I'm in a low-sex (a dozen encounters per year) marriage (for 8 years) and I wish it would become a no-sex marriage. And I'm the high sex drive spouse! The sex we do have gives me so much tension and sorrow that I know I would be much better off with none. I'm in my early 40's, and VERY good at controlling my urges.
Wrote this letter to my W tonight... don't worry, I will NOT send it.
W;
i often say things like "if i share my thoughts, you'll like me less" etc. i'll never send this note but i wanted to write it anyway.
i could never say this stuff so i just let everything get worse and worse.
it's sunday night. we had sex saturday morning.
i wish we could just stop.
it happens so seldom, and when it does, it makes me feel so badly, that i think i (maybe you?) would be better off without it.
random reasons that i think we should stop:
- you've said over and over that you appreciate that I am "considerate" and "not demanding" sexually so I assume you know that i masturbate almost every day to keep from becoming "inconsiderate". i hate that, it makes me feel like a dismal failure but as far as orgasms go they are good-to-great. therefore, anytime you initiate sex i've usually came a few hours before and i worry that i won't be able to perform.
- it is sex like i imagine 90 year old people would have sex. you will never lift your shoulders from the bed, EVERYTHING must be done flat on your back, from start to finish. sometimes you will be reaching or stretching like "Oh can i possibly reach my hand over to stimulate him, i wish my arm were longer, there is no possible solution because i would not dream of sitting up or moving". my theory is that you feel fatter sitting up, etc., and less fat lying on your back.
- 90% of the time you have your orgasm from my oral stimulation. at that point you more or less check out mentally. but when i want to end the session after your orgasm, you get upset because i didn't have one. don't worry, i'll take mine "to go".
- i never initiate because even with our very, very low frequency, when i initiate i have a pretty high rejection rate. i sort of feel like when it's been 3-6 weeks rejection should be unlikely. and the rejection usually is (or seems?) very sharp. i'd rather not risk it so i don't initiate anymore.
- weight... actually bothers you more than me i think. it seems there is a larger % of your body "off limits" to touch because you are unhappy with it (perceived off limits to me based on your reaction to my touch). i start to just not touch anywhere, rather than risk touching an area that you feel is unattractive. it has gotten to the point where i don't want to see your body, it just makes me sad to see how you've let it go.
- speed... i mess this up everytime. i had always thought that it was good for a man to last. however, i realize you are mainly only having intercourse for me so faster is better. if i would just start and go for the orgasm i could get there very quickly. however because that is not enjoyable for me i always go slow at first until i am able to continue with no risk of quick orgasm. problem then is that it takes me FOREVER to come, no matter what. i run 1,000 fantasies through my head in quick succession trying to find SOMETHING that will make me come faster. that emotion you hear from me when i come is genuine relief, thank God it's over.
i am perfectly content to just let it all go. i feel horrified when you start to initiate, knowing how it will go.
but reading this would make you terribly angry with yourself or with me so i won't send it.
"If I share my thoughts you will like me less?" Where does that notion come from? What drives that belief? How do you have a more fulfilling sexual relationship or any other kind of a relationship with someone you fear sharing your thoughts with? Is that fear based in something she has done to you or is it based in your belief that your thoughts aren't worthy of being shared?
I read your post and came away wanting to ask a 101 questions. I became so interested I found your thread on newcomers and read it. It's my belief that you set yourself up for failure in your relationship with your wife because you don't feel yourself worthy of a true emotional connection with anyone and more than likely have stuffed any feelings of intimacy for anyone for so long that you have forgotten how to feel or go about getting what you need from your wife.
We can only stuff feelings for so long though. Our needs eventually come to the surface and I believe that is what has happened with you. Now that they have come to the surface, now that you have decided to feel, instead of work toward maintaining the "deal" you made with your wife what have you done? You have gone out and gotten yourself emotionally attached and in the middle of a situation that is unattainable. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy maybe? Deep down you don't believe yourself worthy of love, fear being rejected if you do openly love someone so you set yourself up for failure once again by finally feeling for and accepting love from someone you can't have.
This high school sweetheart that you fell in love with and never let go..why do you suppose you have held on to those feelings for all these years? Could it be, that if you hold on to the love you felt for her you wouldn't have to feel it for anyone else? If you don't feel it for anyone else then you don't have to run the risk of being hurt by it or rejected by another person? Why do you have such feelings of love for someone who cared so little at the time that she wasn't willing to put you and your need for an education before her desire to marry and have children?
You say in this letter to your wife that you would rather not risk her rejection of you when you try and initiate sex so you just don't initiate. Maybe that is the running theme through out every aspect of your life...as far as it relates to emotional involvment with a woman anyway. It's easier not to feel and not to connect than it is to suffer some of the pain that comes along with loving someone.
