Maturin - My Story (2)

[DnJ]

Good Morning M

She came home drunk, woke me up, and started with all the usual "I don't want to D, we can make arrangements" type talk. On the advice of others here I validated and asked questions rather than my usual "let's talk in the morning".

Good. This 180 likely surprised her.

Two key and seemly common points from her: She doesn’t want a D. She sounds willing to consider arrangements (for you and her, and in what form that be, still to be determined. The thing is, she is open to it).

The conversation then drifted to our sex life.

Last night I had perhaps the most difficult conversation with my wife since DDay.

Yep. Difficult conversation. A pretty common topic that couples often don’t discuss.

Well my wife opened up and told me it's not fun for her because of my PE issue, and it's always been the case.

Always been the case, is unlikely. A reoccurring event that has built up resentment over the years is more probable.

At any rate, W opened up. Shared something deeply personal. Something she has never shared.

I was falling apart inside but held it together.

Yes, there would be quite a bit of shell shock.

First thing, breathe. Just breathe.

Ego. Bruised and hurt. It’s ok.

PE is not rare. Something like 1/3 of the population experiences it. And it is treatable/manageable.

Stress, depression, trauma, one’s emotional state all play a part/cause too. The news from one’s partner, of course, furthering and deepening these aforementioned issues.

I would like some solid advice on how to move forward as a man.

Do some research. There are several techniques and strategies that help.

Speak with your doctor. Another difficult conversation. A quick internet search of PE leads to a trove of information. And some very open honest questions to ask yourself regarding time frames, life long or recent, solo effects vs partner, and so on; all which you speak with the doctor about.

Speak with W. Yes, more difficult conversations. Like I said, she opened up to you. Imagine the difficulty in bringing up such a topic/conversation. The ice is broken, it’s out in the open, and on the table. Do not just push it off the table. Explore. Discuss.

She claims we have never had a good SL, even claiming that when she hears other couples talking about "going at it like rabbits" when they were newlywed, she doesn't remember that for us.

That may or may not be “true” or a factual accounting of history. I suspect you remember things somewhat differently. Point is, it’s how she felt last night. So go forward, with a grain salt too. Remember, this is smattered within everything else going on. Sussing the truth / root causes requires patience and a steady approach. Demonstrated behaviours vs words. Her words have grains of truth, yet there are plenty of unspoken things from her side as well.

She also told me she pleasures herself regularly, which shocked me. Over the years she has claimed I have a higher libido than her, but now she admits she does have a sex drive.

She found herself long before she ever found you. Some guys have a really difficult time with that. Find your acceptance that she has a functioning sex drive. On occasion take over her solo controls before ML.

she dropped the bomb that she doesn't feel that attracted to me anymore after all that's happened.

Contrary to her words, W is still/somewhat attracted to you. I do have first hand experience being the recipient of indifference. If W was not interested, she’d not wake you up, nor tell you any of this stuff.

Do your research. Do what you can control. Be open to further conversations as she is willing to. The hardest part is getting these conversations started and out in the open, that’s happened.

Keep DBing, and keep moving forward.

D

[bustorama]

First, I agree with everything DNJ said. Also, be happy she shared her feelings with you. It indicates there is enough connection still there that she wants things to be different. She wants to feel more attracted to you so that she will want to go at it like rabbits with you. GAL and DB help to increase the attraction. So do listening and validation. So do new sexual experiences and ways of being in bed (anything with a 180).

Second, does it really matter whether or not this is revisionist history. All that matters is that it is her and therefore your current reality. Hear that, accept that, and move forward accordingly.

Third, part of being a man is accepting and then handling your issues, especially those that intersect with your partner. Like DNJ said, PE is not uncommon -- you're not alone -- and there are proven treatments to help address it -- you can do something. If you have looked into these before, it's time to do so again and up your game. You need to do this for yourself because it it will impact your sense of self and future relationships (with her or anyone else)

Talk to your doctor and also ask for referrals to both a urologist, for any physical components, and a psychologist who specializes in psychological issues around sex, like a sex therapist, for the mental-emotional components. It's totally expected that the PE has impacted your confidence in the bedroom -- I'd bet you are afraid to go all in or faster, afraid it might trigger PE, to try new positions, to talk dirty to her in ways you havent before, to pull her hair and dominate her. As you arm yourself with treatments and techniques to support your PE, you'll feel more empowered to rock her world.

