Last night

[kyrie]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2642343&page=1
Ok friends and task masters, help me navigate a pattern.
Everyday I go to work early in the morning (sole provider for you just jumping in mid-crap-stream here). Each afternoon I come home, check in and connect with the kiddos (H picks them up from school) and get started on chores & dinner. We play a video game or get caught up on household stuff (in the past we've gone for walks when weather is good), etc. Bath time, prep for tomorrow, prayers & bed. A decent routine generally. After the girls go to bed, we'd sit and watch something together (that was typical of the past). Sometimes in this Purgatory we'd still do that. Or H would even occasionally open up about his day. I don't generally ask, other than "How are you". But many nights he will sit in silence. If I leave him then I'm accused of avoiding things. If I do small talk then I'm just fake and I should know he doesn't care for small talk. If I suggest doing something else or watching something that's ignored and he stays stony. Often he has expressed that he shouldn't be the one to start things & that I should know by now what he wants. Yes, I know that's a manipulation game and I shouldn't buy into it.
I also know the started DB thing is GAL. So, my question:
at the end of the day, girls are in bed (9pm), I really don't want to leave the house. I'd rather just enjoy the evening (as I stated last night), try to connect in some way (could be physical, could be whatever - don't care!). But that's not where we are at right now. Suggestions?

Last night he said he doesn't like it when I'm around and sex with me leaves him feeling empty and dishonest. I get that. Frankly, I felt like saying "guilt will do that" *BUT* I refrained and know that's not helpful. Didn't say anything.

I'm hoping tomorrow I can maybe talk to the DB coach. We'll see - timing is SO hard.

[kyrie]

*stated* DB thing, not *started* - no more edit function huh?

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

You're asking us what you should do to fix the situation. You can't fix him.

Do something for yourself once the kiddos are in bed. Let him sit in his poopy diaper. He wants you to mind read and clean it. It's his mess.

Trying to connect is the issue - YOU'RE trying to connect, you have a need for emotional fulfillment. From your posts, he's not doing that.

Can a book, a project, a craft, journaling, something besides talking with him fill that need?

GAL'ing doesn't mean leaving the house - you should be there for the kids if he's as unstable as you write.

What about running on a treadmill for half an hour? What about practicing an instrument? Painting? If it's not too cold out, taking a walk around the neighborhood for an hour?

Just a few suggestions. I'm reading what I can, and posting on this board. That's keeping me in my game. Also, going to be walking on the treadmill starting tomorrow - back at it, back to losing my 40 lbs by 40 - 2 months to go, and 15 lbs to go. Got to get on it, now that my achilles is healing up.

[Drew]

And stopping letting him spew at you. It's flat out abuse and you should NOT put up with it. The minute he starts, I mean the MINUTE he starts, put your hand up, tell him STOP I will not be treated this way and walk away. If he follows you to continue, kindly tell him that you will talk to him when he can treat you like a fellow human being.

People treat us the way we let them treat us.

Time to put your BGP's on.

[kyrie]

Hi Trumpet (and Drew - welcome to my Purgatory),
Remember, when I do that, he persists or accuses me of not caring, controling the sitch and that's the opposite of my 180.
Sometimes its not all spew... he sincerely seems to want to work on things, it's his method that's the issue.
How do I respond since that's the opposite of my 180?
I'm so dense. Y'all are so patient.

Hey Trumpet - rock on with losing weight & being more healthy. Sounds like you've come SO far. I'm so happy for you.

[Drew]

How do I respond since that's the opposite of my 180?

How's that 180 working out for you???

DB101 - Do more of what works.

I also feel you should go back and read the books again. It seems you're struggling with some of the basic concepts.

he sincerely seems to want to work on things, it's his method that's the issue.

Actions speak louder than words. When his actions say he wants to work on things ...

In my opinion, he's got it pretty good. You pay the bills, take care of the house and kids, etc. He gets to play, surf porn, visit strip joints, have a mistress, be holier than thou, and blame it all on you. And you just take it.

Like another poster said, maybe he needs a taste of what life would be without you.

