seeking support 2 1/2 years in

[Zephyr]

Thanks kiwi for posting more details.

Some other details...

When did you get married?

How long did your husbands first marriage last?

Did you ever get explanation from him or his ex. What were the failinfs in that marriage?

Has what i thought were part of my 180 resource kit actually been me being a door mat?

Have you been letting him take advantage of you or have you been catering to him to the point of hurting yourself? If no, then you have been letting him live his life. You have made a choice that you will not interfere with his quest for whatever he is seeking. That is not being a doormat.

Has what i thought was detachment implied that i am ok with ExH actions?

Detachment is you taking control of your life and your reactions. If you are truely detaching, you no longer allow his actions to control yours. You are free willed as is he. If you are not ok with his bullcrap or if you are, it really doesnt matter...you have chosen to not let his quest destroy you. You have made a concious choice to not hold onto him and he can be what he thinks he needs to. It is early here...so maybe not making sense, but to answer your original question, no you havent given him any indication right? At some point you are going to set a big boundary, and that is 'i will not allow your crazy battshit insanity hurt me or these boys financially with this separation' that is not condining anything.

Have i implicitly condoned his behaviour by not doing my usual rant/rave/ "i'm right you are wrong" act?

For good o bad, everyone has free will. His choices are his. If his choices are hurting you, you need to protect yourself. It sounds like a separation agreement is in the works, so no i dont think you are condoning his actions, you are protecting yourself from financial harm with an s agreement, legitimate parenting agreements, etc.

Feeling better for typing my thoughts out however, and for feeling as if i am not going it all alone - and some of it is so crazy that only those in the know would ever believe.

Keep tying to get this out.

You have been reading and working, that is clear. You are not raw like so many who come here...when they have just been blindsided and are still reeling.

I am very proud if your composure! I get that aome days it doesnt always feel like our heads are necessarily screwed on tight, but my gut tells me you are getting a real solid footing.

I will. Leave the parenting questions to others who have gone through this, but on the outside...your h showing an interest in your kids, i dont think it is necessarily a terrible thing.

Also, how deep into the mlc forums have you gotten. I think it will be a good idea to get through your first thread or two, to get to know folks, get a solid footing w8th moderation and eventually make your move over there.

There are A LOT of folks over there going though this exact situation and they will be an amazing support network for you...i am very sure you will have some lessons learned to share with them too.

[Painter]

Thank you Painter and JellyB for pointing you this way.

Deep down i too believe the boys will be fine - but on the dark days i question that with knowing that their dad seemed fine too...He has lied cheated and stolen from them as well from me and walked away from us all.

Good, in fact great point about the positive male role models. S14 is well surrounded, but i am floundering a bit for S12. This is a good tangible thing i can work on - i like goals

I really really struggle with the thought that OW could be a positive presence in their lives. Nice people dont have affairs with other peoples husbands in my experience. i will see if i can word my thoughts well enough to express your point about his forcing them on her when they would rather have time alone with him. That would at least help me feel i had tried my best in that regard.

How have some of the rest of you managed to get your heads around this bit?

I try not to think about the boys Grandparents - while my thoughts re XH are conflicted - love but not like , i am 100% sure how i feel about XIL's and choose just not to go there for my own mental health. It does leave me to think this is a no hope for reconciliation scenario - this is just who he is and who he has been brought up to be. To be fair reconciliation is not even a consideration at this point - just living the best life possible is my focus.

I did discuss with a lawyer filing a police report - but it was pointed out that i would probably get in trouble myself for being a nuisance since i know exactly where everything is. Perhaps i could just tell XH that i was going to and see what happened. I have a bit of an honesty issue since this all occurred - cant cope with lies or part truths and need things to be squeeky clean honest so I am not sure if i could manage that. Will leave it with the lawyer.

Poor poor lawyer who so dearly wants to file for divorce on my behalf

The boys' posessions are with their father, so technically not stolen. You can ask in the settlement agreement that the children have free access to their belongings, meaning that they can take them between houses as they wish.