Part of your challenge is to recognize that your self-doubt related to this issue gets in the way -- because you are hypervigilant during sex whether or not she is into it -- which takes away from the sex and your performance. You said when you all started having sex that you stopped because she wasnt into it. I bet you were painfully hyperattuned to signals of that, especially in that high-pressure moment. What if you instead had been hyperattuned to the opposite signals that she is attracted to you? That she wanted YOU inside her in that moment. That when she straddles YOU, even if disinhibited form alcohol, she's showing that she wants sex with YOU and not a sexless bedroom. That she wants to feel like she can go at it like rabbits with YOU. Your selective attention and performance anxiety around this gets in the way like a vicious circle. So, this is something you can work on with a therapist as well.

When she told you that she had pleasured herself, I hear that you felt shocked. Why do you think? Have you not pleasured yourself, esp. during this estrangement? It's kind of hot that your W pleasures herself. She's a sexual being. Did you tell her that's effing hot? If you felt threatened by it, why do you think?

Maybe you could talk about this with a sex therapist, but what's wrong with her bringing some of that self-pleasuring into your lovemaking. Does she normally? To increase her arousal. It's not uncommon for partners to use self-stimulation, and sexual aids in lovemaking. Maybe instead of feeling shocked or even threatened by it, how might it feel to invite it into your sex together if you do not now (180s)?

Or to suggest to her, hey the next time you feel like pleasuring yourself, call me in halfway and I’ll eff your brains out. If the PE may currently shorten the time that you are engaged in actual intercourse (while you are working that out), what about if her self-pleasuring, sex toys/aids, and anti-PE cream for you, and other non-intercourse forms of you pleasuring became part of your lovemaking? You could still be going at it like rabbits with her turned on seeing that you are a sexual being too. If her self-pleasuring during sex or you using sex toys and exploring alternative ways of pleasuring her have not been part of your lovemaking, they could be 180s as well. Shopping for sex toys/aids together that make things mutually fun. new, and less pressured? Getting her lingerie or new toys that makes her feel sexy or more aroused?

Reading about PE, it seems a lot of the techniques and aids you first practice how well they work to prolong sexual activity during masturbation and take those techniques that work into the bedroom. So you could try out some new toys or techniques on your own before initiating them with her.

PE affects your partner from the decreased sexual satisfaction and also the feeling of disconnect if one partner 'finishes' differently than the other, with a loss of attraction that can result from both. Finding alternative ways to increase her sexual arousal and to increase the likelihood that you both feel sexually engaged and fulfilled together can increase the attraction.

As can the fact that you have simply listened to and heard her feelings about this issue.

[Valeska19]

M,
From everything I have read - your wife seems to have a drinking problem. Until that is addressed, I'm not sure you can make much progress on your marriage because her relationship is with alcohol and you, unfortunately, are the third wheel.

[Maturin]

Two key and seemly common points from her: She doesn’t want a D. She sounds willing to consider arrangements (for you and her, and in what form that be, still to be determined. The thing is, she is open to it).

True, but much of her considerations fall under the category of "let's stay together for logistics purposes, but have other relationships outside the marriage". The other night she suggested this again, saying "you can do whatever you want, I just don't want to find out about it". I know this is her projecting, because that is what she wants. It's not what I'll accept for myself.

Third, part of being a man is accepting and then handling your issues, especially those that intersect with your partner. Like DNJ said, PE is not uncommon -- you're not alone -- and there are proven treatments to help address it -- you can do something. If you have looked into these before, it's time to do so again and up your game. You need to do this for yourself because it it will impact your sense of self and future relationships (with her or anyone else)

Agreed. I have actually already addressed this and have medications that should help. The issue is we haven't had sex since Dday in September, so I haven't been able to test drive anything. And when she mentioned to me that she has a strong desire for sex and then seemed completely uninterested in it when we started, it was difficult to process.

