Letting go, finally

[JGuy]

First thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2623444&page=1

Second thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2630437&page=1

It's funny how quickly the subject field of these threads becomes incorrect. It's good to be starting another thread, since the subject of my previous thread "WW is onboard with trying to save the M" definitely isn't true anymore. The new subject for this thread, which is true for me right now, is "Letting go, finally". Perhaps this will hold true for longer. If I am successful in finally detaching then I expect it will.

Toward the end of my previous thread, Zeus was helping me to understand how I can detach and let go, but without burning bridges and throwing away the M. As of right now, I have been fully in the process of letting go for only 3 days. Before that, I was flip-flopping between wanting to save the M and wanting to end it for about a week. I have completely stopped snooping, removed the keylogger from my W's computer, and came clean about the fact that I had done that. So, everything feels clean for me know. I have my own integrity and I feel good about myself. I have done everything I could to save my M and I can let go knowing that.

The last conversation that I had with my W about the R was 3 days ago. In that conversation, she reiterated that she had decided it was over. However, she said that it was really hard for her and that she did still have her moments of doubt, and that she was finding it really hard to let go of me, our life together, the emotional shelter that our M provided from the big scary world out there. She felt deep regret for her poor choices and wished that she could turn back time. However, the pain of flip flopping has been too much for her, and so her decision that "it's over" brings certainty and escape from that pain which feels welcome. She is glad to feel that things are moving and changing now, that we can get on with the next chapter of our lives, apart from each other.

We have agreed to take things slow, and if/when we actually get around to filing for D, we want to do it with mutual good will, using a mediator instead of separate lawyers. We are both thankful that we at least have this, the gift of good will. During that conversation 3 days ago, we started to talk about what separation/D would look like. How we would split custody, how we would deal with summers when our son is off school. We talked about little details like the fact that I would keep the piano... but how my W could buy a compact keyboard so that our son could practice while he is staying at her place too. Talking through these details is making the reality of D much clearer. It is very, very sad and we both have a lot of regret that is coming to this. She admitted that she never really thought through all of this when she made those poor decisions to start the A's in the first place. I pointed out that I regret that we haven't really tried everything yet. I had hoped that she would stick to NC with the OM so that we had a fighting chance to save our M, but since she chose not to, here we are. She admitted that she has the same regret, and part of her does want to consider the remote possibility of a miracle, but then she immediately flips back to the finality of her decision that "it's over", which has given her a sense of comfort and escape from the hell of flipping back and forth that has been the limbo we are in for the past 2 months.

After that last conversation 3 days ago, I could see how a part of me wanted to take it and hold onto it as a last thread of hope. I spent the rest of the evening talking myself away from that. Reminding myself of the reality... that it is time for me to let go. That I should not wait for a miracle... that I need to get on with my life. The one thing I will do it take it slow for as long as I can, not be the one to push for D or burn any bridges too quickly. I succeeded in talking myself away from flipping back to hope, and I have spend the past two days really moving into the space of accepting that it's over. It has been really lonely and painful. I do feel a greater sense of peace, but I am very far from feeling happy and strong as a single person. I have a long road ahead of me before I could truly be ready for another R with someone else. Yes, I am a good man and have been a very good H. Someday I will be ready to share that with the right person. However, right now I look down this long, lonely road with much resistance and grief. I am not looking forward to it. If there are wonderful surprises awaiting me around the corner, I don't see them yet, and I have a hard time trusting that they are there. I pray that it can be easier that I expect it to be. I don't want to be depressed again like I was 10-12 years ago. I really don't want to go back there.

[JGuy]

My first question for you all on my new thread, is how to deal with situations where my W comes back to me seeking affection, closeness, and support?

We are still living in the same house at this stage, although we are considering ourselves in a "trial separation". This morning I woke up alone and sad, processing my feelings and trying to comfort myself as best I could. I cried a bit, thought some more, cried some more. I tried to assure myself that everything would be OK, despite not really feeling that way at all.

Suddenly, I felt my W's hand on my shoulder. She had quietly come in to the bedroom and I didn't hear her enter. She said "I woke up feeling very sad too". She laid down beside me, put her forehead against my cheek. I cried for a moment longer, then stopped as I breathed deeply and focused on continuing to let go and resist the urge to slip back into hoping that her act of coming to me like this was a sign that things weren't over yet after all. It was very confusing for me, and I didn't know what to say. All I ended up saying was "this is very hard for me". She said "me too". We were silent lying there for 5 minutes before she got up and went about starting her day.