Missing marital property can also be addressed in court. If H swears he doesn't have it (which I doubt he will in court), you should be able to file a police report of it as stolen.

Games with stuff is v. common. H's ex told the kids they couldn't take clothes from her place to our place because I'd cut them up with scissors.

OW could have been fooled. She may be a nice person. I believe I may have been fooled when I met H. H still sticks to his story about his ex having an A and being too crazy to live with (which is true - she suffers from mental illness and was horribly abusive to her children), that they were S when we met, but after noticing many similarities between how we started and how his A with OW developed, and how good he is at lying, I now can't help wondering if he did the same back then. That's why I made sure to tell OW what the facts were. She still pursued him, and most revealing to me, never told H that I made contact.

[Sotto]

Hi Kiwi, I said I would drop by and say Hi! Glad you've started posting and are receiving some helpful responses. There are similarities in our sitches - apart from H and I have no kids together, but I have been very involved in SS's life from age 4 to 14 when we S. I keep in touch with SS still.

It sounds as though you have been doing pretty well in difficult circumstances. I sympathise with having OW around the kids, which must be a hard thing to take. Also, I find it a bit odd to be engaged to someone else before your own marital situation is resolved....what's that all about?? Ah, MLC of course. Only the MLCer (or love-addict sociopath) would see no problem with that.. As for your kids, I think it's a good thing that their Dad shows some interest - even if it comes with OW in the sidecar. I know that must be pretty rough for you, but they have been 'established' for some time now and I guess it was always going to happen. ((((((Big hug))))

Anyway, just wanted to say welcome & wish you well with things xx

[Painter]

Also, I find it a bit odd to be engaged to someone else before your own marital situation is resolved....what's that all about?? Ah, MLC of course. Only the MLCer (or love-addict sociopath) would see no problem with that..

H did that... gave me a ring before he was D. They were legally separated at least, but I still thought it was premature. I chalked it up to cultural differences, but I shouldn't have.

Ah, it's a life long learning process, isn't it...

[kiwiGAL]

Hmm, still obviously new to this, where did my post go?

I had started saying that i am somewhat ambivalent towards OW, and am sure she has been charmed by XH creative story telling which has been reinforced by his family. That aside, i do not think it possible in a population our size and with social media to blindly accept XH's stories and it must be a conscious choice to accept what she has been told in our particular situation. I am a long way from being able to see her as a potential positive presence in the boys lives.

I do feel it will not be a nice place to be when she or he wake up and that my life must be much more stress free.

Thank you so much Painter for your advice about perhaps letting Xh know his insistence on OW being present if the boys want to spend time with him may in fact lead the boys to like her the the situation even less. I took your advice and applied some DB magic today.

I phoned XH - a huge reversal for me for starters - and left a voice message - i never leave a voice message - and then sent an email telling him i was sorry to miss him by phone as i it is so easy to get words in print out of context thanking him for something he had bought S12 recently, saying i wonder if the boys might actually dislike OW and situation more as it means they get less alone time with Xh.... to please let me know his thoughts as the boys really enjoy spending time with him.

I got a whole stream of thoughtful, civil and basically sensible replies! Now, i have learnt the hard way to have no expectations, but he has said he would like to have a big talk with the boys and open up some dialogue ('dialogue' - really? S12 and S14 are smart kids, but 'dialogue' with your teen sons - ah that made me laugh) . So i have been able to talk with the boys and brainstorm with them about how they would like to spend time with their dad and offered that he may talk with them about it sometime soon, and if not, they might like to tell him their thoughts at some stage A happy mommy moment.

A part of me equally worries about the 'dialogue' and what it could entail, but think some knowledge for the boys is better than none. Thank you Painter and the others, I would still just be brooding without this site and your advice/experiences and support.