When she told you that she had pleasured herself, I hear that you felt shocked. Why do you think? Have you not pleasured yourself, esp. during this estrangement? It's kind of hot that your W pleasures herself. She's a sexual being. Did you tell her that's effing hot? If you felt threatened by it, why do you think?

The shock was mostly bc in the past, she has been adamant that she has no libido. But the other night she told me the opposite, and that she is very horny. She openly and candidly admitted that she is not attracted to me and doesn't know if she ever will be again. That hurt to hear then and it hurts to type now. I know from my months/years of work on myself that you should add "right now" to the end of anything a woman says, but this trend has been in place for some time despite my changes.

I handled the situation well IMO. I told her I'm glad she is taking care of herself, but that we should take care of each other. Then I asked her to tell me what she thinks about while doing it, which she balked at and then asked what I think of, which I shared.

Overall I am proud of how I've handled the last couple of days. Months ago I would have moped around the house but now I'm all good, DB'ing and getting on with GAL. At some point yesterday the conversation was referenced and she said "I didn't mean any of that. You say stuff you don't mean when you're drunk too." Nonetheless I cannot ignore the fact that my W - who had at least one PA - has admitted she is not sexually satisfied and doesn't seem interested in working on it. Now I find myself dead set on proving my sexual prowess to her when I should be focused on dropping the rope and opening the cage door.

In other news, I went skydiving this weekend. What a rush!

[DnJ]

Skydiving!

Wow!

Awesome!!!

[bustorama]

Does she make the 'open but don't tell' marriage proposals when she is sober too or just when drunk?

Re: sex attractions, consider that her resentments or turn offs about you did not happen overnight and built up over time maybe partly related to activities in the bedroom. Now that you have gotten PE treatment, those experiences might gradually change. What other 180's might be possible to change things up there so that she sees you in a new light?

The angry not attracted to you talk also is carrying other resentments/negative emotions unrelated to the sex. The listening and validation can help to unpack those.

And it can change

When she was first attracted to you, were there any things different about you then (physically, emotionally, activties) or in the way you interacted with/talked to her as compared to now?

In my case for example, one of the things I had forgotten is that I used to always flirt with my W in a dominating way. I had stopped doing that at some point and just treated her like my partner, wife, friend, and mom of my kids. Like I had almost friend zoned myself with her. And I rediscovered that she was re-attracted when I acted that flirtatiously dominant way towards her. I found I did it naturally again with other women while we were separated and they responded to it, and that made me realize I had stopped doing it with my spouse. Do you interact with her any differently than when she was pursuing you and turned on by you?

[Maturin]

My post below rambles a bit, so to summarize for those who don't want to read it:

1. Is it time for me to initiate a sober R talk after months of my W initiating them while drunk?
2. Is sex a good idea even if I intend to eventually D should the W not change? She is not in an active A.

Does she make the 'open but don't tell' marriage proposals when she is sober too or just when drunk?

Only when drunk. She initiates no R conversation whatsoever when sober, but when drunk it's all she wants to talk about. I know one of the DB rules is essentially "no R talk, ever", but I want to address this. Every time she gets drunk she tearfully tells me she's sorry and doesn't want to D, and then occasionally that conversation wanders from "I love you, please don't leave me" to "I don't think I was ever attracted to you". The other night was the first time I've heard her complain about our SL, ever.

When she was first attracted to you, were there any things different about you then (physically, emotionally, activties) or in the way you interacted with/talked to her as compared to now?

I'll think on this. Physically I have always been in great shape and that hasn't changed. Like most guys in my sitch I do think I lost the breezy confidence I once absentmindedly possessed and I have been working on rebuilding that for 2+ years. But boy, hearing you W tell you that you don't satisfy her sure puts a wrench in that process.

Last night I was being playful and fun with her throughout the evening, and she was bristling as usual. I pushed past that and stayed lighthearted about things, joking and playing with the kids. My approach after Saturday is basically "W thinks I am not a good lover, but I know that's not true and what I'm capable of in the bedroom". I made an attempt to initiate once we got in bed, which she rebuffed. I smirked and told her "ok, your loss". It was quiet for a moment and she said "you need to be nicer to me" which has been her line for a long time: if I were nicer, she would be more attracted to me. I played it off and made a joke, which then lead to about ten minutes of her engaging in "talking about your day" type conversation before bed.

