Will a glimmer of hope be a start?

[PamCakes]

Ok- I think my thread has become somewhat of a daily journal of our interactions( or lack thereof).

I did text him to let him know :
1) I simply can't afford to keep his car on my insurance and gave him the choice to either get his own policy- or pay me the difference. He chose to have me drop him and pay for his own policy . Yay
2) I spoke to a financial planner about getting finances back on track and... Maybe this is a NO-NO ... Advised She can mediate a divorce settlement and tie up loose ends, and advised him to think about it, let me know. He didn't reply.


He came home from work, went straight to the man cave, only saying"hi" to the 6 year old without breaking stride.
I went into an hour-long conference call which I locked my bedroom door typically and have a note that says " in session".

Not even 10 minutes into the session. I get a text- that he needs to get in and get clean clothes because he's been sitting in "wet underwear all day". I pause the session, open the door, he gets his clothes.

An hour later text from him

H- the cat pissed on my clean clothes
P- sorry to hear about that

2 hrs later

H- Have A (daughter) boyfriend move his truck.
I didn't ask why and summon the kid to move his truck.

He got in his work van about 10:00 pm and leaves, carrying the sack of cat pee clothes. OW lives 25 miles away, and because he took his work van he'll leave from her house in the morning to go to work.

He interacted with our little girl 15 mins today. No goodbye, goodnight, nothing. She's so sweet, and is very anxious already about "Daddy moving away". Luckily, She didn't see him leave so it's probably for the best.

[MrP]

Hey Pam. It sounds like a very understandable tough situation. If you haven't found them yet in your reading, I'd recommend reviewing Sandi's Rules. Sandi is, to me at least, a legendary poster in this forum. She's not been active for some time and, hopefully, just stepped away from the board. However, her list of rules was a lifesaver when I was at the point that you seem to be at. I made myself memorize those rules like I was in elementary school and practiced them daily. With an MLCer, it can take a long time and much patience but if there is a chance they'll turn around, Sandi's rules can be a very helpful complement to MWDs DBing. And, you will backslide here and there or make errors. Focus on you for now using (as DNJ said) the gift of time you have. Your self-care and well-being are of most importance with your kids following very closely. Tough to be fully there for them when you're not at your best.

Talking with a lawyer is just that: talking. Don't share with H. I spoke with 4-5 and got better at asking 3, 4, and 5 more sophisticated questions after I'd gotten my typically one hour free consultation with each attorney. Hit your local library to review a copy of Divorce in (INSERT YOUR STATE NAME) with Children. It gave me a great sense of what I'd face if that route became a reality I had to face or choose.

Boundaries are only as good as your enforcement of them. H may not like them, but you likely put them together for good reasons and your best interest.

Also, I'd not share all those feelings with H. Get an IC if possible. Air those feelings out in this forum for us instead, at least for now. Unfortunately, sharing with H right now can have unpredictable results. He may feel worse for hearing how you feel. He may take odd pleasure in it. Who knows! Do more of what is working for YOU and less of what is not. Read through others' situations out here to see what takeaways you may be able to apply to your situation. In my experience, you have to pick 2-3 things to really try from MWDs recommendations and then evaluate if they're having a positive impact for YOU. What 2-3 things have may you already have tried?

[PamCakes]

Mr P:

Why is it recommended to refrain from explaining the reality of lawyers/ divorce mediators?
My H biggest complaint is financial motivation" what so I gotta buy you a house"- meaning where I live is a 50/50 split on marital property and funds. We own a home outright.

My theory was if he begins to see the financial impact, could a reverse course happen, or realign his expectations to wait. Time is a gift? Right? I realized I referred to it as "tying up loose ends".

I've been married to him for 13 years - when his mind is made up, it's made up. And his mind is MADE UP. I suspect it'll be soon, that he takes some action towards decoupling from a legal standpoint.


Also- I've tried:

1)Backing the heck off. Don't talk to him. Don't react to his behaviors of- not coming home as honored to care for his child, abruptly leaving to go to OW house. Usually I would make sarcastic comments, huff and puff

2)GAL- pouring into puzzles, kids, being upbeat, purposeful


Where things have stalled: communication - he's stone walled me. He pays me no mind, no words. No texts. Monday he was at least acknowledged me with a "hi". He looks so angry. I wish I knew what was going on in his brain?

