It's interesting in that you have some similarities to my W. She also has a difficult time saying no when she should...like at bars and such. My sister, on the other hand, will be downright rude sometimes, which isn't the right approach either, but there is a balance here. As well, my W has also been molested. It's not something that she really consciously remembers (but there are "body memories"), but she does get uncomfortable with certain things sometimes. Oddly enough, she has always been one to speak her mind and not really hold back (kind of like LL )...so the dynamic with her is interesting. Are you similar in this respect?
It already seems like you know the answer here. This man's "advances" don't entirely seem innocent to me, but I'm only reading a limited description... Instinctively you already know what boundaries are reasonable and what are not. I guess, as LL suggested, it's a matter of learning how to say no thanks...and if they persist, be more insistent.
I'm sorry you've had to go through what you did some years back. Molestation is unspeakably awful...and its affects are never really reconciled.
OMG, wow, almost could've written your post myself (but not a therapist or ex-therapist). Also had an alcoholic father who screams instead of talks (but of course only when just family are around) and was molested as a child. Also was a WAW.
And just a few weeks ago talked about the problem of being able to say no, or feeling like I have the right to say no, to men. I hate you're going through that too but now I don't feel so weird!
I wish I had some advice but I'm stuck on this one too. Always has been a problem for me. My H always said I was naive. I always tried to be nice, always led me down the wrong road. A guy would hit on me and I'd freeze. Or not tell him to stop because I thought we were friends and didn't want to hurt his feelings. I still feel like most 18 yrs old have more maturity about this than I do at 29. I guess maybe it's a self-esteem thing... growing up with an alcholic father who never taught me about healthy male-female relationships (I didn't grow up with my brothers so he was the only male in the house), then being molested and losing that control over myself and what happened to be during that... guess I never felt I had a right to stick up for myself or to say no, that other's feelings were more important than my own. I'm still working on that.
The only way I've totally avoid that altogether is just to be a hermit (which was H's answer to this - keep me locked up for fear some guy would hit on me or look at me). But we can't avoid men, they make up half the population! We just have to get wiser about this and learn to say no and to heck with them if they get their feelings hurt! After all, we are married so they obviously weren't thinking about us when they hit on us!
Another lesson I learned about all this is that I give off a "vibe", like wearing a target on my forehead that says "hit on me, I might be easy because I have low self esteem and I want to be nice". Guys pick up on that like a radar.
I'm young and not an ogre I guess, but Lord knows I'm not Miss America, and I'm fairly shy around people I don't know so I'm not Miss Personality either. Loser guys just know when a girl is naive about stuff like this. Even nice guys know and sometimes they mess up too. I've lost most of my male friends through my entire life because of this problem. It's enough to want to join a convent.
Very interesting thread. While we are being honest,I feel compelled to say I have felt the desire to have someone ask me to go to coffee. Often. I have been left 3 times in one yr. and the thought of another human (ok,man!) taking an interst in me is very appealing. Very. I have not sought such a thing out, but have been approached by men while out with my SGF. While this feels good, and validates that I am still desirable, these men so far have been married. There is not one chance in h### that I would ever consider such a compromise and have had NO problem telling them in no uncertain terms that they should go home to their wives. BTW, I too was molested growing up by my stepbrother and had an alchoholic Father. Baggage, but dealt with baggage. I am not afraid of intimacy. My H is terrified of intiamcy, so I'm not sure what it is he is getting from the OW. Probably just plain ole'good sex. While I crave the attention from another male, if I got it from someone that was NOT married, I know I would attempt to control the R to keep it platonic. (yikes!) Oh, I don't know where I'm gong with this except my H and I are NOT working on our R right now and I don't know if I even want to continue to try. I have burn out with him saying and doing all the same things over and over and nothing ever changing. I find myself longing for the companionship of a male friend. Funny-I used to long for the companionship of my H. Something is changing inside of me and it scares me a little. I know to look for a rebound R is not a good thing yet I feel like I just wasted the last 3 1/2 yrs of my life trying to keep my M together, and my thought is-this is not going to work out. I'm not looking for a R. but I fear that if one came my way I would be too vulnerable not to test the waters. Not to eccept the attention I crave. There, I said it. Now, tell me why I should not have any kind of R if my H shows no interest in me and has come back home (3 times) just a shell of the man he used to be to say he "tried". Oh, how we are stuck when in this sitch!! I hate this limbo, but cannot do anything about it right now for many reasons. I'm just tired of being alone, that's all. It felt good to get that out! Rachael
Interesting responses here. I am very fortunate to be among those who was not molested as a child or teen. Thus I have never had problems steering away unwanted attentions.
