Someone please explain this to me, because I sure can't figure it out.
Why would a woman spend practically the whole night cuddling up and clinging to her husband "because it feels so good to be close" (not that she is in the least interested in or willing toward sex)...
Then the next day at the first opportunity suggest that you drive to the distant outlet mall to finish the Christmas shopping "so we can spend some time together without the kids"...
And then spend the entire ninety minute drive dumping on said husband on how everything he does is wrong and has been for the entire twenty years of marriage???
Her concrete suggestion to solving all these problems, by the way, is "Just FIX IT!"
THEN not seem to be able to understand why said husband doesn't exhibit a positive reaction to this bolt-out-of-the-blue dumping???
AND THEN goes ahead and shops the mall pretty much as if nothing had happened???
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Essentially, there wasn't one. She didn't want to get back into the subject after the shopping, and when we got home one of the kids was sick and she was taking care of that.
Also, based on past experience, if I'd continued to pursue it she would have quickly shifted anything I said around to reflect back on all my faults and and everything I do wrong. I really wasn't interesed in a second extended harangue in one day.
By the way, I'm not able to get on the board that often right now, so if I don't turn around an answer right away it's not because I've lost interest, but just haven't had the chance.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
VA, I'm going to send you back into the fray to address your concerns with your wife. YOUR concern at this point, not hers. The way she harangues at you gets on your nerves. I too would put it in the category of disrespectful behavior. Bring her behavior up with her, lovingly and respectfully...essentially model the behavior you would like to see from her when it comes to voicing complaints. You could smooth the way for better listening on her part by saying you have heard her concerns and will be working on them. But you have a concern about HER behavior you want to deal with now.
You actually have two concerns...haranguing and not being specific about how to address the problems she has with you. It might work best to deal with one at a time. Kinda like modeling how not to harangue .
If she typically has a problem of bringing up your faults when you address hers, stop it in its tracks right at that moment. Let her know you know she has concerns about you, but YOU too have concerns about her and you want her to hear you. If she seems unwillingly to listen to you and hear you at that time, let her know that you can't have this conversation with her at this time. That you need a time when YOU know that YOU will be heard. Then walk away.
Perhaps she comes up with excuses for her behavior. Repeat yourself..."The way you bring up concerns you have with me hurts our relationship." Don't get drawn into her excuses.
I don't know why your wife did what she did. Only she can answer that question. The why may not even matter. The issue is she gets away with it. Confront her lovingly and firmly, but if you don't want her to do it anymore, you're going to have to confront her. Probably more than once.
Oh yeah, be specific about what she can do to fix the problem...e.g. one problem at a time, make an "appointment" to discuss concerns rather than just throwing them out, being specific about how to deal with them...just some examples.
I agree with what MPT says. I just want to add that a great book on talking with people like your W is "Crucial Conversations" by Kerry Patterson. I suffer from the "deer in the headlights" problem in that I can come up with 20 responses to my W's statements, just not at the time I'm confronted with them. Good luck...she sounds difficult.
"Deer in the headlights" is a good description. Particularly when she gets to the "Why don't you just fix it?" part, often the only response that comes to mind at the time is "Why don't you just get a sex drive?" Knowing just how unhelpful that would be, I keep my mouth shut.
I tried stopping the conversation and scheduling an appointment several months ago. It worked -- until it was time for the appointment. Then, she quickly became all upset because I tried to pick up where we left off, and she expected that I would have worked up solutions in the intervening 24 hours (that I haven't been able to come up with in nearly 20 years of marriage).
I do have a copy of Crucial Conversations; hopefully I can get it read over Christmas break. Thanks for your suggestions; I'm still open for any others, as well as any (particularly female) insights into the whole episode.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Quote: Someone please explain this to me, because I sure can't figure it out.
Why would a woman spend practically the whole night cuddling up and clinging to her husband "because it feels so good to be close" (not that she is in the least interested in or willing toward sex)...
Then the next day at the first opportunity suggest that you drive to the distant outlet mall to finish the Christmas shopping "so we can spend some time together without the kids"...
And then spend the entire ninety minute drive dumping on said husband on how everything he does is wrong and has been for the entire twenty years of marriage???
Her concrete suggestion to solving all these problems, by the way, is "Just FIX IT!"
THEN not seem to be able to understand why said husband doesn't exhibit a positive reaction to this bolt-out-of-the-blue dumping???
AND THEN goes ahead and shops the mall pretty much as if nothing had happened???
