Grief and Gratitude, Grok

[grok]

Well Mach 1,

I did make it through TSquared2's story a few weeks back. So many resonances... so much I don't have time to write.

I have read that people "re-create" the marital environment they grew up in,

Her mom strayed, briefly early on, and apparently her dad never let her forget it when upset. I didn't know this until this last year. I've wondered if she saw me in the role of her dad. I've wondered if she thought her mom missed out on the opportunity for a better man/life.


It's been a few days since posting on my thread. Daily life eating up all the time... emotional swings more muted these days. I don't much ponder what W is doing or why.

I haven't seen W much. She still stops by just before bed time most nights and the kids go out to her car for 5 or 10 minutes. I find it fascinating that when they know she is there, they will finish up their current activities and go out when they feel like it. While she waits. They appear in control.

W does come by for an hour or two most work days to do a little schoolwork with S12 while I am out. This is reminding me of grandparents who stop by for a little while to get their kid fix...then leave again.
W many months back,
"I feel so relieved at my RV, I don't have everyone wanting something from me all the time." Everyone could only mean our children.
"They need a Dad more now anyway."
"I'm so much more than a stay at home mom/housewife and homeschooler, not that there is anything wrong with that. I'll be the mom that comes home late with pizza now." This is opposite of what SHE CHOSE for all our time together. Two years ago she would have been upset with a woman who said, "not that there is anything wrong with that." Those roles can be hard work!

It feels like,

My wife acknowledged at one point that part of her interest in a D was to enable her to essentially only be an active parent 50% of the time.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2950022#Post2950022

W was leaving as I came home from work the other day and she asked me I I had gotten my financial affidavit notarized yet, the last piece of paperwork she needs to go file the mediated uncontested divorce. The notary had been out sick though. Then she was sure to let me know,
"G, I have a job working housekeeping at the RV park now. The best thing is it comes with a large shed to keep my stuff in. I've been taking a load of my books out each day."
You see we have both been avid readers and have kept less than one tenth of what we have read in ... I think 15 full size book cases!

So...excited for a housekeeping job after all her grand plans of cool "gig work" last year... and reasons for D that now is the time to REALLY LIVE LIFE as OM flies an airplane and goes deep sea fishing. You know, I have a non-current private pilots license. Been good at water ski, snow ski, rock climb, motorcycle on and off road, remote backpacking, climbed a glacier, etc... And other things. I stopped doing many of them to pay and have time for CHILDREN and a HOME that we had AGREED on.

GAL continues with Tuesdays at the brewery trivia night. I'm slowly expanding the people I know there. I rode my bike for the monthly Critical Mass group ride through the city at night. I know 4 or 5 regulars by name now. I'm finally getting over soreness from the Spartan Obstacle Course Race I did with work mates. Good thing tickets were free through my work!

Patient by Apollo TD

So this is broken I guess
And if I'm being honest I'm over my head
The hurt rages inside wave after wave like the ocean tide
I’ve done all I can
It’s out of my hands

It’s easy to forget
It’s part of Your plan, there’s a light up ahead
But right now I’m restless, I need You because I’m anxious
I’ve done all I can
It’s all in Your hands

When my world keeps on shaking, and I'm breaking
When the skies won't stop raining, and I'm fading
Help me to be okay with what I can't change
And remind me there's meaning in the waiting
Help me to be patient

Don’t know how long I can last
I need some reassurance that this too shall pass
I throw my hands up in the air, don’t wanna be a slave to fear
I know I gotta let it go

g

[Mach1]

Well Mach 1,

I did make it through TSquared2's story a few weeks back. So many resonances... so much I don't have time to write.

I have read that people "re-create" the marital environment they grew up in,

Her mom strayed, briefly early on, and apparently her dad never let her forget it when upset. I didn't know this until this last year. I've wondered if she saw me in the role of her dad. I've wondered if she thought her mom missed out on the opportunity for a better man/life.

I saw a similarity in the way that you think. I thought perhaps that T2 would resonate with you when you go inside of yourself.

There were some really good things about forgiveness in around thread 15 and 16....

Let me know if you want to dive into another poster's threads.