One last thing: W has offered to plan a birthday dinner for me and asked who I wanted to invite. I had previously told her I didn't want to do anything and would make my own plans as part of the "drop the rope" approach. Yesterday she asked again and I told her it would be fine, we can do something. But now I am wondering if it's sending the right message to have that kind of thing done.

Overall my entire DB approach had been "drop the rope" and "she had a PA and now needs to earn the right to stay in this marriage", but the Saturday convo has rattled me and changed that to where now I feel myself engaging and wanting to prove myself. I don't believe I've made any mistakes - I'm not pursuing or pressuring her - but I wonder if this makes sense. One of the things she said when drunk Saturday was basically "If I don't have sex I'm going to explode", and I told her I felt the same. I see this as an opportunity to engage in sex as a release for both of us, and see if it in turns builds connection. All of my other expectations remain in place: for us to stay married there needs to be full transparency about the PA, W needs to go to IC (I already do), etc.

[Maturin]

Ok, W and I just had a talk and I could use some feedback on how I did.

W was sitting in the living room and engaged me to discuss house stuff. We joked a bit and I said "Listen, when you have time this week let's talk about what you brought up on Saturday." She said "okay" and I said "I have time now if you do" and things got started.

I shared with her what she said on Saturday while drunk (doesn't want D, she isn't attracted to me, wants me to sleep w other people, has an issue w my PE etc) and asked her to talk to me about how she felt. Without re-hashing the whole thing, here are the high level details:

- Regarding lack of attraction, she said "That isn't really what I meant. Lots of people go through difficult times in a MR".
- Regarding our SL, she agreed that at times it's been good. I acknowledged I have an issue w PE and want to address it. She didn't want to dwell here and I didn't push.
- Regarding sleeping w others, she said she thought that's what I wanted since she thinks I'm unhappy w SL. I listened and validated and just said "thanks for clarifying that" and moved on

Mostly I shut my mouth and validated her. I made a point to say I didn't want to talk about the PA at all right now, just Saturday's convo. She was heavily focused on the burden of carrying the secret of her PA with her for years and what that did to her. I said "I know, I've seen how you struggle" and "that must have been so difficult, I can't imagine" many times while we talked.

She does not want to divorce at all, but primarily bc of the kids and finances. She mentioned how much better things have been lately between us and overall. I listened and validated her. She seemed to light up just a teeny tiny amount here. However, this was by no means a "I can't imagine life without you" moment, but rather a "Being divorced would be a real inconvenience" moment.

The urge to explain and defend rose up in me constantly and I fought it down. I mostly shut up and listened. The one thing I did assert was this:

"W, I think of you as a bubbly, fun, effervescent person, even when you aren't drinking. I love that version of you, but I haven't seen it in a long time. You're on an island right now and have been for many years. Do I have that right? Why do you think that is?"

She agreed and shared that she has felt so criticized and judged by myself and others that she has holed up. I listened and validated.

I made a point of agreeing to nothing and saying zero about my plans for D or no D, and not to bring up the fact that she still needs to be transparent about the PA before I am comfortable cancelling D plans. At the end of the convo I offered a hug, which she refused because "I have to pee so bad right now!" TMI for the board I guess but it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows.

There is so much going on beneath the surface here with her. On the one hand, I think it's a little ridiculous that she had a PA and is now feeling sorry for herself about the consequences, but that is something I will only say here to those of you who have been in my shoes. As the betrayed partner I want her to do the work to regain my trust and confidence, and to see me as the prize. I'm not sure we are closer to that state yet, but it was a good talk. My plan remains to be consistent with 180s, focus on GAL, and drop the rope.

I can't thank all of you enough for the support.

[DnJ]

Hello Mat

You did well. You stayed to the few topics and didn’t get sidetracked or off into the weeds.

W seems to have taken the talk well. Let’s see how/if her actions match up with her words.

I made a point to say I didn't want to talk about the PA at all right now, just Saturday's convo.

Good.

I know you really want some answers. However, this particular topic will be extreme pressure for her. Don’t push. If answers are meant to come, answer will come. (More on this below.)