Guilty, guilty, guilty as charged... sigh (working hard not to do this anymore) I have absolutely NO clue if this applies to your wife, however, this is how and why I do it. Just one woman's insight on this bad behavior.
ignorance, stress relief, saftey, fear, frustration, overexpcetation, circular thinking, clarity of issues, everything that hurts, pain, sadness, depression, habit, unable to break the cycle, feeling that its the only way to get heard, fighting is better than empty feeling, rejection, lashing out, hurt the one causing the pain, exahustion, snarky get even, old stuff still hurts, guilt, hope, sorrow, pain pain pain captive audience
Thats my emotional word assossiation to the feelings involved in these emotional storms. The reasons I can feel fine in the aftermath and "ready to shop as if nothing happened" is because a great deal of pressure is released, I cleared out a great deal of emotional baggage that's been bothering and building in me, I've been heard (hopefully), I've thoroghly and completely communicated the extent of ALL (expectantly)and given the nesseceassry info for change, it's now in the hands of someone else (i.e. fix it) relief that I don't have to carry the burden any longer because I HAVE expressed myself, because I've expressed the list of worries, pain, problems, etc... it feels like I've done something to address it. Something has been done, and now I can move on to the more pleasant things in life and back on track.
Just like sometimes a good cry and ice cream and chocolate and book will make everything all right with the world and I can cope again.
Now, objectively speaking I realize that most of that stuff is utter nonsense, but we are talking emotion and feeling here and perception which while it may not be real, it IS reality therefore it is real. Sometimes I really do need to vent, othertimes the venting just feeds the cycle and problem. The trick is learning not to attack. Sometimes I know I'm attacking and despreatly trying NOT to attack, but I just don't know any other way of doing it, sometimes I don't even realize I'm attacking. I just want to be heard and understood and feel that my feelings matter and that my spouse is willing to do something about it.
I know that when I over emote and attack that my h doesn't get my points at all. The only message he gets is that he is wrong, he hurt me, that he is a lousy H. WRONG!! Not what I wanted to convey at all (k some of it) Usually he misses the main points of my rants completely, mostly due to overload -- way toooooo many points --- and also busy protecting himself from me, to understand, I really do get that it's hard to hear what a person is saying when you are dodging rocks. Often the real points are along the lines of I'm feeling unloved, I need more verbal appreciation, please be more involved in parenting the children (with specifics), this is a conflict, what we are doing isn't working, help me figure a way out, don't leave me stranded alone, be my friend, be my partner, be proud of me, love me, even though I can't stand myself either.
What works for me is writing it down. Exactly what are the issues/problems, are they masking something else. Questions help, what am i really mad about, what am i afraid of, what am i feeling, what is the anger, fear and frustration covering, and here's the biggie, What do I really want, NOT what I Don't want. Forcing myself to envision what I want my end result to be helps.
For example the statement, I want to have an affair. That is a impulse statement not what I really want. What I want is what I think the affair will give me. What I want is to feel loved, cherished, connected, valued, excited, and to feel loving, and what I really really want is to feel that way from and towards my H.
Sometimes the storm happens because I haven't taken care of me at all, quiet time used for nurturing myself, exercise, eating, feeling overwhelmed by too much to do and I'm doing a lousy job at it, and I feel guilty about how much I should be doing but am not doing (trust me this list is endless not to mention rediculous examined in the light of day). question, does your wife know how to nurture herself and does she know what you can do to nurture her?
Ask her if she just needs to vent for a bit, and don't take it personally (even if it is personal)
Sometimes I need help to stop spiralling out of control.
I think it's better when my H doesn't let me pound him even if that means I get a bit mad for a while. I have more respect for him when he lets me know that my behavior is NOT ok, and is disrespectful. Sometimes I don't realize how bad it is at the time because we are so use to this dance. Be gentle yet firm. One time that really worked we were all set to have a great date and for whatever reason I got off on a emotional tangent that was obviously gonna spiral out of control, and he just lovingly said, that we should shift and get off that topic, since it was upsetting me and would lead to worse, and lets just concentrate on having a good time. It took me several false starts to get off the topic, and I kept vering back to it, even though I AGREEED NOT to, and didn't want to go there, however we did have a good date. I've also given him several ways to stop me mid rant that work pretty much 90% of the time.
Hope some of this is helpful, if not just writing this has helped clarify a few things for me.
I appreciate you sharing your insights. I think she is experiencing much of what you describe. Unfortunately she seems unwilling to do much of anything about it except wait for me to change. I am working on things, but the instant transformation just isn't in the cards, and anything short of that is insufficient. As part of this most recent tirade, she even threw Yoda at me (from The Empire Strikes Back) -- "Do, or do not. There is no try."
Quote: Sometimes the storm happens because I haven't taken care of me at all, quiet time used for nurturing myself, exercise, eating, feeling overwhelmed by too much to do and I'm doing a lousy job at it, and I feel guilty about how much I should be doing but am not doing (trust me this list is endless not to mention rediculous examined in the light of day). question, does your wife know how to nurture herself and does she know what you can do to nurture her?