I have a couple that might resonate with you.

It's been a few days since posting on my thread. Daily life eating up all the time... emotional swings more muted these days. I don't much ponder what W is doing or why.

I haven't seen W much. She still stops by just before bed time most nights and the kids go out to her car for 5 or 10 minutes. I find it fascinating that when they know she is there, they will finish up their current activities and go out when they feel like it. While she waits. They appear in control.

W does come by for an hour or two most work days to do a little schoolwork with S12 while I am out. This is reminding me of grandparents who stop by for a little while to get their kid fix...then leave again.
W many months back,
"I feel so relieved at my RV, I don't have everyone wanting something from me all the time." Everyone could only mean our children.
"They need a Dad more now anyway."
"I'm so much more than a stay at home mom/housewife and homeschooler, not that there is anything wrong with that. I'll be the mom that comes home late with pizza now." This is opposite of what SHE CHOSE for all our time together. Two years ago she would have been upset with a woman who said, "not that there is anything wrong with that." Those roles can be hard work!

It feels like,

My wife acknowledged at one point that part of her interest in a D was to enable her to essentially only be an active parent 50% of the time.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2950022#Post2950022

W was leaving as I came home from work the other day and she asked me I I had gotten my financial affidavit notarized yet, the last piece of paperwork she needs to go file the mediated uncontested divorce. The notary had been out sick though. Then she was sure to let me know,
"G, I have a job working housekeeping at the RV park now. The best thing is it comes with a large shed to keep my stuff in. I've been taking a load of my books out each day."
You see we have both been avid readers and have kept less than one tenth of what we have read in ... I think 15 full size book cases!

So...excited for a housekeeping job after all her grand plans of cool "gig work" last year... and reasons for D that now is the time to REALLY LIVE LIFE as OM flies an airplane and goes deep sea fishing. You know, I have a non-current private pilots license. Been good at water ski, snow ski, rock climb, motorcycle on and off road, remote backpacking, climbed a glacier, etc... And other things. I stopped doing many of them to pay and have time for CHILDREN and a HOME that we had AGREED on.

Where are you at with all of that ^^^ ???

I'm sensing some anger in you, and maybe a bit of resentment toward her.

And that's not always a bad thing.

Like most emotions, anger is a tool for you so that you can propel yourself forward from it.

As long as it's your fuel.

I've seen so many Women in the past that have defined themselves through their "roles" in life.

A Daughter, Sister, Wife, Mother, Friend...

And through those roles, they seem to get lost, and forget how to be something for themselves.

I think that us guys have it a little different. And I would say that it comes through our natural roles in life. Men are naturally ingrained to be providers, and that role allows us to remove the overly emotional aspect of living in most cases. If something is wrong, or broken, we fix it.

Yet with Women being more naturally predisposed as nurturers, those roles weigh heavily on them. If we fail, it is more out in the open...

If Women fail, I think that it would be more of a hidden guilt for them. When things break or go wrong, we Men , as fixers, jump in and adjust the situation to work out.

We've "fixed" the problem (the ends justify the means, right? ) regardless the storm that was created in doing so.


Things that may not surface for years. However, 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 will still get to a million eventually...little things add up over time....

And I cannot imagine how that feels to a Woman that defines herself by her "roles" ..

To have someone else come in behind me and demoralize my abilities within my role...

I would assume that it comes across to them as a Fatherly thing, and truthfully, I have been guilty of stepping in during moments like this.

I'm also sure that most Women trying to find out who they are without the roles do not want a Fatherly figure leading them.

They want, need , and crave to figure things out for themselves. And while it may not be true, what's true to them is that it is "for the first time in my life".....(interject whatever is happening at the moment)


Just something to think about for you...

Maybe take a peek to see if it is anger, and make sure that it doesn't manifest into judgement...

If it is anger, make sure that you use it as a shield instead of a sword....

Something that I haven't seen around here in a long time is to applaud the 2% that is going right...

Applaud the 2% of the movement that they are making toward their own healing, and the steps along the way....

Mostly though...

Don't forget to "just be" , and trust the process and your faith along the way.


Hope your weekend goes well G....