Last night he slept on the couch. I feel bad putting him out of the bed- and wondering if that is backfiring?
My love language is physical touch, closeness. Him being in there means I can't let go. Thoughts??

[DnJ]

Good Morning Pam

Also, I'd not share all those feelings with H.

MrP is spot on here.

Someone in emotional turmoil, and especially an MLCer, has their own emotions cranked to eleven. They absolutely cannot handle anyone else’s feelings; they literally do not have the bandwidth.

This is how a crisis is so very consuming. The MLCer is so deep in depression everything else, everyone else, appears to not matter. The truth is they are consumed inside their own torment and just cannot feel for others. For a long while, H’s empathy chip is going to be broken. It’s how he can ignore you or simply walk by his six year old child with only a quick “hi”.

A crisis drags the person back to their trauma. Back to that time. To how they felt. To who they were. And they need to grow up from there/then. It is quite akin to time travel.

So, H is internally thrashing about, reliving his past pains. Back in a time when he was not married, back in a time when he did not have children. Didn’t have a job, was young, no responsibilities, and so on. That’s where/when his emotions are swirling around. However, sometimes he does realize when he is; but more times he is consumed and living/reliving his past.

I know, wild. Bizarre. I saw it with my own XW. Most times she is a brash 18 year old. With pressure she devolves to a young girl of 13. With more pressure she becomes a child of around 7. Mentally. Emotionally. Wildest thing I’ve ever seen. She spoke like a seven year old. Performed math like a seven year old.

In my case, I’ve uncovered/learnt of three times of severe traumatic events in my XW’s life. Ages 7, 13, and 18. Like I said, she lives like her 18 year old self. Only a few times has she reverted back to her 50 year old self. And that lasted only around 30 seconds. She literally looked different, spoke different, was for a brief moment the loving gal I knew. Then something dark and deep rose up and dragged her back down. This was witnessed by my son and best friend. Creepy, scary, incredible, wild. It’s near indescribable.

I am amazed and humbled by the strength and fragility of the human mind.

Anyhow, I learned rather quickly to be pressure-free. Pressure just pushes them out the door faster. And in my XW’s case, twisted her up. No point adding to her torment.

MLC is often described as they become an alien, or pod person. It’s them dragged back to their youth. Imagine a hurt, lashing out teenager, with all the privileges and bank account of their older self.

Why is it recommended to refrain from explaining the reality of lawyers/ divorce mediators?
My H biggest complaint is financial motivation" what so I gotta buy you a house"- meaning where I live is a 50/50 split on marital property and funds. We own a home outright.

My theory was if he begins to see the financial impact, could a reverse course happen, or realign his expectations to wait. Time is a gift? Right? I realized I referred to it as "tying up loose ends".

I've been married to him for 13 years - when his mind is made up, it's made up. And his mind is MADE UP. I suspect it'll be soon, that he takes some action towards decoupling from a legal standpoint.

Lots of reasons. Here’s a few:

Pressure. It will backfire. A MLCer will push back against you. Doesn’t matter if you are right or wrong. They will call the sky red and no amount of talking, yelling, explaining will change their perception.

To an MLCer their spouse is enemy number one. They will balk at anything you say. They will barely follow through with what they say or agree to. The recent not watching kids and just leaving without a word for example. By the way, MLCers usually become terrible parents. Make plans and arrangements for your kids that do not rely on H.

MLCers have the memory and attention span of a gnat. Explaining the reality of divorce goes in one ear and out the other. They will not absorb it.

They are running from reality. H is living/looking to his imaged fantasy life. Unicorns and fairies. With one so enthralled reality is easily ignored.

H has made up his mind to leave. H needs to change his mind. Himself. For his reasons.

What do want? Do you really want an H to only stick around because it saves him money? You are worth better than that.

H is in crisis. And once a crisis has started it will continue until it’s over. If one actually manages to interrupt a crisis, the MLCer at some point will restart it. And the second time around it’s much worse.

Speaking about D to H reenforces, renews, his feelings and ideas towards that. If D is not your goal, don’t remind him.



Pam, the short of it is this: If you need financial protection or security then get it! Otherwise leave the heavy lifting to H.

Getting financial security and protection doesn’t necessarily mean divorce. Separate accounts, credit cards, loans, debts, investments, etc. Of course, it depends on upon your locale and how much you can actually do. Often martial assets and debts are mingled regardless if both names are actually on the paperwork. Speaking to a L will sort out your rights, responsibilities, and options.