I honestly don't know that she knows how to nurture herself. I have a hard enough time trying to remind her to take her prescription meds. Periodically she'll get to trying to improve her nutrition, but after about a week she won't take any of the vitamins or other supplements we've purchased for her. Beyond that, anything has to be her idea -- the last time I suggested something that I thought might help (I think it was checking out the new local "Curves" gym), she let me know in no uncertain terms that she was a big girl and could take care of herself. Well, I sure wish that she would, then, becuase it doesn't seem to me that she is or will.
Her annual "vacation" to a bird watching convention consists largely of all the largely behind-the-scenes administrative & logistics that keeps her up until 11 and then gets her up between 1 and 3 in the morning for a week. Then she's wiped out for the next week after she gets home. So I try to keep everything running, for which she does give some limited verbal expressions of appreciation, but frankly I'm often feeling past the point where verbal is enough. Even then, the appreciation tends to be mixed with descriptions of what I've forgotten or missed.
I spend 15-30 minutes several nights a week rubbing her sore back/neck/feet, but that often only helps while I'm doing it. In the meantime I'm trying not to resent the fact that despite all my efforts trying to meet her needs, she's only willing to spend maybe that much time once a month making love. It's becoming increasingly difficult to do.
Well, I don't want to get any more depressing than this already is. Let me ask you one final question: What triggers these "storms?" I'll admit I'm not the most observant husband in the world, but everything was just fine until we were on the highway, and then she just cut loose. Is it the captive audience? And what am I supposed to do about it -- avoid being alone with her? I guess I'd better stop and go to bed; I've got a lot to try and do around the house tomorrow while she's gone doing a Christmas Bird Count. Any additional words of insight and/or advice are appreciated.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
Wow! and again Wow! You sound darn near perfect to me. But then, my primary love language is touch. It looks like you are doing alot of very supportive essential things. It also sounds like it's time to refine and figure out how you can get more leverage. The 'Work Smarter not Harder' idea. You want to be supportive in the most effective manner. While the superbomb of support is great and wonderful, it's not something that can realistically be maintained longterm, especially when you are currently coming from a place of severe deprivation. Serious detective work is in order. Journaling is a great idea, and keep track of the clues as you find them. Please please please, find out her love language. It's quite possible to be incredibly supportive and appreciated, and still totally MISS the Boat!!
Quote: Let me ask you one final question: What triggers these "storms?" I'll admit I'm not the most observant husband in the world, but everything was just fine until we were on the highway, and then she just cut loose. Is it the captive audience? And what am I supposed to do about it -- avoid being alone with her? I guess I'd better stop and go to bed; I've got a lot to try and do around the house tomorrow while she's gone doing a Christmas Bird Count. Any additional words of insight and/or advice are appreciated.
Some of it truly is hormonal and unpredictable. Often I've already tried several other times and ways to express my concerns and address the issues. I do notice that sometimes I think I'm being extremely clear and specific, that what I'm attempting to communicate is blatently obvious, only to find out - it wasn't. For me fatigue and hunger are also triggers, once I'm fed or slept, suddenly I'm rational again. So H has learned to bring me food offerings, which works. I have learned to ask myself if I might be losing it because I need food. Food does wonders for dispensing the shadow problems, and I'm much more proactive, reasonable, objective and able to address the more substantial problems.
What are her rewards for acting this way?
Mine are/were Attention - Hear ME - Listen, maybe I can POUND some action or sense out of him. Hurt and pain and reaction is better than NOTHING.
Another HUGE payoff for me was even though it drives my H to shutdown and hurts him and our relationship in the long run. Short run it often works, H hears me when I cry, he gets that it's SERIOUS when I spin out of control, and he changes his behavior. He stops neglecting me. He, for a short time, remembers and does the things I've asked/demanded. Quite frankly he treats me better overall. For some reason he has to see the depth of my pain/fury for me to be real to him, even though it scares hurts and causes him to emotionally retreat from me to protect himself.
Another payoff is that I have rarely gotten any meaningful necessary emotional information from my H without a tempest. Either in the midst of or from the aftermath healing and trying to figure it out.
Since she's using the word TRY against you, I recomend dropping it from your vocabulary. The answer is you are DOing, you are in the process of learning this new skill, you are making progress with abc, before you would 123, now you can def. Ask for patience, ask for forgiveness (if apologies help- not if they hurt your case)Ask her what you are doing right, and for her to "catch you doing well" since that will help you get and stay on the right path. She already lets you know when it isn't working. See if She will let you know when it IS working.
WARNING signs to watch for - recurring themes or subjects what is she fretting over
Thanks for your suggestions, and sorry I've been away from the boards for so long. I just have a few minutes now, but wanted to let you know I'm working on your suggestions. She's working on some of her "stuff", too, and things overall have been better these past few weeks. Hopefully I won't get shot down again in the near future.
HERE is Edward Bear, coming downstairs now, bump, bump, bump, on the back of his head, behind Christopher Robin...sometimes he feels that there really is another way [of coming downstairs], if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it.
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