Been quite a while since I posted, I’ve been kind of treading water, trying to keep from swallowing too much water during the storm.
I REALLY need some help from you guys (Corri, are you there?)
Every week we have been going to the therapist and we both think the doc is great (woman). We have civil, intelligent discussions and both express our feelings. Afterwards the wife and I usually go have dinner or a drink to keep talking.
By the middle of dinner the discussion gets to the point of asking each other if we’re wanting to split, either temporarily or permanently. These “split?” talks are increasing to 2-3 week, at different times. I’ve been so close to saying “yeah, I need to get some space” so many times but for some reason I just can’t say it. I’m terrified of splitting and dying to get the hell away, at the same time.
I don’t feel like she’s trying much to see my perspective and she feels the same about me. We’re at some F$%#)(*@ing stalemate.
These seem to be her demands (not in any particular order):
1. call her at least once a day to chat for a minimum of 15 minutes without being in a hurry to get back to work--I’m self employed
2. develop a strong interest in her interests and work( --I have a hard time even understanding what she does)
3. get in lengthy philosophical/political discussions with her as often as possible (preferably every day)
4. do more housework, cleaning, repairs
5.provide more financial stability for the household (I provide 3 times what she brings in and have supported her in every endeavor she has tried, even when I was extremely skeptical and had to physically and financially help out a lot with some of her ideas){she’s in grad school}
6. Adopt her beliefs and values (relating to politics, religion[in this case, lack thereof], don’t disagree with her as much on these things. This is the one that really gets me because she says she has studied more, lived more experiences (she’s younger than me????) and analyzes the world from a more enlightenend perspective.
7. Be less chauvanistic, see that men have dominated women and other disenfranchised groups and strive to fight this in others.
Everyone else I know (including women) tells me that I’m one of the nicest, most patient, kind-hearted people that they know. Even my wife agrees on this! But it's not enough for her. They have told me that these issues she has with me are not well-founded nor worthy of withholding intimacy from me. She is not even sure if she will ever have feelings for me, even if I comply with all of her wants.
What do y’all think?
I’M SO CONFUSED, IN TURMOIL. I feel guilty thinking ”what if she’s right? what if it is all my fault: that I haven’t given her what she needed?”; at the same time thinking that this is insane and that she has something strange going on inside and that I need to let go of the guilt trip and move on with my life.
We are on the edge of separation. I want to get away from this pain of adoring a woman that has no feelings of romance for me, much less any sexual impulse. I also don’t want to hurt her and our kid by making a big mistake, but we are both in such agony over this.
Hey AM, I've missed you. Thought maybe you'd finally convinced her that sex was the next best thing to sliced bread, but it sounds instead like your marriage is toast. Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.
Anyhoo, as I've said (and you've said) before, are we married to the same woman? Especially the adopting the same religious beliefs, being less chauvinistic (when our friends/colleagues say we're already more sensitive than we need to be). My wife could care less if I talk to her for 15 minutes a day, because I do that whenever I can, and usually enjoy it.
But what bugs me is the chauvinistic thing, and the religious/philosophy thing. First of all, I (and you, apparently), already are kind and sensitive. So I occasionally slip and raise my eyebrows at a Victoria's Secret commercial. It proves, not that I'm a chauvinist, but that I'm friggin' alive and male. What her insistence in this matter has gotten her is a husband who catches her every time she makes an antimale comment, turns it around and calls her a sexist. So she's kind of quieted down on that issue. If you need a few links to websites that talk about the disenfranchisement of the male, let me know.
About the religio/philosophy thing, what my wife has told me is that she really wants me to find a spiritual base. I'm Jewish, but I don't practice. I think she really wants me to be what she is, which is Buddhist. I could actually be both at the same time. There is nothing offensive about Buddhism, and it certainly has its attractions. I have attended some events at the Buddhist temple with her, and I think she really appreciates that. But I hear you when you complain about the fact that your W says she's more "enlightened" than you. My W has told me that. I'd like to hear Corri's view on it. Sometimes I want to say, "oh enlightened one, bite me!" But I don't.
Sorry to hear that you are talking about splitting. You obviously love her a lot, and let me tell you, breaking up a family is generally not worth it, unless there's abuse of some sort going on. I'm certainly not at that point in this marriage.
Oh my goodness, AM!! Hello, you lovely, dear man, I have missed you so much.