[grok]

Just writing what has been intermittently on my mind for a couple weeks. It feels like a puzzle piece that fits a pattern. I'm pretty careful about what I ask the children about W, i.e. almost nothing.

I did ask D19 on one of our recent outings, "Why don't you and your siblings go over to your mom's RV? You drive and she can take them anytime."

D19, "Well, ... She has it set up as only HER space and we are bored. There is nothing there for US and it is not home."

g

(Short Post!)

[grok]

Forgot to add the latest in song rotation to the short post. So much to identify with...

Lyfe by Ryan Ellis

[intro]
What is life?

[Verse 1]
So many questions, so many why's
Feels like we’ve been here so many times
Learning to trust You
You know that I'm tryin'
So many tests and so many trials
Step at a time is always Your style
Learning to trust You
You know that I’m tryin'

[Pre-Chorus]
'Cause I'm not perfect
But the righteous live by faith
And I can't see a thing

[Chorus]
What is life
Without love, without pain?
You hold it all in Your hands
What's life
Without sun, without rain?
You hold it all in Your hands

g

[grok]

Occasional evenings in the life...

Dog walking and children's state of mind

D19's turn to walk the dogs with me before bedtime last night. She's kind of weepy-tired-emotional and speaking in absolutes. I'm much better now at understanding what this means in the language of Venus. I'm not fixing but understanding she is just expressing how it feels. I accept, empathize, and let it pass through me. Normal for her when working 10-hour days. It IS hard growing into adult responsibilities. She has been noticing the phases D17 is going through as just how she felt two years ago. She has had kindness and empathy for D17's struggles now.

We stop by the front door to get dog poop bags...there is the supply of plastic bags from the grocery store I sometimes use...but where is the box of doggie poop bags? -searching but nowhere to be found- I express my irritation to D19 and she rolls her eyes both in sympathy and at me.

D19, "Maybe Mama took them."
G, "What? Why would she take them. She doesn't have the dogs."
D19 exasperated, "I don't know Dad. Let's go...I'm tired. I can't make it. I'm gonna die."

Out the door we go, telling S12 to finish up, it is time for bed when we get back. We see W sitting in her vehicle out front ...

D19, "Here Dad, hold all three crazy dogs while I go say goodnight."

Leashes are tangling all over as the dogs recognize who is there. I spin in leash circles as I watch D19 and W open and close various doors...then W takes something to the house and S12 comes out.

D19, "Dad, she put the dog poop bags back. She thought no one was using them."
I stick to "OK. Let's go walk and you can tell me about your day."
D19, "D17 better not take too long saying goodnight to mom tonight. S12 either."
G, "Well D19, your sister and brother are in a different place, heart and mind, than you are. Their needs are different than yours."
D19, "Not as much as you might think Dad. She just doesn't want to offend."

O ... I wasn't fishing for information. I was trying to say give grace as we all deal with this. Maybe this ties to another statement by D19 a week ago. "Dad, D17 just needs her licence and her own car."

Upset part ?

I still don't get W's logic in taking the dog poop bags, but I am learning to drop it and live with the uncertainty. We walk and come back to an empty car...W must be inside. D19 goes inside while I go to deposit the doggie deposits. Upon entering I see D19 standing by the kitchen with an unhappy and OMG/WTF expression. I hear W's raised unhappy/angry lecture voice.

I take a breath and think "calm, solid, and nothing will perturb my centered-ness." To myself I paraphrase the saying from Dune, "I will face it. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. When this has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

W is lecturing D17 about some interaction with S12. Lots of "you HAVE to" and "you MUST do" and "you CANNOT"... Something about going too far physically. D17 is standing stock still, silent, with her complete poker face on. Face a little pale. I'm NOT getting between them or interacting with them but staying in unperturbed observer mode. S12 and D17 do have a physical/buddy relationship going so ... not unusual for one or the other to take it too far at times. Kids. I keep a lid on it when necessary.

I also noticed S12 has a new bowl of ramen noodles. I remember telling him it was time for bed when we got back... He waited for mom to ask her to make them AFTER bedtime. W also knows it is bedtime. I internally call a foul. W doesn't seem to be able to tell him NO.

