OK, here's a big quandry I have in the DBing philosophy! I understand the reason for no R talks if one partner is unsure and R talks are part of pursuing.
Once you get to the peicing stage--how the heck to resolve problems in R or even go to MC WITHOUT R talks???
I have been told and read that the two biggest predictors to a married couple divorcing are: 1) habitual conflict avoidance and 2) negative attitude.
My H is an extreme conflict avoider. I'm more communicative and have more of a need to try to resolve problems, but after years of being shut down and R talks avoided, I gave up and shut down.
Now we have unresolved problems from the past (how to deal with money, kids, fair division of labor, etc) and huge issues post-affair about trust, forgiveness, commitment.
Not talking doesn't work for us. We both start assuming we are mindreaders and thinking we know what the other is thinking and get all screwed up. H and I decided yesterday that instead of occasional R talks at MC, we need to schedule R talk time.
We started last night and it was very helpful. Yes, there were times when anger and hurt feelings took over, but not so much to de-rail the goals. Slowly, as I learn more about the mindset my H was in when he initiated the A (it was what I can only call and "exit-affair" to start the process of lea ving our M), the easier it is for me to understand, forgive, see my part.
The more he opens up and talks to me, the more I can see the difference in his thinking now ("if something is wrong in my R, what could I try doing that might help make it better") I can see that he's taking responsibility, making a lot of effort, being pro-active.
In turn, seeing the changes and understanding where he's coming from keeps me more positive and I can show more appreciation for his efforts.
No R talks (lack of communication & avoiding talking about and resolving problems) was our downfall. Is the "no R talk" rule more for the early stages--but not for the piecing stage?
Talista- I know exactly where you are coming from. You have felt you do all the talking in trying to resolve issues, H does very little talking and you get no where.
It sounds like you have made an excellent start. You are right there needs to be time to talk about R. And scheduling this time and putting a time limit on how long it lasts allow for issues to be addressed out side of an emotional state. In prior R talks when you did all the talking I bet it was frustrating to get little response from H and then the emotions start to fly. When emotions are high it is hard to hear the other person, especially one that doesn't talk much.
I have also started writting letters to H when I feel I need to address an issue. This way I can read back and make sure I am saying what I mean and make changes. The only draw back is that I have asked questions of him in these letters, which he doesn't respond to immediately and I start to feel he is ignoring the issue. I am learning to give him time.
Talista - I think that you have hit the nail on the head with the need for R talks when your piecing. Like your H, I am a bit of a conflict avoider. Early on in the DB process, I did approach my W to set aside some time each week that could be used for R talks but W was not interested. She said that sleep was more important than us talking. We are in joint C about once a month and I have recently brought up the subject again - W is still not interested.
What you have been doing seems to be working for you so I would encourage you to continue on that road. Keep those regularly scheduled R talks going!
Quote: No R talks (lack of communication & avoiding talking about and resolving problems) was our downfall. Is the "no R talk" rule more for the early stages--but not for the piecing stage?
I think it's a matter of what works...and if no r talks isn't working then there must be some r talk...a balance so to speak, not going overboard with r talks all the time..
I've discovered so far that for me..r talks are ok occassionally but talks about the a or ow are not productive at this time so for now I try to steer clear of r talks that have any negative conotations to them in regard to the a the seperation or the ow. for now anyway.
Yes, letters have been a big help. You have to really stop and think about what you want to say. There are drawbacks to doing it that way, too, I'm finding.
What seems to be working is that if something comes up that one of us feels a burning need to talk about, we can say, "can we schedule sometime to talk about such and such?". That way, no one is getting blindsided or put on the spot, and things aren't always discussed in the heat of emotion.
I have told H several times over the past few months that I had a lot of questions to ask about the OW and the affair. I didn't want extreme detail, but needed to hear his story. Last night, we were able to start that process when I asked H to start telling me, given what he's learned in Counseling, what he would have done differently at different steps. He was able to give me some good information that lets me know he's done a lot of thinking about how NOT to get in that situation. I didn't push too much, but was able to ask some questions and let him know that I wanted to continue talking about that subject as we go along.
