I have very little experience with clinical depression, either in myself or those I know well, although what I'm battling in myself now feels like it could be. For myself, I think it's probably just a normal reaction to an ongoing bad situation. If my M improved, poof, the depression would be gone. So while I have been living depressed for a long time, I doubt it meets the standard of clinical depression (whatever that is).
In my W's case, though, I just don't know. At 1st, back in Feb, I thought the problem was a MLC. Later, of course, I found out about the A, but the MLC explanation still seemed to ring true in many ways. So now there's this depression, which just confuses things more. I don't know if the depression predated everything else, or followed later, when she found herself mired in what probably seemed (seems?) like a hopeless situation, with a Sophie's choice.
About the only personal experience I've had with this issue related to my sister. I recently found out that she went on Zoloft about 5 years ago related to all of the medical problems her premature twin sons had. She's never stopped taking the drug, though, and that seems wrong somehow. I don't know all the details, though, and she (understandably) doesn't discuss it much.
I don't know if I should suggest that my W see a shrink about her depression. Once upon a time (maybe in March) she told me that while she would not be open to seeing a MC, she might be willing to see a shrink to discuss her own "issues". I'm concerned that my W might think I'm just going for the quick fix, though (i.e., in a selfish way, as if getting her medicated will solve all of our R problems).
Actually, my W told me last night that she had had a dream yesterday morning (in the last hour of sleep between the time I kissed her goodbye and when she had to get up herself) that she seen her grandmother (who died about 2 years ago) and her mother (with whom she is currently estranged). In the dream, their appearance was as it was 20 or 25 years ago, and she was able to hug them and enjoy the moment with them. She said that she had felt happier all day long as a result of this dream (whatever works, I guess!). I doubt if those good feelings will last long, but it did seem significant that her feelings were so closely related to her mother and grandmother.
I'm taking tomorrow off for our "anniversery", and I want the day to go well. So, I'll avoid R talk and try not to have many expectations regarding how she acts toward me and what she writes in her card. Before all this latest crap I was looking forward to this day and thinking it would be very happy, as we basked in our re-found love for each other. My expectations are much lower now. Now all I can hope for is that it's a good day and a nice date.
Quoting eskb: Actually, my W told me last night that she had had a dream yesterday morning (in the last hour of sleep between the time I kissed her goodbye and when she had to get up herself) that she seen her grandmother (who died about 2 years ago) and her mother (with whom she is currently estranged). In the dream, their appearance was as it was 20 or 25 years ago, and she was able to hug them and enjoy the moment with them. She said that she had felt happier all day long as a result of this dream (whatever works, I guess!). I doubt if those good feelings will last long, but it did seem significant that her feelings were so closely related to her mother and grandmother.
Brian -- not to drive you into ASSumption mode...but you mentioned that w's son chose not to live with her and now you mention that she is currently estranged from her mother...seems to me (a BIG ASSumption) that perhaps w is questioning/bemoaning/feeling sadness about not having some pretty primary connections...I would definitely continue depersonalizing w's feeling of not being loved...
Sage
PS Good luck with the anniversary. Can you revel in gratitude for the time you have had together?
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
You're thinking of clinical depression in terms of needing a "shrink". The common practice now is to be diagnosed and treated by one's primary physician.
Clinical depression may effect mental and emotional states, but it is caused by a PHYSICAL BIOCHEMICAL imbalance and also effects everything from appitite, sleep, energy level, sex drive, and even the ability to dream.
Please learn about it so you can help your W, or at least understand the ailment.
Several of the chemicals that the brain uses to communicate between brain cells are: Serotonin, Norepinephrine and Dopamine. Some people don't produce enough of those brain chemicals (often because they inherited that hardwiring from some ancestor). THAT is the primary cause of clinical depression. Some people have one or two episodes in their lifetime of a period of deep depression. Many, like most of my family, have a constant low level of those brain chemicals--low level depression. When major life stresses come along, it can lead to deep clinical depression. That may be the case with your sister. For people who don't produce adequate amounts of say, Serotonin, having anti-depresants like Zoloft make the differnce between having and not having quality of life.
Again, I strongly encourage you to educate yourself about the condition. There may have been many more things you have been taking personally that are mostly symptoms of depression.
