Carlotta, I have a comment and suggestion about the situation you are describing, where the other person inspires your desire only when they are new and somehow not "secure" per se. I think desire comes from 2 places, sometimes even at the same time. It comes from your head and from your body (no mind attached ). The body is programmed to prefer the new object of desire, the new guy, for new and improved genes. The other is our mind, where we just think ourselves to lust, because this person is so special and funny and so many other reasons that makes feel all nice inside. It seems to me that you are not actively doing the mind lust thing. See, this is what my H cannot, for the life of him understand. That someone can get turned on just by focusing on all the things that makes that person desirable and going from cold engines to blazzing in not time (well , that is whith practice..I guess it will take a bit longer to the "apprentice" ) Sometimes people forget that they can get themselves in the mood that way, AND that they have done it before, just not in a consious way. The physical call of the jungle is just not that reliable for most people and it does fades with time and familiarity, but the other engine starter never fails if you do this exercise, just focus on what is sexy, nice , beautiful even , of that person and start thinking sexy thoughts and looking at those eyes paying attention like you haven't seen them everyday. All the things that attracted you in the beginning are still there, you just have to look , really pay attention again. It is just doing something that comes naturally and without thinking when all is new, now is something you do on purpose, same tool, just a much more in control driver : yourself. It works for me when the body is not in the mood to start with, but it jumps in the wagon soon after, that is also true desire.
"Are you saying that familiarity breeds contempt? Like, seeing someone burp, for instance, takes the mystique and sexiness out of the picture for you?"
Nope, not at all. I NEVER felt contempt for my X. I always thought he was one of the handsomest men I ever knew. He never disgusted me in any way. However, after the first thrill died down, I don't think I found him sexy. Not sure I would find anyone sexy that I knew really well.
"Furthermore, do you think this is a fair way to approach romantic relationships? That the instant that person becomes human, it's all over?"
Fair has nothing to do with it! This is feelings, not actions, right? You feel what you feel! And I think my X is the one who felt that the instant I became human, it was all over. I NEVER thought it was all over and never wanted it to be. Well, until very recently when it just got too painful to have feelings for him anymore, due to his obvious love for OW. Which is exactly the way HE probably felt all those years we were married and he felt rebuffed.
And of course I totally agree with your observation that it is morally acceptable for me to socialize with other people but not for him to sleep with other people. That said, I will state that I did not consider his infideltiy a marriage-breaker. I was more than willing to forgive and to explore what went wrong, even though I was woefully unprepared to understand and it would have taken a very skilled counselor to help us. My X was the one who had already emotionally left me by that time.
I had no problem "performing" sexually. My X and I were intimate on a regular, pretty frequent basis, although lots of time I would just as soon have been reading a book!
Part of the problem maybe was that I just never had time to myself. I worked, I came home and did almost all of the childcare and household stuff. X was a workaholic and so we didn't spend much time in each other's presence.
Maybe if we'd had more of those days pre-kids to just have fun together, the sparks would have flown. But I doubt it. And I don't think he could ever feel my love without those sparks, even though it surely was there.
Carlotta, Thanks for that response. I surely do wish things had turned out differently in your situation.
You wrote that you wouldn't find anyone sexy that you knew really well. My question is: Why not? I don't understand this, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse! I understand that things are hotter in the beginning of a new relationship; I think that both HD and LD people would agree on this. Didn't you find things about your XH beautiful and alluring, even though they were familiar and not new?
Quote: I had no problem "performing" sexually. My X and I were intimate on a regular, pretty frequent basis, although lots of time I would just as soon have been reading a book!
You have just described the problem perfectly. HD spouses will always know when you are performing versus really "Desiring" to be there. For men ( I know that this is DEVASTATING TO THE RELATIONSHIP). My wife treats me the exact same way. I want to make love to someone that actually WANTS to make love to me, not "Meet my Need". Any Hooker can perform like you describe. If your man senses that you do not desire sex with him, he will still do it to get his rocks off, but he will also give you a big black mark for "Rejecting Him as a human being". This will also be cummulative, so the more often this happens, the closer he is to finding someone else to meet his need for sex. Don't initate sex with him enough, you will now have just crushed his self esteem and again, "Rejected him as a human being".