I am so sorry to hear that things are still frustrating for you. Let me ask -- when is the last time you ML to your wife?
Having asked that, I see some real positives in your dialogue with your wife. She is opening up to you and telling you her needs. Now the trick for you is to get out of 'defense mode' (I understand why you are feeling defensive, really), and start really listening to what she is saying to you.
It sounds to me like she wants to feel that you have an intellectual interest in her beyond just the bedroom. I know you have that interest, but SHE doesn't know it. It could be that your wife needs to be 'intellecutally aroused' before she feels physcially aroused. Things that jazz her are of an intellectual nature, and her seeing you 'excited' and I mean, truly passionately excited about the things that excite her is what I am hearing she wants from you.
So, okay, you understand the need for passionate response from a partner. You GET that. You need passion from her, she needs passion from you, just in different forms. The two of you are really saying the same thing, you're just getting to the same point by different routes.
Do you understand that when she says these things to you, the hopelessness you feel is the exact same feeling she experiences when you tell her you need physical passion and desire from her? It just seems like such an ungodly stretch, right?
I hear you when you say that you already do a, b, c, and d for her, and why isn't that enough? But she can as easily turn around and say the same things to you, and there you are at a stalemate.
The financial thing just blows my mind. Let's just drop that one off the list for now, shall we?
I understand how you are feeling down, but you need to look at this with fresh eyes. The two of you are talking!! You are hearing each other, even though you may not like what you are hearing. How to turn the impossible into an opportunity? You're self-employeed, you do this all the time. C'mon man, THINK. Some of the best sex I've ever, ever had with my hubby has come on the heels of a really deep conversation about something *I* cared about, that he seemed really into, and I felt so turned on I could barely contain myself. I WANTED to physcially connect with him afterwards. I felt so honored, so 'intellectually tuned-in' with him that I felt really emotionally close to him, and the physcial act of completing that feeling overcame every LD characteristic I have.
If you don't understand what she does, ASK her. If you don't get what she's just told you, tell her you don't get it and to put it into 'english' for you. Ask her where you can learn more about it. YES, it is WORK. TRY, damn it, TRY. You want her to try, yes? Pick one or two things on her list and throw yourself full-force into giving her a run for her money, because that is what you want her to do for you.
If it doesn't work, you are still at the same point, but buddy, you have a concrete LIST of exactly what she wants from you, and you may have fun once you get rolling, who knows? Jeese, I kinda sound like an HDer here, don't I....
It's just like Hairdog and his wife's Buddhist leanings. What that man does not realize yet is that studying Buddhism is the VERY ticket he needs to get through to his wife. Once he begins to study and understand the philosophy, his wife is TOAST. She will not have one excuse left in her book, not one, and still be able to claim she is a Buddhist. (Are you hearing me Hairpup?)
Tell your wife at your next dinner conversation that you hear her, you are going to start working on two or three things on her list immediately, but you aren't going to tell her which. In return, you would like to go home and ML to give you extra, added incentive. You PROMISE with your hand over your heart that YOU will follow through.
Thanks so much for your responses. I have our therapy session in a couple hours and your comments will be helpful.
ML? She begrudgingly “allowed” me to have sex once with her about 6 months ago, during one of the most beautiful vacations alone together, after days of great conversation and walks around one of the most gorgeous cities....To be honest, part of me doesn’t even want her to have sex with me unless she is all the way in (no pun intended, well, maybe sort of....)
I understand her need for good conversation, intellectual discussion, passionate talks about politics, etc.
I have a MAJOR NEED for passionate sex, romance, general flirting and intimacy.
I certainly enjoy good conversation, fun times, intellectual discussion, passionate talks about lots of things besides politics and philosophy (2 themes that depress the hell out of me and ones that what I do offer as comments get rejected by her as totally amateur unvalid thoughts)
The HUGE difference here is that she gets her needs met every single f-ing day with collegues and friends (she is very social and has a tight group) and partially with me (can’t y’all tell I’m not a complete neanderthal yet?). I totally encourage her to go out with her buddies anytime she wants.
My need can only be met by her (at least what is socially acceptable), yet she refuses, forcing me into her celibate nightmare. She won’t even help me out with a HJ. Does this seem bizarre to anyone else?