As for your wife--no excuses for going outside of her marraige--but you have no idea how excrutiatingly painful clinical depression can be. Many people who have had at least one major episode of it describe that they would, literally, rather die than be in that bottomless dark abyss ever again.
As you learn more about it, you will be able to give your wife the info too.
though it may be helpful to be aware of possible diagnosis for your w...be careful not to get to caught up in diagnosing her yourself...what you see and hear from her could be totally normal beh for whatever she's going through and not at all connected to any "illness" or deprivation of anything. doing so could be thrown back in your face much the same way it get's thrown in mens faces when they excuse certain behaviors dubbing it pms.
Tal's got her facts right Bri, and LL makes a good point too.
The critera for clinical depression are, perhaps surprising to some, not all that severe...for example they need only persist for two weeks!
But they do include depressed mood, problems eating, sleeping, sexual, concentration problems, hopelessness, lack of joy in the good things in life, perhaps suicidal thoughts...
Depression can be low grade and chronic, periodically flaring up, or it can be triggered by life stressors. I'm thinking of you here too.
About your W mourning the estranged R's in her life...another vote for depersonalizing it. I had a phone conversation with a friend of mine, we're not all that close but she's shared health and stress woes with me before.
She began crying on the phone (not at all usual for her, she's usually more of a shallow...look at my new stuff!, type of person). She'd yelled at her two sons (in their 30's) and neither of them are speaking with her. Her mother and she are estranged. Friends had stopped dropping by (she's a bit of a guilt tripper about things which drives folks away)...the point I'm TRYING to make is that she sobbed "I have NO ONE!!!"....and then I pointed out to her that she has her H! This guy worships the ground she walks on. Works full time (she takes care of the house) does all the shopping, buys her clothes for her, writes up little treasure hunt notes for her on her birthdays and Valentine's day, nursed her through kidney surgery...and STILL caught up in her grief, she said she had "No One"...
Happy anniversary, I hope it exceeds your lowered expectations!
I've started to educate myself on depression. I've found lots of little tests you can give yourself (I meet the definition of "moderately" clinically depressed myself, if the tests are to be believed). What I haven't found yet is if there is a distintion made between depression brought on by specific circumstances (e.g., death of a loved one, marriage in trouble, etc) and depression brought on by chemical imbalance. It appears that both types are treated medically. My own depression (I have a hard time thinking of myself as "clinically") would be of the 1st type, but maybe my W's is more of the 2nd type.
LL is right, though. I need to be able to approach her about this without being accusing, and without making it seem like I'm trying to excuse myself - blaming all of our problems on her mental state.
I do realize that I need to depersonalize this. It's hard, though. She feels a void in her life and the OG was seemingly able to fill it, at least temporarily.
BUT... I arrived home Thursday evening. As we were making dinner, my W said, "I want to show you what I've been looking at on the internet today. You're going to be surprised". So, after dinner, we went to the computer together, and she showed me that she had been looking at adoption sites.
A little background: After S7 and S6 were born, we thought about having one more, to maybe get a girl. She has a daughter and son from her 1st marriage, but, given my druthers, I'd have liked to have a girl of my own. Ultimately, for many reasons, we decided not to. But every once in awhile, I would mention something about it, and we'd again briefly discuss it and decide against it. In the last few years, we hadn't discussed it again, and I thought the matter was closed.
My W told me that she feels this void in her life could be filled by adopting a child, perhaps a 2 or 3 year old girl. I was a little stunned, but a little excited, not just because of the idea of having a little girl, but also because of what it means - obviously, adopting would mean a real commitment to the family, to staying together. It also means that my W is possibly recognizing that she is not so much in love with the OG, as much as she simply needs to have this significant void in her life filled.
We spent several hour looking online at photos of varioius children and gathering information. I want to go slowly on this. I'm not at all sure that this is what we should do, and it certainly wouldn't be fair to adopt a child if our M is still shaky.
The next morning (the anniversery of our 1st date and engagement) we took the kids to school and went out to a nice breakfast and continued to talk about the adoption thing. After doing some shopping, we went home, and took a "nap" Later, we went to see Matchstick Men and then went out to a great Italian place for dinner. There was a long wait so we spent an hour in the bar. My W started talking about how she would like to finish her degree (she's an RN now, but she's about a year and a half away from her BS Nursing degree), and possibly even go on for a Nurse Practitioners degree. After that, she said, "well, I either need to adopt, get my degree, or leave you". It was a joke, and we both laughed, but there's a grain of truth there. She's feeling this void, and needs to find a satisfying way to fill it.