I completely understand, though, how having the background similarities (molestation, alcoholic father...) would encourage such confusion around male attention.
In fact, in talking about OW#2 with me (months ago) CJ revealed that SHE had a very similar background and she too was "hit on all the time", had lunches with administraters from the college she attended, had her lawyer hit on her years earlier, went on a date with him a few months ago....
And she too professes naivete about the situation. And doesn't want to "hurt anyone's feelings". She also has an odd sense of boundaries: like she was willing to lie to her new boyfriend to keep "talking" with CJ...
At 15 my brother's best friend, whom I'd had a crush on for years, came on to me. He cajoled, he joked, he outright said "I know a good way to kill an hour" (wink, sexy smile). I was dating (seriously) my ex at the time and just said "I have a boyfriend, I couldn't do that".
Honestly, I never even THOUGHT about hurting his feelings. I just listened to that inner compass that was shouting "WRONG!!!".
So how can you guys begin? You can wait until you're "strong enough" as Sam's therapists said. I say Phooey to that!
SAM, knowing what you do about cognitive behavioural techniques, how about some role playing? Or challenge those thoughts of "I want to be nice" "I can't say no" and replace them with the perfectly viable options LL outlined.
Maybe this is scenario where you can "behave your way to success" (Dr. Philism ). Just try on the behaviours, it may well be that after some practise and time, how you feel inside will come to match your actions. Perhaps the success and mastery you will experience (and proving to yourself that it's not TERRIBLE to say no or "let someone down") will translate into a boost to your self esteem.
My favourite is "I don't think that would be a very good idea"....or just "No, I don't think so, but thanks for asking".
I know, I KNOW it seems a lot easier from my perspective. And I surely don't mean to trivialise this at all. Clearly it's a problem many share.
But in my experience, nothing BAD has ever come of politely or jokingly turning someone down.
I just got up from a lengthy "rest" so forgive me if I'm rambling here!
How about this: the next time some man comes up to you and asks if he can buy you a cup of coffee, say, "no, but can I have the money instead?"
I wrote extensively about Sam's and my counseling last night with my reasons for why I feel it should be, especially because of the way our marriage is right now, instinctive to say, "No. It isn't appropriate." She doesn't want to hurt someone else's feelings? Um, hello...what about me over here.
Now before everyone jumps on me for being insensitive let me impart to you all that I have never called Sam naive and that I absolutely love how kind she can be. She has an inner and outer beauty unsurpassed by any in my eyes.
But can't you understand my anger? I have only known about the affairs for eight weeks, and this sitch doesn't lend itself to my trusting her more.
If it helps, I want everyone to know that I feel the way most, if not all, of you think about this sitch, combined now with what you know about her past. I have felt as you all do for many years and I have tried to help as much as I could. I want her to be happy and healthy. There's more, of course, but I am too tired to write of it.
Thank every single one of you for helping Sam (and me).
LL, lots of good perspective. And Shiny, good suggestions on how to behave. Actually, just the realization of how MISGUIDED my perspective was has helped me.
Sent an email to the guy saying "I don't feel comfortable...it's a once-a-client-always-a-client thing...I feel a bit uncomfortable going from therapist to civilian even though I'm not practicing anymore...not that I'm going to avoid you at school, I'd just prefer to keep the boundaries as they are..." He send a reply saying "If it makes you uncomfortable, no problem. I'll see you around."
I sent a reply saying "thanks for understanding."
ANd you know, it was SO SIMPLE. I did a good job. All I had to do was cut through the fear, admit that my (former) way of doing things was actually somewhat disrespectful, and really wimpy, and then I just said "thanks but no thanks, no hard feeling."
D*mn. Life is so simple if you just take a moment to get your head screwed on straight. And talk to your H about stuff...He's such a sweetie. I'm very lucky.