She was heavily focused on the burden of carrying the secret of her PA with her for years and what that did to her. I said "I know, I've seen how you struggle" and "that must have been so difficult, I can't imagine" many times while we talked.

Nicely done. Non-judgemental. Acknowledging and validating her feelings and stresses.

There is so much going on beneath the surface here with her.

Yes, the bulk of the spouse’s journey is hidden. Emotionally struggling within. Takes time. Lots of time, for them to sort out themselves. Keeping pressure low is critical to not stop whatever forward moment they are experiencing. It’s an internal journey for quite some time. And it will look glacially slow from our external view.

[W] shared that she has felt so criticized and judged by myself and others that she has holed up.

Yep. That emotional island she marooned upon. Nice to see her opening up to you.

the fact that she still needs to be transparent about the PA before I am comfortable cancelling D plans.

I think it's a little ridiculous that she had a PA and is now feeling sorry for herself about the consequences, but that is something I will only say here to those of you who have been in my shoes.

Good. Only share that here.

However, why do you see it as ridiculous?

Isn’t this the very thing you want? Her to feel regret, remorse, shame, etc.? Remember, her emotions are cranked to eleven and she doesn’t have much bandwidth for you or anybody else. Of course, she going to “start” with feeling sorry for herself. Deeper emotions, facing the pains she caused, facing the betrayal, and so on, come later.

As the betrayed partner I want her to do the work to regain my trust and confidence, and to see me as the prize.

Reconciling is hard. You, the LBS, have the lion’s share of the work to do. I know, totally unfair. If your marriage/relationship is to reconcile, you will need to lead and be her safe soft place to land. Not be a doormat. Be a healed, stable, good, man.

Yes, she has work to do. Trust will need to be regained with consistent demonstrated behaviours. And you need to be open to trusting her. Open to that possibility. Not to be too jaded and disillusioned that trust is impossible.

Sincere change - behaviour and personality - requires hitting rock bottom. That’s true for her, you, anybody. She needs to feel her pains and struggle her way forward, positively. The LBS doesn’t place insurmountable boulders in the path, and doesn’t pave the road in gold either.

What work from her do you need to see?



Have you forgiven her? Are you working towards that? Can you forgive? Have you ever? When you consider forgiveness, what do you think? Feel? Believe?

Are you forgiving her or her actions/the affair?

Forgiveness will free you Mat. Like I said, it takes rock bottom for a sincere change. Let go the need for answers regarding the A. There is nothing, absolutely nothing W can say or do that will earn your forgiveness. It comes from you, freely.

I definitely empathize and understand being the betrayed partner. Betrayal is the worst thing one can do to another person. There are a lot of things for you to let go of. Vengeance, retaliation, retribution, grudges, and so on. In doing so, you find, you acquire so much more than you ever realized.

Letting go, forgiving, doesn’t mean you condone. Nor does it mean you cannot hold her accountable for her actions. You do write paid in full on that bill you’re carrying around though. Ah, the lion’s share. Leading, influencing, gently steering; it’s a journey.

She seemed to light up just a teeny tiny amount here. However, this was by no means a "I can't imagine life without you" moment, but rather a "Being divorced would be a real inconvenience" moment.

Small positive progress/steps.

Of the two, I’d prefer the later.

Keep moving forward.

D

[Maturin]

W seems to have taken the talk well. Let’s see how/if her actions match up with her words.

Yes, this is the key here. Thanks for the reminder.

Regarding forgiveness, I have not yet forgiven her. To me, that would mean I can love her without the weight of her actions dragging me down. It would mean I have graduated beyond allowing someone else's actions to impact my own self worth. At the moment, I am overly concerned with her actions: when she goes out, socializes, etc. it looks to me like the behavior of someone who doesn't care what happens. How can I forgive someone who seems so indifferent to what she's done? I understand that forgiveness is for me and not her. But in a sense, I want her to want my forgiveness, and I'm not sure she cares. She acknowledged just now that she feels bad that she humiliated me, and she's said this before. But again, I don't sense that she sees me as the prize, as the man she wants above all others, and that my forgiveness would mean much to her.

Re-reading that I can see how it's very "her" focused and not "me" focused, and my focus should be on me. But it's an honest description of how I feel now.