When you talk about "speed" and how you run a thousand fantasies through your brain so that you will be able to end the session faster I have to wonder if this isn't the same as giving her more time away, working hard to make sure she is kept satisfied and keeping your end of the bargain up. Work, work, work to make sure that things stay as they are, that she is not made to feel any discomfort so that you don't have to face the fact that you have needs that aren't being met and you might possibly have to step outside your realm of comfort to make sure they get met.
Why do you feel perfectly content to just let it all go? Why do you feel it's better to let it all go to keep from having to make your wife angry? Is avoiding her negative reaction to the fact that you have certain needs....not only in the bedroom but in every other aspect of the marriage...more important than actually making sure that your needs are met?
Whats going on here? Is it that you finally want to connect with someone emotionally and you are finding it easier to do with the old girlfriend that with your wife because the old girlfriend is giving it freely. You might have to negotiate your needs with your wife and you seem to shy away....hell, you seem to run for cover when it comes to negotiating your needs.
I think you long for a connection with your wife. If not, the fact that your sexual relationship with her is less than satisfactory and seems very painful would not bother you at all. I think you long for it but don't trust yourself to get it, don't feel worthy of it and have no idea in hell how to go about getting it.
You said in your other thread that all you wanted was to hold up your end of the deal you made with your wife. Well, if you are in business you know that business deals change and have to be re-negotiated at times. That doesn't mean the company falls apart. It just means putting your negotiation skills to work and hammering out a solution that suites all involved. I think finding a solution to the problems you are experiencing will only come after you learn to stop being passive, stop getting your needs met in ways that will allow you to continue to be passive and to learn that communicating and dealing with the anger that comes from communication is nothing to fear. Fear, passivity and apathy...it's a killer! Cathy~
I think that cathy has pretty much hit the nail on the head with her post.
what do you think?
read her post again and again...answer her questions.
I could go on and on and give you all kinds of examples and stories to illistrate the point to you but that would be no fun...you've got to come to the realizations yourself.
First, thanks for a very thoughtful reply. I have read it several times. May I say... you're smart. You didn't just get the obvious stuff right, you also got the subtle stuff.
OK... if you can bear with me... I think I'll just dump your post in here and start replying in bold...
"If I share my thoughts you will like me less?" Where does that notion come from? What drives that belief? How do you have a more fulfilling sexual relationship or any other kind of a relationship with someone you fear sharing your thoughts with? Is that fear based in something she has done to you or is it based in your belief that your thoughts aren't worthy of being shared?
Pretty much any time I make the mistake of saying what I think the situation gets a lot worse really quickly, for a long time.
I read your post and came away wanting to ask a 101 questions. I became so interested I found your thread on newcomers and read it. It's my belief that you set yourself up for failure in your relationship with your wife because you don't feel yourself worthy of a true emotional connection with anyone and more than likely have stuffed any feelings of intimacy for anyone for so long that you have forgotten how to feel or go about getting what you need from your wife.
We can only stuff feelings for so long though. Our needs eventually come to the surface and I believe that is what has happened with you. Now that they have come to the surface, now that you have decided to feel, instead of work toward maintaining the "deal" you made with your wife what have you done? You have gone out and gotten yourself emotionally attached and in the middle of a situation that is unattainable.
It's a small point but crucial to me... I didn't go anywhere. I stayed. I knew how to find Sheila and never did. I did not want to disturb her life. I wanted to keep my deal. I went nowhere... and one day, there she was. GRANTED, I knew what would happen if I talked to her and didn't resist, but I want 1/4 point for NOT initiating. As if we are keeping score!
Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy maybe? Deep down you don't believe yourself worthy of love, fear being rejected if you do openly love someone so you set yourself up for failure once again by finally feeling for and accepting love from someone you can't have.
This high school sweetheart that you fell in love with and never let go..why do you suppose you have held on to those feelings for all these years?
Simply because they were the best feelings I'd ever had, beyond anything I'd experienced before or since, beyond anything I could imagine.
Could it be, that if you hold on to the love you felt for her you wouldn't have to feel it for anyone else? If you don't feel it for anyone else then you don't have to run the risk of being hurt by it or rejected by another person? Why do you have such feelings of love for someone who cared so little at the time that she wasn't willing to put you and your need for an education before her desire to marry and have children?
You say in this letter to your wife that you would rather not risk her rejection of you when you try and initiate sex so you just don't initiate. Maybe that is the running theme through out every aspect of your life...as far as it relates to emotional involvment with a woman anyway. It's easier not to feel and not to connect than it is to suffer some of the pain that comes along with loving someone.
Perhaps...
When you talk about "speed" and how you run a thousand fantasies through your brain so that you will be able to end the session faster I have to wonder if this isn't the same as giving her more time away, working hard to make sure she is kept satisfied and keeping your end of the bargain up. Work, work, work to make sure that things stay as they are, that she is not made to feel any discomfort so that you don't have to face the fact that you have needs that aren't being met and you might possibly have to step outside your realm of comfort to make sure they get met.