As far as asking for a “bone” as incentive, forget it. I am definitely forbidden from requesting sex, looking at her when she’s naked, or even looking at her with “those eyes” until some unknown possibly non-existent date in the future.
Another interesting side note is that she has admitted to having had serious reservations just before we got married and has never really been attracted to my looks--I’m not her “type” (hey! I’m not a bad looking guy. Some women have told me that I am VERY physically attractive)
She just seems very immature, selfish and imbalanced. It just feels so wrong to become someone else just to follow her ever-changing personality. Why can’t she love me for the kind man that I am?
I am going to get everyone mad at me for this piece of advice, so take it accordingly.
You need to stop feeding the animals immediately. Backoff, and 180 on your desperation for her.
I know it is hard, but you have to shut off the 'needy vector' for a while. Evidently, she is convinced that your relationship is so one-sided, toward you, and that she is already doing you a favor by noticing you. You have likely helped her believe it.
Quit making her comfortable. Quit being Johnny-on-the-spot.
It is perfectly NORMAL to want to see your wife naked. It is perfectly human and it is OK. She obviously has a problem, either in her belief structure or because of some past issue. Regardless, it is her problem.
It is your problem as well, but because it is her problem.
If she needs to put down your looks and her level of attraction to you, and obviously on a continuing basis, then it sounds like she may be dealing with some serious security issues. If that is not the case, then why are you tagging along for the abuse?
There has been a good bit of discussion about respect here lately. Do a search and read those posts. From what you have written, your relationship is in dire need of some heartfelt respect.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
After reading your return post, I have to say I agree with NOPkins. I didn't mean to imply that you were without intellectual 'suaveness,' or that you hadn't tried those things already; I was just saying that this could be what is going on inside your wife, and you could choose to rise to the occassion. Or not.
I'd be really interested in hearing what the shrink says about your wife's NEEDS list, balanced against your needs and where she suggests the two of them converge. I cannot imagine any shrink thinking that going 6 months without ML is a good thing.
Thanks Nop, you are right, I think. I do need to stop needing and wanting her. The only way I can understand how to do this is to not be around her or pretend (God, this is going to kill me!) that she’s not a goddess.
Yesterday’s session got pretty tense a couple times but it felt good because I got some stuff off my chest and my wife revealed a couple of nuggets of info about her that could have helped me a decade ago.
What it has boiled down to is that I need to pay more attention to her world and develop a genuine interest and become a better conversationalist. I don’t know yet what I can expect in return but I’ve decided that unless she is able to develop a sincere and heartfelt desire, interest in me as a man, as a sexual being and respond with reasonably consistent amorous encounters, I will be done living in pain with her.
Her story is now that, actually, she really does want sex and romance, just not with me, or at least, I haven’t been enough of the type of person that she is attracted to.
Wish she would have just been honest with me years ago, instead of pretending that she was just not interested in sex period. I’m still not convinced that this is entirely true. It still seems like she also just plain has a low libido.
She still refuses to go to the doctor to have some tests, swearing that the problem has come from my lack of input and care. She still is in denial about the effects that her rocky childhood likely had on her perspective of sex and me. I’m hoping the therapist will pick up the ball for me here. The doc has been great as a mediator and she definitely believes it is insane not to be having intimate connection on a regular basis.
Another little side story is that she admits to having an emotional affair with a guy several years ago. Lovely. I didn’t make a big deal about it but it makes you stop and think.
The reality is that I don’t think she is capable of feeling much for me even if I put a ton of effort into getting interested in her world. Just the same, I will do it, if nothing else to become better friends with her and to learn how to be more sensitive for future relationships.
I must admit that I have an inner conviction that in some way it is kind of morally wrong that I should have to go to even more lengths to entice her into loving me. Somehow it just seems backwards, but it she will not budge until I accommodate her needs even more. If I get stubborn and tell her that she needs to be sexual with me before I change it absolutely will not happen. I’m not sure if I want to be with someone that is that selfish.
We haven’t even really started discussing my needs or pain yet. The therapist says we are just focussing on the “relationship stuff” right now, supposedly we’ll get to my interests later; just not sure that I have the stamina to last that long without the “encouragement” that I need. It’s getting to the point where I’m even losing some of my interest in her as a lover. Nopkins can probably understand me in this respect.
We’re living week to week now. Both of us know that it might not work but we’re trying.