I have read most parts of both books that B. DeAngilis has written about men and women. I think I can understand women a little better now, but still have a long way to go. The problem for both sexes is that the way they need to act is the OPPOSITE of what they want. Men need to provide security, conversation, sharing, compassion, etc.. in NON-sexual ways to their spouses(find their more female traits). Women on the other hand, must act more with their Male traits. They must put HEAVY, heavy , heavy emphasis on SEX in a relationship. Read the book about men, VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING RELATES TO SEX TO MEN (at least HD men).
Now that I kind of understand the problem, I still have no clue how to fix it. I do know that if the wife does not COMPLETELY understand this issue, their really is NO hope of solving the HD/LD issue. I find it almost impossible to just try to explain the simple fact to my wife that sex is an EMOTIONAL need for men. How to explain that?
Sorry if I am doing more of my negative venting again. This is one thing I am trying to change about me, when I am with my wife, just to be upbeat and pleasant no matter how bad I feel in the relationship.
Quote: The difference is that you can socialize with people without your husband and it is socially and morally acceptable. It is not acceptable for your husband to get his need met with other people.
Yes, she can socialize with other people and I can have emotionally deep conversations with other people. I will be drawn closer to them...but those conversations with other people will do nothing for my emotional connection with my H. In fact, there is a real danger of being drawn away from him if those conversations are more fulfilling than what I might have with him. In order to maintain the emotional connection with my H, those kinds of conversations must occur with him.
When I read SSM and read some of the posts here, I interpreted Michelle and some HD people to be saying that sex helped with the emotional closeness. It was the primary way that they nurture their emotional connection with their spouse. Without sex they start to feel less close and less loving towards their spouse. It wasn't so much that they needed sex and their partner was the only one who was allowed to provide it.
I could easily relate to that. I understand a strong desire for emotional closeness. Deep, personal, mutual conversation is what draws me closer to another person. I was easily able to translate that into "This must be what sex does for the HD person." BINGO! "Of course, dear, you want to have sex?! No problem! Let's go!"
An HD person and an LD person may speak different languages when it comes to how they make connections. What they share, hopefully, is the common language of desire for mutual closeness.
Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. I read with interest everything that Carlotta has wrote and the replys.
Part of what Carlotta said I can understand - about losing desire for someone after awhile - but those were people I casually dated - wasn't even interested enough in them to have a sexual relationship with them. (I've only had a sexual relationship with my ex husband and my husband of 21 years)
Carlotta, you said
Quote: He wanted CONSTANT touching and affection from me during the day. It felt onerous and smothering to me. His way of touching me was sometimes irritating. I *would* spontaneously hug him, tell him things I loved about him, but his feeling was often, "You're just saying that." I felt that nothing I did was EVER enough. He felt like a bottomless pit of need.
Some people you can never please - it is them, not you. It sounds as if you did try to please your husband and as you said he never spoke up about this being an issue. It may not have really been an issue - he was just one of those people that if you'd been perfect that would have annoyed him to. My ex was a bottomless pit too and I was very affectionate and a HD spouse too but it wasn't enough for him. He could just consume all I had and didn't really give anything back. It sounds like your spouse was a very needy person and probably had you been a HD spouse he would have gripped about that too. My ex was that way. He was constantly whining about something: my mom left me, my dad died, I didn't get to play basketball my senior year, yada yada. Nothing I did or said made a dent in this child/man. He was constantly playing on my sympathies with his sad story until I finally told him one day that he wasn't the only one with childhood issues! So don't beat yourself up too much over his bottomless pit needs.
He smothered me to the point that I wanted to run from him. He was obcessively jealous and would have fits if I even spoke to someone casusally or looked out the car window for heaven's sake.
Having said that you said that you would just as soon read a book as make love. (I adore reading myself and read just about anything I can get my hands on.) Do you get more pleasure from reading a book than making love? Is the pleasure factor about the same? Did you husband pull the old bottomless pit of need before he wanted to make love? That would be a desire killer.
