks again.