Sotto, i am with you, Xh interest in the boys can only be good for the boys (fingers crossed icon here!), i think because i had adjusted to a more total absence it threw me into a panic.

My life might be on a more finely strung balance than i had realised - something else to work on for me.

Thank you Zephyr for your lovely replies to my questions - i feel like you are a cheer leader for the cause and feel stronger to carry on my way with your replies.

I will try to give more history tomorrow. It may or may not be relevant, i smiled at love-addict sociopath - i have been thinking narcissist - and i usually pride myself on not labelling people - Xh just cries out for a label and a box. Labels aside, my take on managing the best i can is that i would behave the same as i am trying to do. Live the best life i can with the boys and let him get on with whatever it is he is up to. Just a tiny concern that perhaps what i told the boys might differ if i was certain of a label.

Good night from kiwi land.

[Zephyr]

We all lose posts from time to time, especially if you are using a mobile to type. It is not fun

I love that you are ok with aharing, it is a.great chance to start getting things out...and once that starts we have a chance to start moving forward so YAY!

And as for the cheerleader, love the analogy however im not so sure i would look that good in a pom-pom skirt.

[kiwiGAL]

Some back story:
Xh and i met when we were 17/18 and dated as teenagers do - and broke up as it all seemed a bit serious a bit soon/lots of living to do etc.

Xh then met, married and divorced someone else all in under 2 years. He and his parents described this relationship as 'never right' and 'very different' to ours. Xh and his family told me that there was a lack of trust and Xh XW accused him of having an affair - oh poor Xh to be accused of such a thing (sarcastic hindsight). Xh hoped in his car and drove home to Xil's immediately following this accusation.

Xh never spoke to her again after driving away.

Friends of Xh said we were very different and right for each other.

I completed my studies and travelled for several years - a very Kiwi thing to do.

On returning to Kiwiland, friends told me that Xh was divorced and i was curious about how i would feel seeing him again 8 years after we had last seen each other - i traced him down, phoned, arranged to meet and we fell back in love. Dun dun darrrrrn.

We became engaged very quickly, a matter of months, moved in together and got married. 2 years later son number 1, three years later son number 2.

Due to previous history, i prided myself on conversation we had prior to marriage and kids, that many couples may never have in a lifetime. Xh and his family are charming delightful liars and I now question the conversations had on which i based my expectations of our future.

16 years later, Xh spending behaviour - which had always been a contention and extreme, something he was teased about by friends and encouraged in by family. escalated to the point i issued an ultimatum. Please do not spend money. Spending like this is hurting our family. If spending continues like this, boys and i likely to be better off away from you - may have to divorce.

Hindsight - this ultimatum which i though was uttered calmly and from a position of concern and love, triggered bizarre secret extreme spending - We had a sizeable income, Xh working full time, me working part time in well paying positions. I experienced situations like filling the car with petrol to find no money in the account to pay for it, phoning my parents to come quickly to pay for petrol already put in the car. Xh explanations exhibited alarming selfishness - 'i needed money and it worked out ok, your parents helped out'.

Following an accident in 2013, i needed shoulder surgery and had time off work meaning i was at home alot. One weekend, Xh behaved very strangely, arranging an activity for himself and one son - but not myself or other son. I was very hurt and arranged fun day for other son with some friends; then started prying. Worried that Xh was having a breakdown/brain tumour/adverse reaction to heart medication he is on. That is when i discovered his affair.

When sons were safely at school after the weekend, i told Xh we needed to talk, i knew what was going on. Xh denied denied denied - then admitted affair. Xh stated he had to leave. He could not stay. He was not happy and had not been happy for months/years/ever...

I cried/questioned/called Xil's and made therm talk to Xh. Xh told me 'i bought him a t shirt for his birthday, and he already had alot of t shirts' hoped in our car, and drove away to OW.

I have since suggested to the boys not to buy their father any t shirts, it seems he has enough (??!!)