I didn't really know what to make of it. I think I did a good job of holding to my commitment to detach, but I'm uncertain of what the best way is to handle these situations. I'm pretty sure it will happen again in the days ahead. Any advice?

[Azzork]

I have done everything I could to save my M and I can let go knowing that.

Every day that passes with you not doing/saying anything is a day that you have done something to help save your marriage.

Your work is not finished yet.

[JGuy]

My first question for you all on my new thread, is how to deal with situations where my W comes back to me seeking affection, closeness, and support?

We are still living in the same house at this stage, although we are considering ourselves in a "trial separation". This morning I woke up alone and sad, processing my feelings and trying to comfort myself as best I could. I cried a bit, thought some more, cried some more. I tried to assure myself that everything would be OK, despite not really feeling that way at all.

Suddenly, I felt my W's hand on my shoulder. She had quietly come in to the bedroom and I didn't hear her enter. She said "I woke up feeling very sad too". She laid down beside me, put her forehead against my cheek. I cried for a moment longer, then stopped as I breathed deeply and focused on continuing to let go and resist the urge to slip back into hoping that her act of coming to me like this was a sign that things weren't over yet after all. It was very confusing for me, and I didn't know what to say. All I ended up saying was "this is very hard for me". She said "me too". We were silent lying there for 5 minutes before she got up and went about starting her day.

I didn't really know what to make of it. I think I did a good job of holding to my commitment to detach, but I'm uncertain of what the best way is to handle these situations. I'm pretty sure it will happen again in the days ahead. Any advice?

Does anyone have advice on this? I continue to feel uncertain about how to respond and my W continues to reach out toward me, as I have now been firmly in detachment mode. Yesterday after she came to me in the morning, she texted me during the day to ask how I was doing. I just responded "I'm coping as best I can.". Later on, she asked me if I wanted to join her with my S7 for dinner after his ballet lesson. I did, but there was no R talk. I am finally doing a good job of holding to this. However, I am uncertain about how to respond to her when she makes attempts to connect to me. I am tempted to ask her what her intention is behind these attempts to connect, but thus far I have bitten my lip. I just try to be kind, not too cold or distant, but keep my responses brief. I can tell that she is feeling the distance and is really noticing my behavior change. If I was to guess what her intention is, I would have to guess that she is missing me, missing the platonic closeness that she didn't want to lose in deciding that it's over. I think she wants to keep the good parts of our R and remain "friends" to each other through this transition. I am confused because I want that too, but I am still struggling with detachment and my better senses tell me that if I'm serious about this detachment thing, I really do need more space from her.

[trumpet]

Sounds like temperature checking to me.

tugging on the rope, checking you're still attached to her. If she has OCD, she is dependent upon you, as you are a foundational post to come back to.

Sandi, Cadet, and others can probably be definitive on this. Just trying to help, as it looks like you didn't get a response.

Detaching for me started a few weeks ago, but every time I fail, and I recommit, and I'm able to realize that true detachment is walking away and never looking over your shoulder, and never expecting the person to grab onto your shoulder and turn you around. If you have an expectation of them coming back (and they do, Sandi is very right!), you'll never gain the achievement of having contentment in your own skin and life.

You need her, and she needs you. What would happen if you DIDN'T need her?
What if you wanted to be with her, but didn't NEED to be with her?

Those are the thoughts I'm working through in my sitch. In the last 24 hours, I think I'm getting close to not caring if she grabs my arm as I walk away. I still won't burn the bridge, and love might find us down the road, but I have work to do. My kids need me, and I need to watch the snow.


Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
By Robert Frost
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

[JGuy]

Thanks for that perspective, trumpet. It would be nice to not need her. I'm headed in that direction... I have continued to hold to no R talks, no pursuing. Things feel empty and dark in the house, not much communication happening at all, other than mundane stuff to coordinate our plans, etc.

Tomorrow, we are scheduled for a MC appointment. I feel uncertain about what, if anything I should say. It's not in my nature to be dishonest or manipulative at all, and it seems silly to be dark in a MC session, like a waste of money. I'm inclined to just be honest and say something along these lines:

I am in the process of letting go and taking space, trying to find the parts of me that I somehow lost along the way. I recognize that my W is not in a place herself where it would be safe or self-loving for me to continue holding on, and so I have decided to let go. I love her, I love our family, and although I want to do everything I can to save our M, I have come to realize that there's only so much I can do if she does not want the same thing. For that reason, out of respect for myself and for her, I am stepping away to reflect on myself, my life, and where I want to go from here.

