Mirror Mirror on the wall....

[CaliGuy]

Time for a new thread .... last one for those keeping score had an amazing exchange on forgiveness

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2565249#Post2565249

[CaliGuy]

In reply to Wonka's last post on the old thread .. bringing it here as that one will be locked soon

Hey Wonka, I have been around several marriages where the spouse wanted back in before they had worked through their stuff.

That's assuming that it was done without IC and MC??

When they went to MC, the therapist felt that there was no way it would work and encouraged them to give up. Now some of that was because a couple of the therapists werent pro marriage.

This is what we usually talk about around here in DB. Bad MC therapist can do more harm than good. In Cali's case, I believe he is doing his due diligence when researching MCs. I do not belive this bad MC will be the case here. So we can scratch this off the list of concerns.

Some went and the spouse was still stuck in their stuff and it went badly. Another one went to be able to say they tried. Another hadnt done the work and decided it was just too hard.

Again, I sense that it was something we usually talk about in DB when there's a WAS...not a MLcer. I do think the differences between a simple WAS and MLCer impacts how one approaches MC.

So, I feel strongly that they both need to be of similar mindset in terms of where they are in wanting to save their marriage and that the MLCer has made some strides in doing the work.

I have a bit of a problem with this section right there. As you have read around in the MLC forum for a long time, most often one can see that the MLCer and the long-standing LBS are usually not of the similar mindset. It is as if the MLCer is catching up and looking to the LBs as the wingman to re-boot their M. You only have to see Raine and rH's threads to recognize it.

They (MCLers) usually look to the LBS for cues for unconditional love and pointing them in the right direction with loving guidance. If we qualify attending MC with this provsion that the MLCer must make "great strides" first, then it's a crapshoot because how one makes "great strides" is a subjective measurement.

I want to point out that Cali's W has been asking about MC which is highly unusual of a former MLCer just coming out of the tunnel and she's taking the initiative which is even more special. In my mind, the more Cali puts off the MC due to his ongoing unresolved fears, it will be detrimental to the new Cali M.

The mindset does not have to be similar, but the INTENT behind it is...which is trying to chart a new path forward with the expert guidance of a qualified professional versed in solution-based MC threapy. I just think that trying to do this DIY by themselves is doing the M, and the family a great disservice.

I wouldn't dream of doing my taxes without a qualified CPA, changing a gasket in the car without a mechanic, etc.

Not saying it will happen, just that it could.

Make sense?

I think this is one of the reasons this place is amazing ... angles opinions and perspective from so many different views and lucky for me I get to benefit.

Like I said earlier, the fact W wants MC is huge, however I do agree with uR on a level, gut feel here, if the MLCr really is going to use MC more as an IC is that going to work, is it fair to the M, we are not working on us if she is working on her, thats my take/fear/concern. But I also see Wonka's view that it could be completely defeating that W has repeatedly said she wants MC knowing that its a way to repair the damage done, and if I stall side step it would appear I want none of that nor the possible new M that she is offering.

So what is the answer, its not an easy one. As I mentioned I have
done my due diligence in the MC search, and 0-6, 6 good MC's, great reviews and all booked. I joked with one saying its really difficult to stay employed and get a MC who has an open schedule, seems easy to have a M that needs tons of help.

I have talked more openly to W about the search and the frustrations with it. For the past couple weeks I had been quietly looking, W took this as me not wanting MC, was building up and came out during the spat we had last Saturday, I quickly told her at that time I had contacted 4 MCs and they all have been booked, that I was researching and continuing to look, her tone changed and asked why I had not told her, we talked it out ... but as Wonka hinted this is a issue with W. So I think I have found a solution, a compromise if you will. We talked yesterday while she was driving home some and Retrouvaille came up, I emailed her the information and she said she received it, was the same info she got at the Parish center.
Our issue, one that we have discussed over the past couple years, was how we put S in between us, lost 'us' and with this retreat we would need to find a place for him. We regrettable do not have many friends, none who we would say .. "Hey can you watch S for the weekend" something we both want to fix ... ironically we needed to GAL more and meet similar couples but we just never really did that. I expressed even after we figure out what to do with S, we need to have time for us again. In my head I thought ... its not something that we had to worry about while we were separated .. when she had S I was GALing, while I had him she was able to bond with OM, but now that we are trying to reconnect its trying to do so and not make S feel like we are leaving him out ... this is an issue we need to address and fix.

Anyways ... Retrouvaille is in late June, W brought up there is one in Sept, not sure which one we will try to attend. I am not so sure we would make it till Sept, but then again June is coming on like a freight train ... we will talk about it and figure it out this weekend I hope.

[uRworthy]

Wonka, I agree the intent has to be similar. Maybe my wording wasnt clear.