Xh has never mentioned divorce (though is engaged to OW), never uttered ILYBANILWY, but has said at one other time that i treated him like a child. I think that is a fair comment i probably did. The t shirt comment i am not overly sure about - i did buy him a t shirt and was mighty proud of getting him anything 4 days after major shoulder surgery when most people would still be bed bound!

Since then, Xh has lived with OW. He has dropped most of 'our' friends and reconnected with friends from his 20's, made friends with OW's friends and lives a young single life.

Xh walked away from me, our sons, our friends, our renovation project house and our financial striffe.

Xh moved in with OW and took his large salary and joined it with her large salary and has continued spending extreme amounts.

The boys do not know when they will see or hear from Xh from one day to the next - but he does buy them large presents. Often the wrong size but the boys and i have become skilled at returning/trading things so they are living a strange combination of a simple beans on toast life with label clothes latest bikes wakeboards etc.

Xh would take items from the house/shed each time he did arrive to see the boys, and sometime come past and take things without staying to see the oys. He denies takign anythign except guns, which he only admitted to taking when i said i would have to go to the police as they were missing. One day i found him in our shed taking a chainsaw (all other power tools were already gone - there had been many, we were renovating a huge house on a huge piece of land). I said 'really Xh, you would take that from the boys and I trying to finish this house to sell it. You would take that to OW house to renovate her house?'. he left the chainsaw. OW house is now painted the same colours as the house i completed the renovations on and had to sell because the mortage was enormous.

I have been incredibley fortunate with friends and family. A friend just happened to call in as Xh was driving away on BD day - and found me in absolute shock and has been a rock. She googled 'how to help a friend who has been abandoned' and was the most perfect support imagineable.

I called my brother and said Xh has just left, can you please come. Brother said, what now? and i said yes please - now. Together they helped me come up with lists of practical thigns to do. Call the bank - ha to late!, call a lawyer. find a counsellor - so that i could work out what and how to tell the boys. They bought me food and made me eat - wow they were amazing.

I have been surrounded by amazing people ever since which is lucky because there has been alot to do.

I have completed the renovations, sold the marital home. Found a full time job that does not take all of my time. Changed the boys schools - no longer at private school- but the local schools and are doing well there. I have found us a home and have maintained the boys activities. All of this without the benefit of any of our relationship property which is tied up in accounts/businesses etc. Due to the debt, there wont actually be much to divvy up - but there will be some and that will be a help to the boys and i.

Just lately, as Xh has started to show interest in the boys, i have realised i am exhausted. I cant quite maintain the level of output from the last 2+ years and think i need to find a better balance.

Perhaps that is where Xh comes in?

Phew - rather odd to type

Xh now denies that his relationship with OW was ever an affair. I am unsure what his current friends/family circle are told but they are very accepting of OX and Xh as a wonderful couple. I cant be toooo bad in the tales, or more effort would be made to spend time with boys/not leave them with me/protect them from me

I took solace in MLC for quite some time, but do wonder if Xh is simply a narcisist. He is a very skilled charming liar. His family are the same. Xil's have not seen and do not contact the boys - their only grandsons - either.

Oh bizarre times.

[kiwiGAL]

I would love some points on my attempt at validation - and next step needing to out boundaries in place.

For 2 years after BD, XH simply had little contact with our boys and I. Hoped in a car and drove to another city where he has lived with OW since. He has continued to buy the boys expensive label and sports gear, just has not seen them or made contact with them regularly or as per the parenting plan we had developed.

Recently, XH has been making contact with our boys and I have supported them spending time together - although they (and I) would prefer it was time with just XH, he insists on OW being present, and 'bribes' the boys with fun activities that they want to do.

Through this recent contact XH had advised he would take the boys to several upcoming sporting events in his city and another one distant to where the boys and i live.

Just last night XH emailed to advise that he could not take the boys as he had previously advised. I immediately felt cross and sad and questioned my level of detachment!