There is more that I could say about what I would need in order to feel safe enough to step back toward her, should she decide that she had changed her mind that "it's over", but I definitely wouldn't want to say any of that unless she first indicated that she had in fact changed her mind. But what if she does? What if tomorrow at MC she communicates that she isn't feeling certain anymore that it's over? I'd like to be prepared with what I would say if that happened. I think the truth is that I wouldn't be ready to jump back in. Now that I have started letting go, I can see that I have a lot more letting go, healing, and finding myself that I need to do to feel strong in my sense of self enough that I could be ready to either A) rebuild a new R with my W, or B) seek a new R with someone else. A part of me still wants to jump right back into hoping that the M can be saved, but I recognize now how I was inappropriately bonded to her against my own best interest given the circumstances. To go back to that state now would be self abandonment.

I can say all of this now, but I'm nervous because I don't know if I 100% trust myself to hold to this tomorrow at the MC session.

[Zues126]

What would you do if the next door neighbor's wife came over and started acting that way?

You crying and cuddling is extremely attached, needy, and pursuing (yes, you are taking as much as she'll let you).

If it was me I would've responded to "I was feeling sad today" with "It can be that way at times" and left.

But you already went wrong by sobbing like a baby in front of her. You say you didn't know she came in, but she did...so...You're a man, you're accountable. The same way you clear your browser history so she doesn't see this site, cover your damn tracks bro.

So enough pursuing, crying around the house, and clinging to her when she throws you crumbs. It's hard, but this crap is pouring gas on the fire of her addition. Forget about you for a moment...step up and give her some tough love for HER. If you really love her then step up and do your part to allow her to experience the consequences of her choices. You're enabling her addiction and the destruction is now on your hands too.

I always say how can you expect WAW to overcome her dependence on OM if you can't overcome your dependence on her? ACT WITH THE CHARACTER YOU WISH SHE HAD.

[Azzork]

Seriously?

"I'm coping as best I can"?

I thought you are trying to BUILD attraction?

[JGuy]

Warning: Uncensored JGuy responding.

Wow, Azzork and Zeus... you guys sure are tough on me and it hurts. I feel like I'm getting somewhere but whether you realize it or not, your words are having the effect of pushing me down, telling me that it's not enough, undermining any small amount of confidence that I have started to build. It is very discouraging. You are losing me here and I really don't feel supported when you take this hard approach on me. It feels like you don't understand me and it reinforces my impression that this world is a cold, prickly place where I am not emotionally safe.

You are suggesting that I do and say things which would require acting and being untrue to myself. At times I did experiment with this approach, but it felt very wrong to put on a distant, composed front toward my W as though I was strong and had it all together. I don't. This whole experience has made me more raw and vulnerable than I have felt in as long as I can remember. I am not a baby, but there is a baby in me that is seriously hurting from birth trauma which I never healed from and which my W's betrayal has re-triggered big time. It is like being abandoned all over again by the one person whom I trusted the most to be a safe haven in this scary world. I get the impression that you have no idea what I'm going through in this regard. It is like a double whammy. The betrayal of being cheated on plus on top of that, being thrown face first back into the extremely vulnerable feelings of abandonment that were my first moments in this world.

I couldn't care less about being attractive right now. All I have is a hope that my attractiveness will come back in time, with healing myself. To heal, I need to care for that part of myself that is the baby who never received the nurturing I needed from my mother at birth. That part of me was bonded to my W inappropriately and that was my codependent coping mechanism. I am working on this with the help of IC but it is really, really difficult. Please understand that you have absolutely no idea... My journey is not one of "manning up" but of becoming very sensitive and loving to my own "inner baby" and learning how to nurture that part of myself so that he can finally heal and won't need to seek it from a woman anymore. Being ashamed of that part of myself and denying it by trying to man up is exactly what got me into this mess. This stupid culture that we live in does not value men who cry, who are sensitive. This culture can go screw itself. I am what I am.

I am celebrating my small steps, with or without you guys. I am snapping out of any illusion I was in before that my W is remotely capable of being an emotionally safe person for me to bond with. So what I can do, and which I have been doing, finally, is containing myself around her and taking back the responsibility of nurturing myself. This is my form of letting go and detaching, and for me, it is good enough.