If you read back on my interactions with Cali, I never told him not to have MC. I think they should at some point. But if he is having serious doubts about wanting to do it now, I dont think his feelings should be disregarded.

I think Cali is doing what he needs to do for him, while taking her wants and feelings into account, but his matter, too.

I do not think Cali is at all trying to DIY. He is weighing his options, following his gut and doing his homework. He is also having open dialogues with his wife about stuff that didnt work in their marriage. That also goes a long way in working through this.

By the way, Raine's h was very clear that he wanted her and the marriage. Which made a huge difference in how she acted and reacted. But as I wrote to Cali, those things arent going to come from his wife at this time.

It is great that we can all have different opinions regarding stuff based on our own experiences.

[Wonka]

uR,

Absolutely...we all here are trying to offer up ideas and perspectives that enable posters to evaluate and ponder before taking actions or engaging in discussion with the WAS/MLCer. I think we both have similar goals here, but each has a different flavor based on our own filters and experiences.

[CaliGuy]

Good Morning ... raining here, we do not get much rain so its nice and reminds me there is actually a thing called "weather" and it is not always 75 degrees and sunny, I know this will make a few of you line up with 2x4's but I do miss the rain and dare I say the snow.

Last night normal routine, picked up S, swung by the store, home and cooked PorkChops, mashed potatoes, steamed green beans .... desert... strawberry icecream. W TM around 6 that she was just leaving work, these check ins catch me .... not that they make me spin but remind me of when she would sneak off and see OM on the way home and claim traffic was bad, plus she worked late .... there was no need for the update as S was with me last night, more of a "Here is where I am" kind of thing, not mindreading but she seems to be trying to earn trust back with these things. I noticed the text but was cooking, 10-15 min later she calls, she was a little down, hard week, I told her I was making dinner ... she asked what I was making, said it sounded good and missed that kind of food (She can not have it due to her strict heath diet) I told her she could come over ... knew she wouldnt, told me she had to go to the store and then do laundry, I let her go so S and I could eat and shower.

She TM later asking if we could talk after S was down ... so we did. She shared that she was down, she has been having outbreaks all week and was depressed about it. I was quiet ... she asked if it upset me when she tells me these things.

This was an area of our M that was tough, her heatlh was an issue and the reason that we could not have sex ... 3 years. (Then she was miraculously healed and slept with OM) ... however during that time I was frustrated, nothing I could do and for Mr Fixit this just built up to a point I couldnt handle it. Over the course of my journey I realized I will never be able to heal her, she will have good days and bad and all I can really do is be there for her, I was not ... something I feel I should have done better ... hindsight and all.

So I told her, yeah it upsets me. The fact the outbreaks will be a constant reminder of the A and OM, its going to take some time for that sting to go away. We had a talk about it ... was not a fight but was not always a calm talk... I told her I still had questions and issues, surprisingly she asked me what they were so we talked. I told her lately I feel like she is just sweeping all this under the rug and trying to act like it didn't happen, she shared that she was trying to move on from it and focus on the future. We talked about MC and she shared how she did not want to open up and share the STD issue with a stranger ... I can understand that but that means its an issue we would have to address somehow somewhere. The talk last night was not all happy and chipper ... W shared that she wants happiness and hope, mentioned I need to be 'softer'. She might be right, I am guarded to a point at times .. things to think about, good thing is we seem to be telling each other what we need/want .

This morning dropped off S, its raining ... W came up and unzipped my coat and asked me to take it off because its cold ... I laughed well yeah thats why I am wearing a coat ... then she gave me this look and said "I want a hug take off the damn coat" ... made me laugh. We hugged .. she held on tight, told me she was up at 12, wanted me there with her .. I joked she could have come over ... I was not leaving my warm bed. At that point I just looked at her and kissed her ... thought as I did .. this might be pursuing, but its what I want/need in order to start reconnecting with her ... was not a make out fest just a warm simple kiss.
We talked a bit, I told her to drive safe and have a great day. Planning on taking her to little Italy for mothers day .. simple but should be nice, with her its usually just about getting out of the house and going somewhere, I'll have her bring her camera, we will do a nice lunch somewhere ... should be nice. This is 180 from old Cali who was always to exhausted from the DJ gigs to go do these things, looking back ... seeing how far I have grown ... I really like the new me, looking forward to what I can be... shame I had to go through all this to realize my potential, but as we all know .. without all this no way would I have changed as much ... there is a lesson in there somewhere

[CaliGuy]

^^

Forgot to add. So the MC thing which has been discussed here, I have not located a MC who seems to be a proper fit, AND have openings for our schedule. My gut/faith tells me this is not by accident. W and I touched on MC last night, we talked a bit and I had told her that I agreed we needed it, but as I had shared before was frustrated that "All the good ones seem to be taken" so the search continues. She brought up the Retrouvaille and I said that I felt it really could not hurt but we have S to figure out where he could stay ... again another M issue that we really need to figure out .... that spun into a convo about making friends, and actually working on those new relationships... being more social ...something we both want.

