Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 6)

[JRuss]

Thread 1: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692423&page=1

Thread 2: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2692430#Post2692430

Thread 3: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2697235#Post2697235

Thread 4: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2699765#Post2699765

Thread 5: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2705185#Post2705185

Hard to believe I'm on Thread 6. Nothing much to report in terms of improved R. W seems to have her mind made up and is taking slow, steady steps to decouple. She moved out of MBR about 2 months ago. We've been to MC twice, and it seemed to go well (she was engaged, participating, etc.) but has since told me she's only there so we can learn to communicate better with an eye toward minimizing conflict, not making things bad for the kids, etc. That wasn't why I had wanted to go to MC for so long, needless to say.

So I've pretty much gotten to the point where there isn't a whole lot more that I can do. I've been at this for 19 months now, I think. As I told my IC, there aren't any arrows left in my quiver. I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing, but with the knowledge that it's just for me and the children. If she moves back toward me, great, but I'm in no way expecting that. And, if I'm honest, I'm not sure anymore that I even want it.

With that realization (and it's really only been since this most recent weekend), I finally feel something that feels like it might be real detachment starting to take hold. It was critically important for me to be able to say honestly to myself and my children that I did everything I could to keep this from happening. And I think I can do that now, which has given me peace of mind (I'm finally sleeping better -- yes!), but you really can't detach when you're in active, full-on "Can I salvage this situation?" mode. Being in that mode is all about hope no matter what anyone says, and if you're hoping, you're not detaching (or at least aren't fully detached).

Gump -- you asked at the end of my last thread where things are in terms of my W's original "1-2 year" plan to end things to minimize the impact on the kids, get my youngest out of the school zone he needs this year and next, etc. The answer is I don't know. If we have any more R talks outside of MC, I think she'll want to get an apartment before then that we'd in her mind split weeks in alone, with the kids and one parent always in our home. If I really were to detach and not be overtly sad around her or do anything that makes her have to confront the human toll of her actions and decisions, then I imagine we could last that entire time. Who knows. That said, I am thinking more and more that I want to really make an effort to cut her out of my thought process. I want it to be about what's best for the kids and, if not in tension with that, what's best for me.

So likely no D busted for me, but I sure have learned a lot here, and I'll forever be grateful for the support I've been given. I'm a better person for it.

[ForGump]

I'm sorry your MC didn't turn out positive, as I had hoped.

It's extremely hard to detach while living together. So much of being in love is just animal attraction. And I'm not talking only about sexual attraction or objectifying your spouse. You have a whole person right in front of you, her whole presence, you see her, you hear her, you talk to her, day after day... how do you make love just fade away, when they've seeped into every cell of your body for years. We're not robots.

In the scenario you sketch, where your W gets an apartment, would you take turns using that apartment?

I hate to say it, but although you're starting to turn a corner, I think you have a long way to go. As do I. Every day I realize I've barely begun my own journey to detachment.

[JRuss]

Yeah, in her mind, we'd rent the apartment, then one of us would live there solo while the other parents in the home, then we'd switch, with the kids never leaving. I'm not sure, but I think I might tell her to go ahead and get the apartment, use it when she needs it, but I'm not going to use it. I don't think she has the legal right to make me vacate, but then she might just go get a bigger place and move the kids there every other week. The financial hit to the family as a whole would be a lot greater given the rent differentials, so I don't know what I'd end up thinking was the right way to go.

I definitely have miles and miles to go, Gump. If I'm even detached at all, it's been since all of Sunday, when she told me about what MC was to her, and I suddenly realized that that was the last great piece of ammo I thought I might have available (i.e., get her into counseling, have it slowly "work", however that happens, etc.). It was both really sad realizing that I have hit empty but also a little freeing. I felt relief, like I'd at least fulfilled my end of this terrible duty to fight as hard as I could.

I could be right back in it all with the flip of switch, or some small act of affection from her, most likely. But it has felt better in just these few days, and it's been a long, long time since I've been able to point to even 4-5 days of improved sleep and overall outlook/PMA.

Onward, I guess.

[ForGump]

Your last ammo is to physically separate and for you to be happy on your own, and for her to truly experience living w/o you.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your W sounds like a pretty difficult person. Not easy-going. Think not only about getting the Big Green Egg, but think about meeting someone who appreciates you for who you are.

Watching your hurricane on my TV, while I'm in my own.