I had been a bit afraid of beginning to really talk about the OW. I was afraid he'd get really defensive, and that I wouldn't be able to help but get angry. Framing it the way we did made things feel safer for both of us.
If the talks work for you, then go for it...I don't think there are any set rules in piecing..if so I probably should not be here as h and I are seperated and he does not seem to be ready to do any talking. We seem to get along pretty good..talk a few times a week..see each other..but nothing related to us.
Learning how to talk without blame and anger must be the first hard step..
Just jumping in on your thread...I agree with the R talks. and I'm on piecing too. My H and I are both conflict avoiders. H worst than me, because like you I want to talk and he didn't so I shut down. H had the A.
Now when I talk to him I argue and am angry. Can't get pass that anger yet and it is 7 months.
((Purpley)). I read the things you and LostLove write about and it often hits home in a deep way. I feel much the same...but less and less so as time goes on.
H and I had planned to spend this weekend together and drive around looking for some good camping spots. Two and a half months ago, he wrote me a letter (expresses himself much better in writing than face 2 face). He sounded very doubtful that we would be able to repair our R, but did say he would want to try and asked what "conditions and groundrules" would we both need to have him come home?
Well, this weekend we spent a lot of time driving around talking about all of those things--my expectations...his. So ironic that as it turns out, what we want is basically the same--to feel closer, to feel like partners, to feel secure, to feel accepted and not negatively judged.
Early on, I was horrible. I ripped him up one side and down the other when I found about about his A.
I raged. I shamed. I screamed. I burned his belongings. I put hair remover cream in his hair regrowth spray and secretely laughed to myself everytime I saw how his bald spot seemed BIGGER each time. I told him that I'd been unhappy with our R for a long time and should have been the one to go mess around on him. I told family and friends how I'd been wronged. I emailed and called OW -- screamed at her and called her a flaming C**T. I came to their work and stared her down. I let him know that just seeing him brought up homicidal thoughts.
In other words--I went pretty much psycho. I can't judge anyone else for their reactions to their own situations, I have no right. At the time all I could feel was like a wounded animal. All I could think was, "how DARE you neglect me, sabotage our relationship, then go screw around on me?!"
H, was, needless to say HORRIFIED, but also very surprised because he'd given up on our R...thought I didn't love him or like him anymore, but he felt obligated to stay and be responsible.
When we split, he realized that I did care...that I had loved him and he'd lost me. He felt that even if he tried everything, he'd never be able to fix it--wouldn't even know where to start. He wanted to run everytime he saw the hurt in my eyes or my anger.
I was having my own rude awakening at the same time. I realized that if I continued to feed and nurture my hurt, resentments & anger, that I would never heal. I knew I wanted my H back, and I knew that if I kept feeding the negative stuff he would never think there was a hope in hell for our R. I didn't just want the R, I wanted a better R, and that meant this old dog had to learn some new tricks!
I decided to act "as if". I encouraged and acknowledged his every little effort and stopped pointing out his "failures". I gave him specific things to do and say that gave him a sense of control if I started to get reactive. I gave him (I'm not kidding) scripts to say...practically cue cards, to reassure me when I would ask for reassurance. I reassured him, over and over, that while I may really dislike some of his behavior, I deeply loved him as a person and as my partner (you can't change who you are, but I have faith that you can change behavior that is destructive to our R). Most of all, I acknowledged my own failures, weaknesses and regrets.
H and I have never gotten legally married. For the last 9 years, we have lived in a legal limbo that some States call "common law". I have felt hurt and humiliated for a long time because H started out saying he wanted to get married, but somehow there were always excuses and something better to spend the money on, etc.
Today, H said, "I will never understand why you love me or how you could want me back after I betrayed you so terribly, but I give up trying to analyze it. I can't help but see and accept that you really do love me."
He also said, "I think that I have done the worst thing that could have happened to our relationship, and yet, somehow--we have been able to start turning things around and I feel that we are closer now than we have ever been. I don't feel like I need to keep my running shoes by the door anymore--just waiting for things to fall apart. I think you need to have a solid symbol of my committment, I think we should set a date and get married."