[trumpet]

Kyrie,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. The roller coaster is really going strong last week and this week. On the treadmill for the first time in 3 weeks tonight - it's way too cold to run outside right now!

Your husband is someone who has/had great faith, correct? I attended a lutheran HS, was a campus ministry leader, went to youth rallies, play in church (sing/trumpet - duh!) since I was a kid, did chamber choir in college... I'm not a bible-thumper, but those who know me from college know that I was the man to talk to when you wanted to talk about religion - for better or for worse.

All this to say - your husband and I probably have a lot in common.

If he's dealing with what I dealt with, it's that he has to go DEEPER into the porn to get out what he needs to get aroused. Thus, the EA's you talked about. The nudie clubs. It makes sense - it's deeper into the addiction. Need a bigger hit.
It also made me more mad and angry at myself that I couldn't stop. I'd be in church on Sunday crying out to God that I'm sorry, and I'd feel his forgiveness, but I'd be back at it, as it got me to cope with my reality. No sex from the wife again? Well, I can take care of that right here... and it felt good. For guys, the release is wonderful, and the stress melts away. The shame fills the holes where the stress was, though. And the shame is cumulative. It blots out all love coming from your spouse and from God.

He knows he needs to stop. He wants to stop - deep down. He knows his anger isn't really him. But the stress to be who he is - a pastor - and the life he's leading behind closed doors is ripping him apart.

It's ripping you apart.

And that's why you need to find help. You want to save your marriage? Save yourself first, and your kids. Saving him will come - his rabbit hole might be a lot deeper than it is now.

This is my opinion, but I'm going to counseling, going to a hidden addictions group, so I have first-hand knowledge. NONE of this made sense until I admitted I couldn't control the addiction, and called it an addiction. My wife's affair started my bottoming out, and realizing I needed help.

I cried again in my counseling session today... not for me, but for my wife, who as of right now is trying to make it back from her EA. I cried because I now see how much pain I caused her, and how I did so much damage to her. How the years piled up, and how worthless she felt, how helpless she was to watch me be addicted to something she didn't understand and couldn't tolerate. Some women do tolerate it - and I actually see Zues's side of this, where some wouldn't consider pornography cheating, since it doesn't involve another person physically, and I never loved the women I watched. They were lovely to look at, but did I ever get to know them? Their real names? No way - that was the 'other' world.

My wife considers it cheating. Guess what? I have to live with that. She's my wife, and I hurt her. And now I understand. Lots more 'I'm sorry's' in me to come.

My wife is addicted - to OM. It took me 8 weeks to really see the fog lift from my addiction. I have to give her AT LEAST that much time. She needs to get counseling for the EA - someone other than me to tell her what she needs to do. I have all the answers - my pride speaking - but I've done so much research, I'd love to share. I just have to keep my mouth shut, and pray to God that she finds the same sites I do. Ugh. That's difficult. I'm the fixer.

Should you stop having sex with him?

How about this question: should you continue to give a drunk a drink?

If he feels empty and hollow due to your sex, he's equating your sex to what he sees on the screen. There is no emotional connection - that is lost on him, due to the addiction. If you have needs, I understand, just realize 90 days is typical for complete withdrawl of symptoms in a pornography addiction. I'm on day 75 I think, and days 40-55 were really tough. My body seems to be much better now. Sex was on my mind a lot in days 40-55.

I see three things that need attention:

1.) YOU! Take care of you - don't let him spew at you. You need to read the book Boundaries.
2.) Your husband. His addiction. His depression. His anger.
3.) Your marriage.

Just like I'm struggling with my wife, since I can't control the pace at which we fix things, you can't control your husband. Take care of you - be the best Kyrie you've ever thought you could be. Proverbs 31 - give it a read.

Second, I'd recommend a professional's take on how to help your husband. I was the addict, my wife was the adulterer. Your husband has both going on, so good for you for not having to deal with your own demons.

Speaking of demons - don't just take what you see as weaknesses to the Lord. The Lord is giving you the gift of time and the awareness to know that maybe something needs fixing within YOU. Maybe you're broke, and need fixing as well. Pride is so difficult a sin. We need to have some pride to stand up against the world and what it throws at us, but we need to be humble enough to know we all need HIM. When we're humble, HE speaks to us - in whispers.