[JRuss]

I can see that. But I suspect by the time I'm separated physically (whenever that happens), I'm gone and done, no matter what she does or says. BBQing on my green egg, enjoying a new life with the kids (when I get to see them) and not being totally obsessed with all of this like I have been for almost 2 years now.

She is a difficult person, no doubt. Unable to share her feelings and needs in anything approaching real time, then harboring grudges and resentment because her mind wasn't read. That was the supposed promise in my eyes of MC -- get to work on these communication and other issues, but it takes two to tango.

[JRuss]

But for a long time, I loved the challenge of peeling back the layers of this really complicated person and learning more andm more about her, how she thinks, what she struggles with, etc. And she loved me, too, although she airbrushes over that now.

[ForGump]

Don't think she can make me participate in [renting and taking turns at an apartment]...

It feels good when the waves of acceptance wash over me.

I'd be curious to hear how that decision (negotiation?) works out. She can't force you to share an apartment. I mean, if you say no, then what? The only card she has to play at that point is to divorce you, right? She can't force your hand, except to divorce you (wherein you'd be forced to negotiate the fate of the house & custody).

JR, I seem to recall seeing some book somewhere about doing a strategic separation in order to save a marriage. I wonder if your W would be amenable to doing that. Let her get a real taste for a life w/o you.

I like the way you put it, about the wave of acceptance washing over you. That's how I feel -- there are times I make a mental resolve to be OK, to accept my fate, and a feeling of peace washes over me, then it drain and dries off, then I feel stranded in a feeling of sorrow again.

[JRuss]

Gump -- re those "waves", it is the final stage of grieving, acceptance, finally showing up, albeit for not that long, yet. I still cycle through all of the stages: denial/bargaining, sorrow, anger, and those still get most of my moments, but I'm starting to know and understand each one for what they are, and that somehow helps lessen the feelings of just being buffeted and blown about. And then there are those moments of acceptance, and you see for a moment the promise the future outside of the M could hold. As opposed to the promise that the future could hold with her, which is just more of the bargaining/denial I've been caught up in for so long.

We'll see what comes of those "negotiations". She isn't going to do anything during the holidays, so it will be early 2017 at the earliest. If we don't do any R stuff or fight or have hard conversations outside of counseling, I think she'd be willing to keep the status quo until D. I think she thinks she could compel this apartment thing, but as I've researched it and asked around here at my firm (have a partner who does nothing but divorce work), she can't make me live in an apartment. She'd have to divorce me to get that sort of authority over domicile, selling the house, etc., since we're both on the deed. I don't think she understands this yet. WHere I live, there's also a rule that you have to be separated for one year before a divorce can be granted, although they will look back to the date on which one spouse moved out of the MBR in determining timing, which she's obviously already done as of September.

[ForGump]

Thanks for sharing the process of grieving and letting go ... it's what I'm going through. But there are two versions for me: one for me, and one for my kids. For me, it's somewhat easier to imagine being divorced from my W. I can imagine the positive aspects of it. It's difficult for me to imagine the positive aspects for my kids. There are no waves of peace on that beach.

[lt0402]

Not sure how I missed your new thread JR! I apologize for the post in the old one.

On the apartment thing, I offered my W this when we were discussing what to do w/ the house from now until the end of the school year. W wanted me out of the house so her and my D could live here until then. I told her that didn't work and if she'd like to have one of us out of the house we could do weekly swaps of the house w/ D staying here all the time. My W hated that idea, but she effectively just wants D with me only when it's convenient for her, so differing situations.

Around the stages of grief, I'm right there w/ you too. It's a constant cycling through every stage, though as this thing moves along, I find the cycling to be less frequent. An interesting thing my IC and I started discussing last week is the concept of willpower. I'd told my IC that I tend to hit the painful stages of grief mainly when I was tired/worn out. He started talking about research showing that we all have a finite amount of willpower. Once you burn through that willpower it takes time/rest to replenish it. Without a supply of willpower it's extremely easy to be susceptible to the path of least resistance which in our case is the pain of our situations. I've found that knowing and recognizing when my willpower may be burned up has helped me find balance when in the past I'd of succumbed to all the awful thoughts that come from my situation.

FG, on the part around our kids, I'm not sure we can ever create a fully peaceful beach for them. Best we can do is be the lifeguard on that beach who is there to rescue them when the waves do get rough. Easier said than done, but I know from following ya'lls situations you are both extremely adept and skilled lifeguards for your kids. I've no doubt that both of you will see them through this and onto happy lives on the other side.