I'm sleepy...had great picnic with the kids (rain finally let up) and then came home and worked on the yard. I LOVE to do that. This is the first summer we've ever owned a home and been able to work outside w/o having to chase a kid every 15 seconds (or less). FINALLY!
Ok, gotta go.
Thanks again for all your support. You know, I've said this before to people, and I don't mean to dig for any more info from anyone (unless you feel a need to share), but I don't think I've ever met a woman whom I've known well enough for her to share stuff like this with me, who hasn't either been raped/molested or had to have an abortion.
Not that men don't have it tough too, I know you do. But geez, we women do get placed QUITE FREQUENTLY into positions where we end up feeling guilty/out of control. Helps so much to share our experiences, but society still puts a lid on us doing so. Well, we put it on ourselves, becuase, sometimes to share is to open yourself up to even more vulnerability that we just don't need.
Yeah, what are the stats...1 in 4 of us were molested in some fashion? Wonder if that's just based on reported cases?
My observations mirror your own. My two best girlfriends, my sister, I had a creepy old man try to put his hand up my dress while I was sitting on his knee, but I pushed it away and got the heck out of there!
Hey, didn't you feel a sense of relief and rightness when you sent that e-mail and got his response? Seems he took it very well, ahem, as I predicted .
And lest you are starting to think I'm the queen of boundaries, I assure you I am NOT. I managed to let myself get VERY involved with a student of mine who has an eating disorder. I was the first one she told. I got her into treatment. I TOOK her to doctor's appointments. She told her mom with me there in my office.
I learned a great deal from that experience: the primary message I recieved (in meditation/prayer) was that "I cannot fix what is not mine to fix". I took that to mean I must work on myself, and no longer agonize over why she wasn't getting better...I had to withdraw and set some boundaries for the sake of my own health!
I'm MUCH more careful now not to let myself get that involved.
Well it's very late now, that 3 hour rest earlier really buggered up my sleep cycle
Thanks, shiny for the support...I posted this to you on your thread, but thought I'd put it here, too:
Yes, I DID feel a sense of "rightness" after I sent the email to the former client. I also saw him last night at a school event, introduced him to SBH, and chatted with him a bit. He definitely was OK with the boundary I set. And SBH said my interactions with him were fine. Whew.
I am REALLY having a hard time with guilt & anxiety. After the session last Thursday when I got called on the carpet for the email, I was able to allow myself to open up to the part of me that allowed that stuff to happen, very painful & threatening. Then this morning I had my own individual counseling, and she REALLY let loose on me for it. In a strong parent kind of way, but it sure does open up a lot of wounds. I entered the 2 months of receipts we had for our checking account in the afternoon, which isn't exactly and uplifting thing when you're unemployed , then went to another MC session. But I was 20 minutes late, because I wanted to finish the reconciliation of the first month's statement.
I beat myself up the whole way there, then spent the next 15 minutes talking about that stuff...anyway, I just feel drained. And, if you haven't noticed the time of this post...I woke up at about 3:30am feeling very anxious. My Dad had at least one serious panic attack (ended up in the hospital) when he was in his 20's. I'm starting to wonder if these nighttime awakenings aren't mild ones for me. I felt sort of closed in, lying in bed...the alarm clock staring me in the face, I agreed to get up at 5:15am to fix SBH's lunch, mostly b/c I felt so guilty about things (he is really hurting right now, too, not that he hasn't been really hurting for the past 6 months, but he expressed it last night and on Sunday morning). ANyway, I went to D5's bed - she & S3 have been going through a phase of wanting to sleep on the floor in our bedroom, so I could get away.
SBH came in about 10 minutes later - had noticed I was out of bed, and came in to check on me. THat felt VERY GOOD! He suggested I get up and play on the computer until I felt better...
Well, I guess if I'm this down for the past 4 days, I will start feeling better again soon!
I already listed my 3 good things for yesterday on LL's thread. I'll try to come back today and do it. It really does help!
). Just try on the behaviours, it may well be that after some practise and time, how you feel inside will come to match your actions. Perhaps the success and mastery you will experience (and proving to yourself that it's not TERRIBLE to say no or "let someone down") will translate into a boost to your self esteem.
, then went to another MC session. But I was 20 minutes late, because I wanted to finish the reconciliation of the first month's statement.