If you husband is defiant and unwilling to change, you can't change it. But talking to someone other than the Bishop might start the ball rolling.

FYI:
I take an SSRI - lexapro. Took it when I had difficulty with emotions after getting out of college. It makes me the real 'trumpet', not someone who's always high one minute on happiness, and debbie downer the next. It's a small dose, but it helps - a lot. It also decreases libido - another topic for another day!
Does your husband take something?

[tl2]

kyrie,

In all relationships there has to be a minimum standard of acceptable conduct in order for people to remain connected, or attempt to connect, in a way that is healthy and positive. Based solely on your posts that I've read, you two are not there.

Based on DB principles, there's not a lot you can do until you and your H are both on the same page. Treating you with basic respect includes talking to you in a non-aggressive, threatening, or accusatory manner as much as it does not pursuing other women behind your back, etc.

When you point out things like, "Remember, if I walk away I get accused of ...", I think you are taking responsibility for his behavior and that is not healthy on your part, and abusive on his part for forcing you into that situation.

Doing a 180 does not include doing the opposite of enforcing basic decency and healthy, polite, respectful conduct and communication.

I'm not judging anyone nor telling you what to do. But if you had a daughter who was married to someone talking to her that way, and she came to you and said she felt like it was always her responsibility to keep the peace and not do anything to 'provoke' her husband's bad behavior, what would you think about that?

[tl2]

What I meant to type previously was, "Based on DB principles, there's not a lot you and he can do together to piece the marriage..."

Obviously there are things you can do on your own.

[Zues126]

I will keep my retort short in comparison with how strongly I feel it: I don't believe H's porn use 'requires attention'. Not your circus. Your choices, your boundaries, your behavior...sure. Not his. Interventions, walking away to try to concoct a rock bottom, none of this has anything to do with DB principles. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of advice, but this is a DB forum and I try to make it clear when my advice differs from that of Michelle's.

The question about sex still boils down to the question both I and 25 posted...is porn use something that equates to divorce? It isn't for everyone, so it really is your choice. It IS hard to sort through this when your M stinks, and you have unmet needs, and the road ahead looks impossible. It almost looks like the ticket out so you don't have to deal with this, and you can just find the next marriage.

For me, all I can say is this: Either your partner is irreplaceable, or they are replaceable.

Do you want a relationship with someone that is irreplaceable, and that thinks you're irreplaceable? Or are you ok with a series of 5-10 year relationships that burn bright for a while until they get difficult and don't work out the way you want, so find the reason to bail and find someone else?

Clearly abuse and ongoing adultery is a deal breaker. Just be sure you understand the consequences of the choice you make to lump porn in with serial cheating. Not only will it end your marriage, irreplaceability cannot be replaced, ever.

So...to the sex. If you aren't willing to stay with him, and you look down at him for what he's doing, then I can see why he'd feel it's dishonest. Sex=acceptance/approval/admiration/love for a man, if that's not there then it would feel dissatisfying. Nothing to do with your inability to compare to a screen IMHO. A screen can't give him that. You can. But if you DON'T, then a screen would give him the illusion of something you aren't giving him. If that makes sense. So no, if you're feeling used and he's feeling empty, I don't see the point.

If, however, you decide that he is a great man...not WAS a great man...not COULD BE IF HE...but that NOW, even with his imperfections, he still is a great man, and you want to be his wife, and love him, and support him through thick and thin...then sex makes sense. And if you felt that way, and told him that, that you don't like it, but you love him, and that he's your lifelong partner, and you will die with him unless he leaves you, and if he wants to quit you'd love that and would support him in any way you can, but if he doesn't you'll stick with him to the end, and love him forever, and you'd love to show him that by giving yourself to him in every way you can...I doubt he would find THAT dishonest, and in fact would probably love it. He may not believe it. He may test it to see if he can catch you in an act. But that's what he needs from you, if you are going to stay his wife.