Also- I've tried:

1)Backing the heck off. Don't talk to him. Don't react to his behaviors of- not coming home as honored to care for his child, abruptly leaving to go to OW house. Usually I would make sarcastic comments, huff and puff

2)GAL- pouring into puzzles, kids, being upbeat, purposeful

Good! Keep it up.

Focus on you and the kids. Live your life.

I really hate the strong feelings I'm having- the mood swings, vacillating between future focused and reduced to tears.

(((Hugs)))

I understand. Been there.

You will get through it. Continue to move forward. Feel those feelings. Let them wash over you.

I don't know if I want to save this marriage. It's so much work and I'm exhausted to the core.

Let the future unfurl itself on its time. You don’t need to decide right now.

Today, stand. Figure tomorrow out tomorrow.

How do I handle this? I was going to neatly fold up the blankets and put them on the kitchen table before I lock the bedroom door and go to bed.

That would get the message across.

Last night he slept on the couch. I feel bad putting him out of the bed- and wondering if that is backfiring?

My love language is physical touch, closeness. Him being in there means I can't let go. Thoughts??

H needs to feel the loss. Not in a mean vindictive way, just consequences of his choices. Laying in the bed he made.

I know you feel bad. Realize feeling are fleeting. Let them flit.

Most feelings are born in moments and will extinguish within minutes, unless they are reinforced.

DBing is quite counterintuitive at first. It will feel wrong. It will run counter to how you feel you should handle things. Look to logic and reason for decisions and course.

You are correct, having H laying in your bed will hamper detachment and letting go. No cake eating. Stay the course.

I wish I knew what was going on in his brain?

It’s a bag of crazed cats.

I get it, everyone requires a certain level of rationalizing before they can/will let go. Be careful, you don’t want to dig too deep into H’s mind, you’ll go bonkers.

Hope you have a wonderful weekend.

D

[PamCakes]

Therapy today: it was a sh*tshow and so was I. It's the rejection, guys. I've been rejected before. This hurts. I feel so dejected . He came home at 12:06p and left at 2:06p. I admit i lost my composure- he was to go to my little ones Beach party with us, but I drove to get her from the sitter without him.


He said yes, I love someone else. Not you. Acknowledged he wasn't there for me when my dad was ill and chose to respond to her doing stepfather instead. Said he didn't care. So cruel. He was so calm. No reactions at all. Just matter of fact. I want to let go. It's so hard.


He acknowledged to respect my boundaries of staying out of the bed at night, and said " I don't know why, it's a bed. It's a tool to sleep in". It's just a tool to him.
But in the past, the bed was our safe space. Our space to congregate and communicate. Just last month he said" we didn't talk anymore, you know I need communication".

Here's the kicker: the therapist said what he's doing is a result of never being allowed to say no. Therapist says he's decided to prioritize his independence over family and being emotionally supportive in the marriage. H says I can def see him all week, but the weekends are for him/OM and he wants to come and go as he pleases. He sees her more and more, and as they strengthen, I feel all hope is shattered.

Therapist said this is not a MLC, but selfish phase. It may last the rest of his life. He feels this is common in polyamory, Some partners just choose to invest in other relationships. So I said, because He's never practiced boundaries before. The only antidote is for him destroy all boundaries we had as a couple. Am I barking up the wrong tree with this DBing???????

I let him slip away, I took so much for granted

[DnJ]

Good Morning Pam

The recent therapy sounds like it was MC rather than an IC session. I recommend pausing/stopping MC.

For MC to be effective both parties need to be willing and invested into the partnership. H is not. He is using MC to justify his choices and decisions. Furthering his narrative. Talking himself into his perceived reality. And you are forced to listen.

You should/could continue your IC, if you find it helpful. And it’s likely a good thing H is in IC.

He [therapist] feels this is common in polyamory, Some partners just choose to invest in other relationships.

Therapist is reinforcing H’s choice.

Pam, ask yourself the hard question. What do you want in a relationship? Polyamory? Monogamy? Husband and Wife?

H says I can def see him all week, but the weekends are for him/OM and he wants to come and go as he pleases.

I am going to guess you are not in for that. You want a relationship in which you are both fully invested.

So, boundaries. Rock solid boundaries.