This is me today: ...and at this point, I would be happy if he'd just come home...but I don't think it will be much longer.
I'm not saying that I don't express my hurt and pain at times, but I don't try to punish H. I tell him what I feel, but don't go overboard with it. It will take a long time to heal, and trust will not come easy at times. I choose not to focus or obsess about the negative things, though. When I do feel anger and hurt rise up, I try not to leave H feeling hopeless and helpless in the face of my emotions.
That's my rambling for today. All in all, it was a great day and we got a lot of things resolved. Hard to accept that it took an affair and nearly losing each other to realize we needed to communicate better and the rest would come naturally.
Talitsa: After a second separation, h ask me to work on ur M, this time he also wants to assit for a MC... and he is accepting he is passing a crisis and that his changes in look had affected us... so, i want to ask you something... i also have many many questions about OW, friends, and that... How to speak about that without making them feel pointed...?... i need to know what he had found in that women, what he was lacking just to go looking another company, or ehat he was feeling... i will appreciate your comments... And about R talkings, i think is essential in piecing stages, always applying the tools we now know, the rools we an get from C and walways with a piece of humour and happiness... Andrea
I'm trying to think of all the various things that have been working...
H read both DR and a book called "After the Affair". Both describe in great detail the effect that having an A affects your partner. That helped H to see that what I was going through was pretty typical. Both books relate that the betrayed partner will have lots of questions and want to talk about the A and that the unfaithful spouse should be forthcoming and accountable. That helped H see that my requests are not unreasonable.
I think (big generalization here) that men often compartmentalize parts of their lives and parts of their relationships. To me, the concept of sex with someone I don't know or someone I don't like or care about is unthinkable. To my H, as with many men, he was able to compartmentalize and rationalize that his A was with brief and with someone he didn't care about. I'm learning that (statistically) many men who have affairs aren't even necessarily unhappy at home and do love thier wives (how the hell do they DO THAT???)
He's learning that women (generally) think in a more integrated way (tip the domino down way over there and it sets up a chain reaction). To me, his A affected and degraded everything. The betrayal and specific memories of dates and times he snuck around and lied will stay with me for a long time. I let him know things like how every year, on his birthday, I will have to live with the memory of where he was on his 48th, and that he smiled and lied in my face about it. H recently said he thought we would have to do something symbolic on that day every year--for both of our benefit.
When we do talk about the A, I try to make sure it comes before and after constructive talks about our relationship (sandwich it in between good stuff). I tell him that I want to hear his "story" and that I need a better understanding of what went wrong. He tells me as much as he is able to, and I may ask a few questions but not push too much. I ask at certain points what he would have done differently now. Then I will say, "next time we talk, I'd like more information about..." and tell him what I'd like more detail about. That way, he doesn't feel blindsided and has some time to really think about what I'm asking. I've also let him know that it's much better to give me information than to leave big blanks for me to fill in with my imagination!
It's very hard for me to keep my composure during some of these conversations, but I try to remember to be compassionate. I can honestly see that H has caused himself a great deal of hurt and shame and is truly remorseful.
I have tried to avoid asking a lot of questions about specific sexual activity with OW. That wouldn't be terribly productive for me to hear about.
Where we are now in the ongoing discussions is focused on dishonesty and betrayal. I've told H that it's very hard for me to deal with knowing that my partner, my best friend, a man who made promises of fidelity had lied in my face repeatedly. Knowing that, it's hard to want to try again and believe anything he may promise to or agree to again in the future.
For the next time we talk about the A, I've asked him to get down to the hard stuff: describe and be accountable for the lies to me and the sneaking around.
To tell you the truth, I can't believe that my uncommunicative "Silent Sam" has actually been opening up. I can't believe how much energy and attention he's putting into trying to make things work out after years of avoidance and wishy-washy non-commitment.
This stuff is HARD, excruciating even! The cost of not doing the work would be splitting up and feeling the loss and regret. The carrot on the end of the stick to motivate us to keep going is the hope for a better relationship.
I don't know if any of this has answered your questions or helped in anyway. Good luck to you!