To me life without sex with the man that I love is like a day without sunshine. I know that sex is not the end all be all of existance but it makes existance pretty darn nice. Nothing makes me feel better, more loved, more loving, content, happy, satisfied, etc. than to make love to my husband and by the same token nothing makes me sadder, madder, unhappy and unsatisfied than when our sex life is derailed.
I have read about the bottomless pit of need issue. My wife feels I am clingy. The problem is that I want to cuddle and touch with her and she does not want any. I am a physical touch person. ALL love must be given to me in the form of touching. My wife HATES to touch me, so all touching in our relationship is from me to her, so in effect, I am clingy and become the bottomless pit of need. But what to do? I now find myself doing everything in my power to stop from trying to touch her, co I am not so clingy. The bottomless pit of need is a man who is DIEING for effection from their wives and very likely is not getting enough. It is a vicious circle. I don't know the answer. It's like Michelle says in SSM, many women that lose sexual desire also lose the desire for ALL intimacy and touching. Dr. Laura says that women like this CAN NOT be fixed adn tells the husbands they will probably have to divorce if they want affection. I am still hoping to somehow restore my wifes desire for intimacy and sex, but I really have my doubts that it is possible. It seems so much luck of the draw, men that marry HD wives are probably going to have great marraiges, men that marry LD women are going to be faced with incredible hardship, and VERY LIKELY divorce, only because LD women speak a different love language that HD men truely can not understand (and therefore the love disappears).
Like Dr. Laura says on the radio, having a great relationship with a man is easy, just Feed Him, Sex Him, and NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tell him you do not desire him. THAT'S IT. MEN ARE SIMPLE. It's us guys that have to fix EVERY FREAKIN' thing under the sun in order to have a happy relationship that have the tough time.
Quote: If there has been good give and take between us, and my needs are in relative good order, then when he asks for sex, then I can be game.
This is one of the VERY big problems in HD/LD relationships. Do LD spouses ask EVERYTIME for EVERY emotional need they have to get that emotional need met? I really doubt this. But you LD spouses are grading our performance on meeting your emotional needs when I will bet that 90% of the time, you don't ASK for YOUR emotional need to be met. Us HD guys are supposed to KNOW what needs need to be met, and this is fair enough. But the opposite is ALSO true for the LD spouse. It is the whole desire issue again. It's also not always about frequency, it's who asks. In order for a realtionship to work, the LD spouse must meet the need for sex and intimacy most of the time with out being asked. If us HD spouses have to ask for sex everytime, then we are back to feeling like we are children begging the Mommies for candy at the candy store (And WE ALL hate this). True love requires that the wife SEEK sex from her husband. If you do not SEEK sex from your husband, the message you are sending is that of REJECTION of HIM weather you ment to or not.
Realistically, I do not expect a women to seek it even half the time, but it should probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of once or twice a month where the LD spouse AGRESSIVELY pursues an INTENSE lovemaking session, NOT A QUICKIE.
Afterall,are we not to meet our spouses needs willingly, cheerfully, wantingly, and without being asked (at least most times)? It's almos tlike a double standard, the LD spouse should not have to ask for their needs, but the one and only need a HD spouse has must be ASKED for? Us HD spouses are so simple, our needs are SEX and Intimacy, so why does the LD spouse not constantly think in those terms. Look at it the other way, us HD spouses have to think of hundreds of possible needs, will the LD just has to think of ONE, SEX!
) Sometimes people forget that they can get themselves in the mood that way, AND that they have done it before, just not in a consious way. The physical call of the jungle is just not that reliable for most people and it does fades with time and familiarity, but the other engine starter never fails if you do this exercise, just focus on what is sexy, nice , beautiful even , of that person and start thinking sexy thoughts and looking at those eyes paying attention like you haven't seen them everyday. All the things that attracted you in the beginning are still there, you just have to look , really pay attention again. It is just doing something that comes naturally and without thinking when all is new, now is something you do on purpose, same tool, just a much more in control driver : yourself. It works for me when the body is not in the mood to start with, but it jumps in the wagon soon after, that is also true desire.
than when our sex life is derailed.