W shortly decides not to continue this with D17 as all 5 of us are in the kitchen and D17 is unreactive. W just walks out the front door. I offer D17 a hug and gently suggest she go brush her teeth to be alone for a bit while I complete other end of day tasks for her.

D17, "NO, Dad. Just leave me alone. Let me be!"

Scared of single parenting

G, "OK D17, you let me know what you need. S12, you have 10 minutes for your ramen. You know you were already supposed to be getting ready for bed. I told you this before we left."
D19 decides to jump in...her day job with youngsters has left her with a skill and the itch to correct things. "Dad, that is just what I was going to say. S12, listen to me for a minute. You know Dad is here, I'm here, and D17 is here to help you get food before bedtime. It's not OK to ask her to make you food now late at night. She is here just to give you love and goodnight. Don't do that again."

I motion for her to leave it at that. She has considerable authority with him, but I have to be the root. D17 thinks to herself for a few minutes, then heads out the door to talk to W on her own terms.

D17 comes back in after about five minutes. W pops back in shortly, "S12, please come outside to talk to me for a few minutes."
S12, "No ... I have to finish my ramen first."
G, "Go to your mom first S12, you may have extra time afterwards to finish your ramen."
S12 goes out the door, comes back in after 15 minutes, and goes to brush his teeth. I don't know what they talked about, and I didn't ask. I just ask if he's doing OK and what happened to the ramen.
S12, "I don't know Dad. I don't know. I threw out the rest of the ramen. I didn't want anymore."

I make sure the chicken, rabbit, and three dogs are all taken care of for the night then head upstairs. D19 and D17 are behind closed doors talking animatedly. I'll end up with just six hours sleep again, but I'll let all three children move themselves to bed at their own speed after this episode. A decompression window I think.

I've been scared of single parenting. I worry about all the things that were once divided tasks between H and W. From the beginning of this breakage, what comes next when I zero'd expectations of/from W?

The allusions are Biblical, but the plain meaning applies also.
...reflects a personal journey
...the theme of relying on faith and divine guidance.

God and Me by Jet Trouble

I've gone through quite the ride
And I'm scared of what comes next
I've been up to the mountaintop
I've been lost in the valley's depths
With the almighty rushing wind
That no one stand a chance against
...
God and me when I lost my fight
It was only God and me when He brought me back
God and me as I stood my ground
God and me as the walls came down

g

[DnJ]

Good Morning g

I offer D17 a hug and gently suggest she go brush her teeth to be alone for a bit while I complete other end of day tasks for her.

D17, "NO, Dad. Just leave me alone. Let me be!"

G, "Well D19, your sister and brother are in a different place, heart and mind, than you are. Their needs are different than yours."
D19, "Not as much as you might think Dad. She just doesn't want to offend."

Kids will lash out at you more than you deserve. It’s perfectly normal, for they cannot yet risk losing their Mom and will therefore express themselves at/to you. Their journey through their loss and grief is difficult. Continue to be their rock, gently steer them, and be that living example / role model.

I've been scared of single parenting. I worry about all the things that were once divided tasks between H and W. From the beginning of this breakage, what comes next when I zero'd expectations of/from W?

Yes, single parenting starts off scary. So many once shared/joint tasks and responsibilities get laid upon your shoulders. In time, one finds their footing. We do find our way.

Stay strong Dad. You are doing great!

D

[grok]

Finding my way
hat tip to DnJ

Don't forget to "just be" , and trust the process and your faith along the way.

Hope your weekend goes well G....

Thanks Mach1. That weekend did go well. and the following. Just being in the moment...

Friday evening I took D19 and S12 out for mountain biking trails. On the advice of some others present, I picked a trail that turned out to be a little too advanced. We had fun adventures anyway and worked through some dealing with discomfort/attitudes. It was VERY hot out.

Saturday morning all four of us went to the beach. Before the hot part of the day. Summer heat has warmed up the ocean waters to barely cooling you off when you jump in. We floated around for about an hour in the water before messing around in the sand and surf for a while.