Realize boundaries are not a tool for behaviour modification of H. Boundaries are for you. To protect your mental and emotional health. They are a predetermined predefined rational action you will take when H is disrespectful. A simple example: “H, I am willing to converse with. However, yelling at me is disrespectful. When you yell at me I am going to hang up the phone.” And you do it! Right then and there. Rock solid. Each and every time. Letting the chip fall where they will.

And LRT. Last resort technique. MWD speaks about this in DR. Granted the criteria for when to apply this technique is based upon a traditional marriage. Polyamory muddies the water for sure. However, cheating is cheating.

Basically, H is serious about divorce. Let him feel the weight, the reality of that choice. He needs to feel the loss before he might change course. Go really dim. Only communicate about kids. No laundry. No cooking. No sleeping in the same bed. No MC.

Do be kind and cordial, like you would a cashier at the grocery store. Treat him as a roommate. Focus on you and the kids! GAL! Live like he is leaving/gone. Be the best version of yourself. A woman only a fool would leave.

Let go and place the ball in his court.

Maybe he notices what he is losing. Maybe he decides to change his direction. To invest.

Am I barking up the wrong tree with this DBing???????

Much like boundaries, DB is a rational thought out logical response to a gut wrenching situation. When followed, it limits emotional reactionary outbursts which are usually not helpful to one’s end goal; and efforts more purposeful actions and strategies towards one’s defined goal.

Will it save your marriage? There is no guarantee, DB is not a magic bullet. However, DB will save you, and gives you the best chance at saving your marriage.

Hope you have a wonderful Sunday.

D

[PamCakes]

It's been a wild weekend here. He must be furious about being kicked out of the bedroom. He makes comments like

"well, guess I'll sleep in my van,"

My response -" well, you could do that"

I said- we can move your dresser in the hallway nook, but not today (maybe unhelpful)

He'll never beg or plead. Always passive aggressive.

I need to manage my responses. It's so hard. I loudly proclaimed to my oldest daughter( from a previous)-geez, I didn't think I could go lower from your father.. But at least your dad fought for his family. Ouch.





Then, every night about 10 pm he leaves in a huff, after the kiddo is tucked in. Nary a word.

Also, it's amazing, when home sitting watching TV he just stares blankly ahead at the wall- like a dissociation of some sort . For hours.


I shouldn't care about OW, but man, getting that nightly call he's on his way over, two hours after he left,I can imagine would become quite redundant for me- probably not for her. That infatuation stage.

He looks as if he's in sheer panic mode. A shell of a man, a fart in the wind.
I wonder if that dissipates when he gets to OW home. I imagine it does . He probably feels relief. Maybe a Pavlovian response

Part of me feels. . Just go on and leave us. Separate already. Maybe it's coming??
He has to decide what he wants to do. He can make the choice.

Today's act of self care: I have an inset shelf above my bed- I moved all my prestigious work awards on it, family photos of the kids, and I have to say I feel pretty damn good about seeing that.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Pam

Today's act of self care: I have an inset shelf above my bed- I moved all my prestigious work awards on it, family photos of the kids, and I have to say I feel pretty damn good about seeing that.

Nice!

And thanks for letting me know about the spammer.

D

[PamCakes]

Thanks.
You know, I left to take care of an ill father. So he stayed the night and I wonder what the room will look like, and if he moved the awards. I shall soon find out.

[PamCakes]

My newest fear: Being that OW has a large chunk of $$ from her deceased husband (tragically: suicide) and a botched boob job lawsuit. Broken seeks broken ? We're talking Hundreds of thousands guys. He always bragged " she pays for everything"...

I'm fearful my H may quit his job and live off her funds . She's 10 years younger, has her own severe trauma from seeing him deceased...
Right now H is acquiescing to give our kid anything and everything financially, so I keep getting anxiety... That flow may stop..Trying not to fortune tell... But I have heard of capable MLC surgeons quit their job and become macrame artists ...haha ...all jokes aside...we never know one day to the next what whim he or she will flit to


I was going to suggest a reasonable number and see if he can agree on a contract...not sure he'd oblige
This is only week 1 since he left...tread lightly? Be stern?

Thoughts to reinforce the need to keep providing??


Also....so much to navigate and communicate with him - lawn care, driveway issues, snow plow contract...
How do I get this sorted out and not overwhelm him..