Why do you feel perfectly content to just let it all go? Why do you feel it's better to let it all go to keep from having to make your wife angry?
Is avoiding her negative reaction to the fact that you have certain needs....not only in the bedroom but in every other aspect of the marriage...more important than actually making sure that your needs are met?
YES. Emphatically, YES. If I have an unmet need, that's a nuisance. It's dismissable. If I'm horny I'll buy a new guitar. If I'm lonely I'll watch a great movie. If I'm afraid I'll read a great book. The need passes. It's far better than puting water on a hornet and having real trouble in the home. I was raised in a combat zone, I'd rather my kids be raised in an emotional desert than live that.
Whats going on here? Is it that you finally want to connect with someone emotionally and you are finding it easier to do with the old girlfriend that with your wife because the old girlfriend is giving it freely.
Exactly, and that's why it's priceless. It's actual love not barter.
You might have to negotiate your needs with your wife and you seem to shy away....hell, you seem to run for cover when it comes to negotiating your needs.
I think you long for a connection with your wife.
Everyone seems to cruise along with a high degree of accuracy until they hit this point. I'm the world's foremost expert on me. No one has studied the subject as extensively as I have. Trust me... I do not long for any connection to my wife.
If not, the fact that your sexual relationship with her is less than satisfactory and seems very painful would not bother you at all.
The fact that it continues is the main thing that bothers me.
I think you long for it but don't trust yourself to get it, don't feel worthy of it and have no idea in hell how to go about getting it.
You said in your other thread that all you wanted was to hold up your end of the deal you made with your wife. Well, if you are in business you know that business deals change and have to be re-negotiated at times. That doesn't mean the company falls apart. It just means putting your negotiation skills to work and hammering out a solution that suites all involved. I think finding a solution to the problems you are experiencing will only come after you learn to stop being passive, stop getting your needs met in ways that will allow you to continue to be passive and to learn that communicating and dealing with the anger that comes from communication is nothing to fear.
I cannot bear to say to anyone, even her, "I made a mistake by getting involved with you". Can't do it. So honesty is out the window. Plus I feel that as a father, saying something like that is an insult to my children. So, I procede from an initial position of dishonesty. No wonder it doesn't work.
Fear, passivity and apathy...it's a killer!
Cathy~
I will read your post again I'm sure. It has been very helpful. Don't read my few rebuttals above as anything but more data points... you were still eerily accurate in your descriptions of the situation.
THIS HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED...
I know in my heart I have to loose Sheila again, right away. The first time was like dying. I never got over it, but I became moderately functional again after TEN YEARS. This time will be worse... I'll know it's for the last time, and W will be watching and prying to figure out what is going on while I just try to cope. And if she figures out why I'm mourning, then I'm toast.
(OK, this part would fit better a few paragraphs ago, but oh well).
I do think I deserve nothing (emotional, sexual, etc.) and that probably hampers my negotiations. I think that I had a chance at the brass ring and when Sheila feinted resistance I folded. I think she expected me to fight for her, but I believed all that "If you love something let it go" crap. Which confuses me further, because "it" did come back to me eventually. So I probably punish myself for not fighting for her as if my life depended on it back then. And all the coaching I get now is to just roll over and make the same mistake again.
My intention is not to coach you to roll over and get the same again. I would never do that. I want to tell you that I see you clearly because I was married to a man just like you. Parts of your response to my post broke my heart and I need a little time to process some of the things you have said.
I'm sorry that you feel unworthy and that you have found yourself in a loveless marriage. I'm sorry that the fact that you were "raised in a combat zone" has caused you to need peace at all cost. Especially the cost of you ever knowing what it means to love and be loved. You know Will, even *love* entails combat. Soulmates fight and make-up and then fight again. There isn't going to come a time when there won't be problems that have to be faced and negotiated, even in the most loving relationship.
I don't want to talk about Shiela or how it feels to be loved by her and to love her. I'm not interested in judging you or causing you to feel you have to defend your feelings for this woman. I think we need to take that out of the picture all together cause, there is something you need to understand...no matter who you are in a relationship with there are going to be times when it will feel like a "combat zone." I see that as a major issue with you and believe that no matter who you are in a relationship with you will probably let that stand in your way of having a productive relationship where everyone's needs are met.
I would like to continue to communicate with you. I do believe you need someone to talk to that has an understanding of what you are going through and I also believe that you might help me to continue to understand some of what my ex husband felt during our marriage. I would rather do it off the board though. It's the only way I can express my feelings unguarded. If you are willing to do that, my email address is tolemakr@comcast.net. If not then we can continue via the board, it's completely up to you. Cathy~
You need to take a hundered steps back, you and W need SBT couseling. If you don't fix it you will end up with a WAW, like I did. I wished I had this BB to help me. Read lostlove and tonyP threads.
Poe
PS: XW was fat and new LF is fat. Have you seen shallow Hal?