On the way home we stopped for fresh fruits / veggies at a store recommend by co-workers. It is about a 30 minute drive from our house. Much fresher and 50%+ cheaper than close stores. Kind of a cross between a farmer's market and a normal grocery. We stocked up with fresh things for the week ... And each of us got a scoop of their home made ice cream on the way out. On to home then to rinse out the sand from EVERYTHING!

This past weekend was just rest, cleanup, and some games/play at home. I seem to be alternating activity weekends with peace/recovery weekends. An oddity with W thought. She asked if she could take the kids out Friday afternoon/evening and if Saturday was booked. I let her know nothing was planned so she is free to do whatever with the kids. I believe she took S12 and D17 to a movie Friday afternoon and heard only silence on Saturday. D17 complained W didn't take her work schedule into account so refused to do more on Friday.

The business side

Ha! Lawyers make money feelers are out there and automated ... Before any information from W, I've received 4+ junk mail from legal firms telling me I've had an action filed against me in family court.

This is not a surprise, and is fully mediated/uncontested (we live in a no fault state). I decided early on - part of a no pressure approach, and the only way M recovery is of value is if W decides on her own. I cooperated fully every time she scheduled a mediation session. Though I could have worked out the details in one session though my own research, I let her lead and pay for 5 sessions. I let the information and process come NOT from me, but the mediator. In the last session W was late, again -

Mediator, "G, do you know where W is? Is she on the way?"
G shrugging, "I don't know."
Mediator, "OK, well, you'll have your stuff together anyway..."

As often remarked here, WW/WAW often don't have a good plan or understanding what post D life really looks like. Running primarily on emotion.

Terms? Well, structured mainly by me for children first, then fairness and avoiding any legal fight (costly all over even if you are right) -

Total value is 50/50. Primary and retirement assets are all split 50/50. We keep our own vehicles. I keep the home and W keeps additional non-retirement investments to balance. I accept/keep vehicle and mortgage debts (low interest rate) balanced with keeping other investments (in the long run low rate debts are to my advantage). I pay a $7k credit card bill she ran up.

Children are 100% with me. Her RV is not really a place to house kids and in her words, "they don't like it there." I will continue to pay for all their expenses. She pays none. She may use the home to be with them during the week while I am at work.

I will pay monthly alimony of ~22% my income for 18 months to enable homeschool to continue for D17 and S12 as well as transport for D17's gymnastics. W claimed not to be able to work because of this. I said, no, you can and minimum wage is imputed to her as earnings. After 18 months, D17 will have graduated, have a drivers license, and I'll help D17 with a vehicle. The agreement states W is assumed to be able to make her own way after that. S12 has none of the same transport requirements.

In practice...

In practice so far, W shows up for between zero and 4 hours each weekday. Occasionally she asks if they are available to take them out for a few hours on weekends. I have given my personal word I will not restrict or block access to the children.

Last night, "S12, I think you'll be doing schoolwork with you mother tomorrow. In addition, here are the other chores for while I'm at work. Your sister will help you."
S12, "I don't know if there will be any school. Mom didn't say. I think she said she HAS to be dog sitting right now."
I checked the doorbell camera record before posting today. It looks like W came over for just under 2 hours. It looks like it included taking a shower as she came over in PJs and left with wet hair. She had said something about her water being shut off at the RV... Huh.

I know, I know, don't believe anything they say. Yet I am still taken aback and I keep expecting more involvement. At the same time, I have started to feel irritated whenever she does show up. This somewhat disturbs me. Peace and routine have been established with the three children and I. Her presence is disruptive to this peace and me...but the children also need their mother. What price do I pay to make sure they get what they need?

In the back of my mind I have also been thinking about what others have told me about the law and actual facts on the ground. The children living 100% with me, me paying for all their expenses, W visiting and taking them out occasionally, becomes the default new normal no matter what is said on paper. Changing it, should one party become obstinate, takes a very long time and the courts are reluctant to change anything that appears to be working.

g

[grok]

Travel and illness
Just checking in and starting a week of business travel away from home. It's been an exhausting last week, since my last post. Not bad. Just full.