So this morning she brought up her old HS friend who she has bonded with over the MLC crisis, she knows all .. she suggested that she could possibly watch S, but was concerned S would not like is as she has 2 girls ... I told her we have to think big picture here, and its only a couple days .. I think if S knew we were going away to work out things, he would atleast have an understanding about it .. not like we abandoned him to go party it up in Cancun ... hey .. on second thought ...lol.

So ^^^ surprised me ... again .. her showing effort and thought into this, looking toward the future ... the talk this morning was like I had my W back for a minute. Time will tell and we will see where this all goes

[BrightFuture]

Cali, I might see you at Little Italy I like 75 degrees and the sun, but we needed some rain here...

Sounds like you are making some progress with W. I think honest talk about the issues and feelings is absolutely essential in a healthy marriage. I was not good at it, neither was my H after about 3 years of marriage. We were able to do it at the beginning, somehow. Then life happened... with all the accumulated hurt feelings, resentment, unresolved disagreements, etc.

I would ask for you to be “softer” too. And I think you made an attempt at it. Good for you! Love reading your posts, BTW.

[CaliGuy]

Cali, I might see you at Little Italy I like 75 degrees and the sun, but we needed some rain here...

Sounds like you are making some progress with W. I think honest talk about the issues and feelings is absolutely essential in a healthy marriage. I was not good at it, neither was my H after about 3 years of marriage. We were able to do it at the beginning, somehow. Then life happened... with all the accumulated hurt feelings, resentment, unresolved disagreements, etc.

I would ask for you to be “softer” too. And I think you made an attempt at it. Good for you! Love reading your posts, BTW.

BF .. we need more rain, I work tonight and they have an early game scheduled for S tomorrow morning ... selfish of me sure, but would not break my heart if they called the game off ...lol

That was one of the heart to hearts when she decided "she wanted to try" with the M. We acknowledged like you said .. our communication left a bit to be desired, as well as 'us' time .... like you said life happens and then you poke your head out and whammo, you never realize how bad it was as you just became used to it.

The softer side thing, Its not like I am a total harda$$ but in a way I can see it ... and outside looking in I can also see she almost needs to know I will not punish her for all the MLC darkness things that she did, not that I am looking to but she had said a few choice things repeatedly that at some point I need to get cleared up, if that's how she felt ok lets address it, if it was just spew to hurt me, mission completed ... I do not think sweeping things under the rug will get us where we would like to be, but I know working on these things is not something she is looking forward to.

I caught a similar vibe with Raines story ... seems there is a time and place for these things and I do feel it is not time yet, seems to me I am in a good place, I have the luxury of knowing a bit about what she went through, she is still dazed and trying to figure out where she is ... like waking up from a druken night out ... "where am I , what happened, I did WHAT? Oh my ... I can not face people" So yes .. I have to be gentle but at the same time firm. Seems I am getting better at this I just have to continue to not fully open that box of pain and hurt, it all has to be in small amounts and dealt with as such.

Thank you BF

[BrightFuture]

Cali, I can see that you feel guarded. And you have all the right and reasons to be. I’m not saying that you need to welcome her with open arms. I was just thinking about something recently. I read about how posters mention Raine’s and rH’s posts and their journeys of reconciliation. You learn a lot from this, but there is one thing that I think is different in your sitch. You are a man trying to reconnect with the WAS woman. I think there are some differences. Raine’s H stated clearly that he wanted her and the M. Your W didn’t. And she might not do it the same way. She can apologize and be remorseful, but she also wants to be pursued as a woman, ya know...

I sense that she will not be the one to pursue you forever. I’m not saying that you need to jump the hoops. And I really don’t know what kind of advice I can give you. It is just such a delicate balance, I think. On the other side… We all want what we cannot get, LOL. So, your approach might work better than others.

I don’t know if I’m explaining my thoughts well enough. In any case, I’m cheering for you, Cali.

[AJM]

I sense that she will not be the one to pursue you forever

Of course not. She would be broken if she did

At the end of it all, it's a dance. Distance/pursue. Rinse. Repeat.

The end all question if is you'll dance together or not. I dare say, it's likely you will. Long way to go and all that, but way more likely than say, a month ago. When I say dance together, I really mean will you work through the thing we call 'life' together or apart. That's really the question and has been all along, right? Because there will always be highs and lows for you both and together. Always.

Nice job on the kiss Cali. Snuck that one in there, yeah? But honestly, doing it because you wanted to was honest and forthright and sends the message that you're working on it and want to work on the relationship. Nice job on being honest both with yourself and her about your feelings.

You have learned your lessons to date. I'm sure there's more, but you're ready to handle them

AJ