She also told me more about her parents' divorce. About how her father, who traveled a lot, had maintained an A for years with a married woman in another state. But, interestingly, how she blamed her mother more for the divorce, because of how "she was such a bi***" to her dad, and because of how badly she had treated my W after the D. She didn't exactly give her dad a free pass for the A, but she thinks he was driven to it (much like she thinks I drove her to hers).
Overall, though, it was a very good day. Lots of affection, lots of laughing, and lots of serious talking (but avoiding directly talking about our R). At bedtime, we exchanged cards. Mine to her was a "I'm going to love you forever" kind of card. Hers to me was more of a "I have faith that we're going to get through this together" sort. It was less than I would have hoped for a few weeks ago, but it had a hopeful tone, and it was appropriate, given where we are today. All in all, I would have to say that the day more than met my lowered expectations.
I'd be VERY careful about the adoption thing...taking in a child to "fill a void" is about the worst motivation for parenting I can think of.
Now I'm NOT a parent, so perhaps some of the others will have a different view.
It still seems to be a search "out there" for the wholeness your W needs to find within herself. But for the time being it can be a fun "possibility" to explore.
I know I wasn't there to hear the tones and all, but her comment of "either I need to adopt, get my degree or leave you" struck me as really insensitive!
Again, it's looking for something outside to "fix" her. Perhaps as she explores her own psyche, or gets to counselling etc, this issue will be delved into. I think it's essential.
But you're right about one thing...It's not so much the OG per se...it's this sense of "lacking" in your W that is the issue.
Take care, Bri
Shiny
P.S. Yes both reactive and more chronic depressions are treated the same way.
Glad to hear things went well for the anniversary. My W and I celebrated ours with friends about a week ago.
I know it's hard to continue to have the ups and downs you're experiencing, but hang in there. Try not to overinterpret your W's comments - focus more on her actions. You did a great job DBing to keep your W from walking, now think about what goals you still have and how you will move toward achieving them.
Keep doing a reality check - you cannot control your W's happiness. You are not soley responsible for her happiness. You are only responsible for your half of the M, and you are doing great. If she's depressed, then it's her responsibility to seek help for it or not.
I'd like to reinforce a comment made previously - do not diagnose her depression yourself. Also, do not accept the diagnoses offered on this BB for her or any member of your family. Leave that to a professional who actually sees and talks to the person in question. I say that as a doctoral level research psychologist and professor of psychiatry. Even though I know I possess those credentials, you have no way of knowing whether I'm legitimate or not. Be very wary of what you read on this or any other BB. Although some of the information posted on mental illness on your thread is valid, some misinformation has also been given.
At any rate, your W's mood and past may help explain her behavior, but it doesn't excuse it. Nor does it help you get closer to your goals. Tell us what you are doing in terms of formulating action oriented goals for each of the recommittment issues you identified in the beginning of this thread:
Quote: How to trust that the A is truly over, and that she isn't contacting him anymore. How to trust ANYTHING she says. How to know that she won't ever do this again. How to get past thoughts of the OG, especially in regards to sex. That she doesn't seem truly sorry for the A. That she still basically blames me for causing her A. How to make her comfortable enough to have R talks. How to get her to open up about what she really wants from me. How to get her to realize and respond to the fact that just as there are/were changes that she needed me to make, there are changes that she needs to make for me. How to get her to take some responsibility for understanding the A and for learning how to go forward from here (e.g., going to a MC, doing some reading, etc). How to have an argument or disagreement without fearing that it will push her back to the OG. How to regain my self-respect. How to regain my respect for her.
Later, we went to see Matchstick Men and then went out to a great Italian place for dinner. There was a long wait so we spent an hour in the bar. My W started talking about how she would like to finish her degree (she's an RN now, but she's about a year and a half away from her BS Nursing degree), and possibly even go on for a Nurse Practitioners degree. After that, she said, "well, I either need to adopt, get my degree, or leave you". It was a joke, and we both laughed, but there's a grain of truth there. She's feeling this void, and needs to find a satisfying way to fill it.
