To forgive

[Lifes Twists]

I thought a discussion about a concept that I struggle with and many others here do as well. I see a lot of us write" I know I have to forgive them."

What is it to forgive and is this the right thing?

I have been thinking and talking with people a lot lately about this.Forgive and forget, forgive and move on. What is the right way to look at this?

To me, right now, to be forgiven is the same as to give respect. Is it a given? A right? I don't think so. I believe right now it has to be earned. I can accept this is the person they are right now. That their actions are based on being this person. That I don't want this kind of person in my life. I can let the anger go because their actions and words are based on who they are right now. I know I can not change them so it does me no good to get angry or hold anger in. This does not mean that I have to let them hurt me. I can step back and hold them away out of my life.

They will have to earn my forgiveness. They will have to show me that they are a different person. Someone who has grown and changed. It is their right to seek forgiveness if they acknowledge what they did and show that they changed.Until then I can accept that this person is someone I don't know and don't want to know so why let what they do control my life.

What do you think?

[mirage]

Lifes Twists,

I think life is many times a "paradox", meaning its the exact opposite of what we think.

Your tying a certain set of conditions to an outcome that you want to see before you would even think of forgiving someone. I think that would keep one stuck in a judgement mentality and therefore limit ones ability to move forward.

Forgiving someone who hurt you frees you up, to move on, live the life you want, not being stuck being a referee to continue to look at the resume they bring to the table as a person then deciding if they are worthy of your forgiveness.

Just some thoughts.

Mirage

[Matt165]

Hi LT,
I too struggle with the concept of "forgiveness". I hear people say that it's for myself that I should "forgive" my W. But, like you, I think forgiveness is earned, like respect. I most definitely do not respect the person my W is now. That person has made choices that someone I would respect would NEVER make. I know that she is in "crisis", that there are "reasons" for this crisis. But that doesn't mean she isn't the person who made those choices, no matter why.

In order for me to forgive I feel that she must first, at the very least, recognize the harm she has and is still causing and second, actually seek to be forgiven. I doubt that she has the strength of character to do either of those things. Not in the state she is in and who she has become. Who is the person that she truly is? Is it the person that I knew and loved and swore would never do all the things she is now doing? Or is the person who she really is the one who she is now? Who am I to say that she isn't being the person who she truly is now and the person who she was was a lie all along? Either way, I just can't seem to bring myself to forgive someone who is actively still doing things that hurt so many, being so selfish and yes, cruel.

I know that I would have never let someone like who she has become into my life, have children with that person, build a life around and with them. No, I wouldn't have given her a second look and never allowed that person into my life in any way. Until she at least stops what she is doing, stops actively destroying all I have worked for, I don't see how I could ever "forgive" her.

[Georgiabelle]

LT,

For me, forgiveness is the acceptance that things happened and I'm willing to put then behind me so I can move forward. I don't think forgiveness is for he other person-particularly when they haven't asked for it or don't even think it's needed. It's what is necessary for you to come to peace with what has happened. Doesn't give someone a free pass, excuse someone's actions or behaviors, or make all forgotten. To me forgiveness allows you to heal (and it is a process) to get you to a place you want to be.

I do understand your thought process. However, the reality is someone may never change, ask for forgiveness, or think that an apology is necessary. Think about where that leaves you. Stuck., IMHO.

[Lifes Twists]

Hi GB,

Are you actually forgiving them or are you accepting what they did is part of who they are and putting it behind you? That is where I am at. I look at forgiving as a bigger act than just accepting and moving on. So I am struggling with using the word forgive.

I agree that they may never change, ask for forgiveness, or think an apology is necessary. I accept that and don't dwell on it. To me accepting that and moving on is not the same as forgiving. I don't harbor anger or speak badly about her or her actions. I accept that she owns them and I cannot control them. All I can do is to try and limit their impact on me.

Is that forgiveness? I don't know and I don't know if I need to strive for something bigger?

[Georgiabelle]

LT,

I don't want anyone to think I'm the Dalai Lama and have just swept my xh's actions under the rug:-). Forgiveness is a process and I am working through this. I have my moments (particularly when the kids are arguing or I see them struggle) where I think "expletive xh!!!" However, those aren't very frequent.

My dad did something in my teens that really mader angry. He lied repeatedly about somethings that put us in a very precarious financial spot. We relied on the generosity of others to eat and keep the lights on frequently. I was always so close to him and I was *dissapointed and *angered* by his behavior for about 3 years. It was a huge mess that I won't get into. Right before leaving for college I realized something. My Dad did the best he could. It wasn't right, but in his mind he thought what he was doing protected us. As soon as I realized that I forgave him. And I really did. It was hurting ME to hold on to it. He was human and perhaps that was what I realized.