I sent a rather hasty reply effectively saying shame, your choice, and questioning how hard he had tried to ensure the arrangements would work - oops! But i was cross!

XH replied by email immediately justifying his actions and advising would love nothing more than to be at these events with our boys.

I had finally wised up and sent no reply - tried all night to get onto this forum for help - my dillema was should i just validate - eg 'that sounds frustrating.'

or should i validate AND set boundary. eg ' that sounds frustrating. In future we need to stick to parenting plan if etc...'

Without the benefit of the DB forum, i thought and thought then slept remarkably well - no anger/rage or overwhelming sadness
This morning I decided that this was the chance to simply validate. That in itself is a 180 - no 'but', no 'in the future'. Just validation.

I do hope to set contact boundaries with him now that he is in contact - and mucking with our lives to be fair - but decided in the long run, this was not the moment.

The boys are now registered for these events and looking forward to them. My usual response would be to bend over backwards to make sure they can get to and compete at these things.

While i have felt as if i am running on empty after the busy-ness of the last few years, I still want to make things work out for the boys and to make alternate arrangements for them. My plan is to let them know that XH advises he can no longer take them, and to discuss options with the boys themselves. Then to advise XH of how we have arranged to manage the events while advising him of a boundary around contact so that the boys and i do not continue to be let down/mucked around at the last moment.

Please let me know thoughts/feedback suggestions/boundaries that have worked for you

[kiwiGAL]

Feeling powerful and empowered just now.

I have taken little satisfaction in some of the very big things i have achieved since BD, getting a full time job, finishing renovating or family home - then selling it, finding a new wee home have all seemed just a part of the things i have HAD to do.

Today i went to the dentist - and it was just for me and it was great. I had not been in 10 years! Too busy being 'wife', 'mother', 'daughter' and even 'sister'. The best part was no nasty work was needed - even after all that time. So since i had budgeted for at least one filling, i have had my teeth cleaned and polished and come away with whitening trays instead.

I love my smooth shiny and already white teeth.

I am important - and now i have lovely teeth too

[Vanilla]

The way I see it:

Validation and boundaries are two separate issues.

Never validate a bad behaviour or poor performance. Completely inappropriate. Be neutral.

Validate and acknowledge feelings not thoughts or behaviours.

I would not validate in this instance. I used to foster teenagers and often enough parents would fail to fulfil their promises. It is worse to cover for it as that contributes to the smoke and mirrors, it makes you appear complicit and flaky. When you make a promise it's rock solid isn't it? Your children can take it to the bank? That's enough, then validate that WH promises aren't worth much sometimes. That is reality.

Quite simply it is a boundary issue about not sticking to the parenting plan, problem is you need to enforce the boundary which you can. Although it may not be worth the effort, just shrug it off.

Your boys are old enough to have an R independent of you with their dad and you can leave them to it. Get out of the way.

STFU on OW being in attendance as otherwise you may be accused of 'spoiling' the soup. Let reality bite for WH.

I would consider not getting in the way and not compensating for WH losses.

It isn't your job to cover for WH. If he promises and doesn't deliver then he doesn't, his loss. It is up to him to advise the boys, tell him so and don't cover. If he lets them down at the last minute he should tell them himself.

I would make that your boundary and get out of the way.

WH have you advised the boys that you have cancelled? In future you can deal directly with them on activities, as long as it fits with the parenting plan you can arrange activities with them. Just keep me in the loop. The boys are old enough to deal with you on activities you arrange in your parent time.

The modus of your WH sounds like devaluation and discard. It runs deep and likely to be personality driven.

It is my view he doesn't want to marry OW, she is just a convience or resource for WH. If you D him, which would be my very strong suggestion to firm any fins and parenting plan then WH will have little choice with this OW. He may devalue discard and move on, it's his history.

OW are always affair down, so it is likely WH will move on. At least this one has resources ie cash.

Just my 2c worth

V