For the record, I was already crying at the time my W walked in and surprised me. I stopped within 10 seconds. I didn't cuddle her... she came close to me, but I just laid there and didn't say anything other than "this is really hard for me". That was a big improvement for me over how I would have responded only a couple of days earlier... previously I would have gone on crying, cuddling her back, and talking endlessly, seeking nurturing from her. So although it may not look that way to you, it was a big improvement for me.

[Zues126]

Wow, Azzork and Zeus... you guys sure are tough on me and it hurts. I feel like I'm getting somewhere but whether you realize it or not, your words are having the effect of pushing me down, telling me that it's not enough, undermining any small amount of confidence that I have started to build. It is very discouraging. You are losing me here and I really don't feel supported when you take this hard approach on me. It feels like you don't understand me and it reinforces my impression that this world is a cold, prickly place where I am not emotionally safe.

When I was a sales manager I heard this all the time from my team. "I'm not motivated this way" and "This is just sapping morale and making me want to do less". The fact is that 95% of the folks that worked for me found me to be nothing less than the best supervisor, coach, mentor, and leader they ever had. Funny, somehow it was the ones that struggled to perform that had a problem with my management style.

Go back and read my last 20 posts and read what the rest of the crew thinks about me. If you get the impression that I'm spending 2 hours a day on the DB forums for the last 18 months for any reason other than it's been the hardest and most hurtful and disillusioning chapter of my life, and that I am on a hellbent mission to do my part to fight this cultural breakdown, I just don't know what to say.

In turn, I don't appreciate the injured/hurt act. It feels controlling, like 'tell me what I want to hear or I will be hurt'. Were you depressed in your marriage? Did you act hurt and depressed to try to control her behavior?

You are suggesting that I do and say things which would require acting and being untrue to myself. At times I did experiment with this approach, but it felt very wrong to put on a distant, composed front toward my W as though I was strong and had it all together. I don't. This whole experience has made me more raw and vulnerable than I have felt in as long as I can remember.

If you read DR and the many stickies and links from Cadet it is very clear that DB isn't about following your feelings. It is about being strong enough to rise above your feelings and do what the situation demands.

Feelings are a horrible compass. WAS's file divorce because they follow their feelings. Despite all the pain caused to you by following feelings, you now want to use this to justify ineffective behavior?

I am not a baby, but there is a baby in me that is seriously hurting from birth trauma which I never healed from and which my W's betrayal has re-triggered big time. It is like being abandoned all over again by the one person whom I trusted the most to be a safe haven in this scary world. I get the impression that you have no idea what I'm going through in this regard. It is like a double whammy. The betrayal of being cheated on plus on top of that, being thrown face first back into the extremely vulnerable feelings of abandonment that were my first moments in this world.

Or, it could be that I understand exactly which is why I'm taking the time to post on your thread. See link below. It's long, but I wanted to give you the original version in which I was becoming aware of my self-abandonment, and how my spouse's leaving was even harder because I had outsourced my own self care.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...861#Post2471861

This stupid culture that we live in does not value men who cry, who are sensitive.

This has nothing to do with not crying. It has to do with setting emotional boundaries. For your good. And for hers.

For the record, I was already crying at the time my W walked in and surprised me. I stopped within 10 seconds. I didn't cuddle her... she came close to me, but I just laid there and didn't say anything other than "this is really hard for me". That was a big improvement for me over how I would have responded only a couple of days earlier... previously I would have gone on crying, cuddling her back, and talking endlessly, seeking nurturing from her. So although it may not look that way to you, it was a big improvement for me.

My first question for you all on my new thread, is how to deal with situations where my W comes back to me seeking affection, closeness, and support?

Does anyone have advice on this?

You started two posts asking for advice on how to deal with this. Now you're saying you handled it all the best possible way you could. Look, I get that you did your best for the moment you were in, and there are reasons it turned out how it did. I am focused on how you can become someone that can handle it better.

I am celebrating my small steps, with or without you guys.

And I am celebrating those steps of yours as well, with or without your knowledge.

J, My mantra for years was to act as if the person you were talking to was on their way home to kill themselves- would your interaction talk them off the ledge without you knowing it? You can read my posts surrounding that link and see that we're a very similar species. That said, there is a time when we have to rise above our feelings, and that is a big part of DB. My goal is to inspire you and challenge you to find strength you didn't know you had to do just that.

Regardless, if you're anything like me the vulnerability and sensitivity you've shown is there to take the edge off a super powerful juggernaut that will achieve all the goals within your sights. Now that you've set your goals on becoming independent and self sufficient I know you'll do it.