D19 has a virus of some kind. Fever on and off since last Tuesday. That has kept me busy. It got up to 104 once and scared her. She's having a hard time dealing with it emotionally. She's great at the practical steps. This is her first experience at this where work is concerned.

"Dad, why can't you stay home with me?"
"Dad, how do I tell Mrs M and A that I can't come in for camp kids?"
"Dad, what do I say to Z and C about swim lessons?"
"I miss my kiddos at work!"
"Dad, I don't like it when you go away."
"Dad, I won't have a paycheck for this week! What do I do?"

And to D17's annoyance, every 20 minutes all day long, "Dad, I don't feel good. It hurts."

Whew! That last one is a true test of just validating how she feels...over, and over, and over....

Where is W? Don't know. Haven't tried to find out. Doing my best to leave expectations at zero. Acting as if I'm almost completely solo. Watching behavior...W has been pretty consistent in transporting D17 to and from her gymnastics. When I let everyone know I would be on business travel this week, W mentioned she had an in home pet sitting job that week, but would stop by. So, I set up the kids with everything they would need until Friday when I'm back.

activities
D17, S12, and I did go out to a church activity this last Saturday with brunch, throwing knives/axes, archery, inflatable water slides, etc... Not quite fantastic, but a good effort by all. Next Saturday a bike ride is planned with a friend and kids. Also casual fun times at home with badminton, a glowing ball and scoop game D19 picked up, etc... Bookstore with D17 who started picking up young adult novels. Hotwheels hunting with D19. Taking S12 to all the stores this time as my companion and advisor.

For me, well, less this week as things needed doing. My home server computer I built 6? years ago threw some errors so found a NAS on sale to replace it. I started transferring drives, files and accounts but it all takes time.

legal process
I received emails from the court system...good thing I check my spam folder every week. The court date is set for 9/11/2024. How about that? ... It echos what I told W near DB2. "W, you choose chaos and destruction." I had to laugh a bit also. The court also requires her to take another parenting class (state law) because the one she eagerly took in an effort to D fast is from last year and won't count. It really does take a fair amount of time.

g

[grok]

emotional capacity

Interesting evidence on emotional capacity and focus of a WW/WAW... While I am away she has come over more hours to be with the kids. D19 has been breaking down in tears a lot this last week in dealing with the stress, frustration and pain of the ongoing illness and fever. In my couple hours of FaceTime/online games with the kids this evening

D19 says, "I don't think mama can handle my crying. It's not like I want to. She HAS to walk the dogs, get something from the car, or anything when I'm crying."
G, "Well, she is dealing with her own issues right now D19. You can call me and cry. It's OK. You can let it out. I'm strong."
D19, "OK dad....I know, just....."

Well, I don't always feel strong. I will be to these three though. Man Up G.

W? I reviewed the doorbell camera to check on D19's impression. Yes, walking the dogs. Yes, exiting the house to sit in her car for a while. Yes, exiting the house to the front porch to apparently message OM (I know some of those behaviors) or something she didn't want infront of the kids for 20 minutes at a time.

The Feels

Perhaps I am melancholy, alone time in the hotel on business travel after I've ensured the kids are all given love, chores done, and in bed. Echoing D19, "it hurts" So a little club dance mix on the theme --- take a listen and you'll hear it.

Monument - The Inevitable End Version by Röyksopp feat. Robyn

This will be my monument
This will be a beacon when I'm gone, gone, gone
When I'm gone, gone, gone
When I'm-

Make a cast of my body
Pull back out, so that I can see
Let go of how you knew me
Let go of what I used to be

So that when the moment comes
I can say I did it all with love, love, love
All with love, love, love
All with love, love, love, love, love
All with love, love, love

g

[DnJ]

Good Morning grok

You and D19 are spot on. W is dealing with her own issues. She has little to no bandwidth for anyone else’s.

Couple that, with W having to come over more during your work trip. W sees more of damages caused, loss, memories of happier family times, and such. Lots of pressures upon her.

It is good to see D19 being so open with you. Crying in front of Dad. Articulating her feelings. Sharing her feelings. It’s good stuff. A mature and very healthy path/growth of emotional intelligence and empathy. She’s doing really well.

Keep on keeping on g.

D