I admit it can feel different with your spouse. I mean we * chose* this person so if they betray that bond of trust, what does that say about us? Attention....mindreading and predicting the future ahead! I don't ever think my xh will apologize to me or the kids. He doesn't think he's done anything wrong so why would he???? That is not the point. I do realize my xh has done the best he can with his non existent coping abilities and fragile mental state. I don't have to like it and now I have every limited interaction with him. However, I don't want to bitter, angry or vengeful. It's too difficult. I can't *expect* him to earn forgiveness because I have no idea if he will ever care. Again, that's about him-not me.

I will get there and you will too. It's okay to be angry and hurt. However, if you never forgive them (in your way and whatever that means to you) then that holds you back from being your best. And that would just sukk!

Hang in there and be kind to yourself:-)

[TSquared2]

However, I don't want to bitter, angry or vengeful. It's too difficult. I can't *expect* him to earn forgiveness because I have no idea if he will ever care. Again, that's about him-not me.

I will get there and you will too. It's okay to be angry and hurt. However, if you never forgive them (in your way and whatever that means to you) then that holds you back from being your best. And that would just sukk!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Matt165]

Hey GB,
I have a question on this subject. What about if the person is actively still doing the things (or new ones) that are causing so much hurt and pain to you and your loved ones? It's one thing to "forgive" someone for doing something in the past (even if the recent past) but does that forgiveness apply to each new way they are causing difficulties? How do you stay in the forgiveness mode when each new day seems to bring some new way they are causing you problems?

[Ggrass]

LT,

Doesn't give someone a free pass, excuse someone's actions or behaviors, or make all forgotten..

This above is what my h expects my forgiveness should look like. I find for me it's not as instant and ready to serve as his macdonlds version. It's a process, it takes time to dim and the hurt to subside.

I never had the chance for the hurt to subside as h kept adding to the pile before each event was put in the past.

H justified the things he did as he didn't realise they would hurt or be offensive, but know if I did them to him he wouldn't stand for it. Yes I know a major double standard.

I committed minor misdemeanours in the r, while he committed ones that insulted caused emotional Hurt and would be considered by most in society as betrayal.

Ie I left crumbs in the house and wasn't up to his neatness standard
He had an a!

Really not in the same neighbourhood, but to h crumbs are huge! Hence we had/have major conflict.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi LT,
I too struggle with the concept of "forgiveness". I hear people say that it's for myself that I should "forgive" my W. But, like you, I think forgiveness is earned, like respect. I most definitely do not respect the person my W is now. That person has made choices that someone I would respect would NEVER make. I know that she is in "crisis", that there are "reasons" for this crisis. But that doesn't mean she isn't the person who made those choices, no matter why.

In order for me to forgive I feel that she must first, at the very least, recognize the harm she has and is still causing and second, actually seek to be forgiven. I doubt that she has the strength of character to do either of those things. Not in the state she is in and who she has become. Who is the person that she truly is? Is it the person that I knew and loved and swore would never do all the things she is now doing? Or is the person who she really is the one who she is now? Who am I to say that she isn't being the person who she truly is now and the person who she was was a lie all along? Either way, I just can't seem to bring myself to forgive someone who is actively still doing things that hurt so many, being so selfish and yes, cruel.

I know that I would have never let someone like who she has become into my life, have children with that person, build a life around and with them. No, I wouldn't have given her a second look and never allowed that person into my life in any way. Until she at least stops what she is doing, stops actively destroying all I have worked for, I don't see how I could ever "forgive" her.

I used to think of forgiveness like you. But I don't anymore. For one thing, I think you're more discussing a reconciliation and for THAT, I'd need to feel reassured that the affair would not happen again and for THAT

i'd need to see awareness of the harm, and a willingness to be transparent and an apology of some sort (but usually they feel justified in their affair and usually, sadly, there is SOME truth to their complaints. Does not equate to justification but it does show the "slightly gray" area that can be misused.

However, my anger was consuming ME and interfering with my parenting. I was not fully present for my kids when they really needed me b/c I was so upset and sad/angry. I also felt my h DESERVED my anger and NOT my forgiveness.

But I heard someone say

"Holding onto anger to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire,

to get smoke in their eyes..." (and that<<<< really hit me as spot on)

I was the one most hurt by my not forgiving. I really mean that.

In our vows it often says "from this day forward" and I think that was genius and I look at forgiveness as us putting the past down, and NOT picking it up again.
Lose the scorecard b/c they never belonged inside a marriage

(From Corinthians: "Love does not keep a record of wrongs",.... etc)

My h had to know I would not hang it over his head like the Sword of Damacles, and he needed to know I would Not throw it in his face the next time we had a fight. If we make it nearly impossible to "earn" our trust again, then why should they bother?

So when I say I forgave for ME, I mean it.

But how does one do it? What does forgiveness look like? I never saw it growing up, that's for sure.

So I really did not know what it looked like. But for ME, the "dropping it and not picking it up again" and the "from this day forward" mantras, really truly helped me to begin.

It's not a linear process either.

But this is a great topic and it's interesting that it is such a big part of our Judeo- Christian heritage, but so few of us learned it growing up. And it is a learned skill. I say we keep talking about it!