Thanks, kjb. Tell me a little more about your story, if you would. How long has it been for you since the A? Did he give up the A cold turkey, with no further contact? How usual is it for the S to slip up and contact the OP? Should I forgive that if I find out about it? Do I threaten divorce?
Thanks too for your thoughts about God. I still pray. And I've let Him know exactly how I feel, in some very angry prayers. But I'm still praying.
Last night I arrived home to find W in a better mood. We had a nice almost normal non-R conversation. I showed her the "After the Affair" book and where I would hide it (from the kids), so that she could read it if she wanted to. Later, I gave her a back and neck massage, and it was so nice to have some physical contact with her, other than a quick hug. She told me that the OG and she did not give each other massages. I don't know if that's true, of course, but to give her a massage was something that still felt like it was "our" thing, and it was very nice.
This morning, before she woke up, I checked her cell phone (I know I should probably stop snooping so much, but I really need to know that she is not contacting him). The phone showed that she had erased all of the phone numbers of the recent incoming and outgoing calls. Since she uses her phone a lot, she must have erased these yesterday. To me, it's not clear evidence that she has contacted him, but it's very suspicious. She would have no other reason for erasing those numbers.
Here's more: Using the same computer snooping that I used to find out about the A, I found out that she had redirected her cell phone bill to be sent to her email address, so that I would never see it (she pays the bills, so I often don't see the bills anyway). I went on-line to check the bill and found out that over the course of April, she made 180 calls to him, wrote him 77 text messages, and received at least 100 calls from him. OH. MY. GOD. I was astounded. That's roughly 12 contacts per day. And that doesn't include the times they physically got together. Even considering that many of those contacts were probably just to say "call me later" or to leave a message, that's incredible. BTW, she told me on D-Day that she "only" talked to him once or twice a day (why did she bother lying about it?). I am only now realizing just how totally she wrapped her life around this guy. I wonder if our children have noticed how much they have been neglected. Her cell phone bill was over $400, and that's just 1 month out of 3 (the other months are probably similar. That pisses me off. We do OK financially, but not good enough that an extra $400 a month doesn't make a big dent. (I know, I know, that's the least of my worries.)
The point is, I'm not sure that she will be able to go from 12 contacts a day to 0. As I said in my last post, her evident withdrawal symptoms yesterday I took as a good sign. But I'm not sure at all. The "erased numbers" thing from this morning certainly has me wondering. So the question of the moment is, how tolerant should I try to be if I do find out that she has contacted him? Should I try to forgive it the first time? Or, should I tell her to leave (which I really don't want)? What do you think?
dcr - Your advice about really thinking about whether I want to know the answers to questions is very sound. My tendency is to ask every question that pops into my head. Thanks also for pointing me to the "The Need to Know" site. I think I will have the W read that. I will go again to the Marriage Builders site.
How much snooping did you do, if the days and months after finding out? I really need to know how to handle such questions as, how aggressively should I snoop? Should I, or how many times should I, forgive her if she slips up and contacts the OG? Any thoughts?
I will continue to work on myself. I think I've made a lot of progress since Feb, and I think my W was seeing that. Since my W was so totally wrapped up in the OG, it is amazing to me that she was able to see anything at all of the changes in me.
It's incredible to me that she was able to have 12 contacts with him per day, not including their getting together, take care of the household and kids (even minimally), and then act relatively normally around me (even having sex). How did she handle all that?
Prayingforhope - Your situation must be very difficult. Thanks for posting. A friend of my W is having a problem with her husband being "addicted" to pornography. Your problem sounds like the female equivalent problem, except that it's more dangerous, since she has real contact with the people she is cheating with.
Not that I really know anything about this stuff, but I would think that your R is probably very saveable. It sounds like the main problem is getting your W to think of her problem as a problem, and not acceptable behavior.
I'm no computer expert, and have only recently looked into computer spying software. I don't remember the name of the program that I use (I'm at work now), but I'll try to get it for you. There are other programs that are probably at least as good as what I'm using. The following website sells many of the programs: Computer Spy Software Of the programs they sell, SpyBuddy seemed to look pretty good, but I don't really know.
Not knowing must drive you crazy. It does me. Good luck.
Quoting eskb: How much snooping did you do, if the days and months after finding out? I really need to know how to handle such questions as, how aggressively should I snoop? Should I, or how many times should I, forgive her if she slips up and contacts the OG? Any thoughts?
Brian -- In the post before this one you wondered if you should allow a slip or two, or ask your wife to leave if you find out she contacts om. You also indicated that you didn't WANT to ask wife to leave, right?
So....what are you gaining by snooping right now? It may make you feel like you're in control but you're not. It may make you feel as though you're not being "taken advantage of" -- trust me when I say that deciding to work on your M is NOT being a patsy -- snooping doesn't help or hurt that.
For me, snooping has resulted in the following: guilt
nervousness
the ability to find just what I'm looking for, even if there's nothing to find
a continued focus on op when I should have been focusing on myself and m
an actual feeling of LOSS of control (when I was trying to gain control) because I CANNOT stop S from seeing op.
Many other things...
It's impossibly hard. It feels weak to not snoop (am I not protecting myself?) but it's actually strong. If you want your M, focus on DB'ing -- throw yourself into it so much that you don't have time to snoop!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
brian, the need to know article is great. i gave it to my h about 8 mo. into piecing and he read it and understood me better. great suggestion to write your ?'s down. gives you time to decide if you really need to know. when i have a ? i do this in my head...do i NEED to know, will i feel better knowing, will the answer help me put this behind me or keep me obsessed, does it really matter? after i go through this list i think about it at least 24 hours, then if i still feel the need to know, i ask. unfortunetly only one in ten answers ever made a difference in my misery. i hardly ask anything anymore, it isn't worth my h's anger and dragging up the pain. they NEVER like to be reminded of what they did.
for you, as you have seen your w had an addiction to the affair. if you keep asking about og, it will keep him in your w's mind. eventually, you will be able to get more answers, but right now your w hasn't detatched yet from this or. ( i may be wrong, but this is what i suspect)
what worked for me was working on making myself as healthy in every way as possible. for the first 2 mo. we were piecing , we spent lots of together time reconnecting and doing fun things and NOT talking about affair. our relationship was too fragile.
h thought about ow#1 for a long time, romantacizing the love affair right up until he broke up with ow#2 and took the time to be realistic and get c to put it into perspective. your w will need time to "get over" her feelings. and this sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!! but it is worth it not to make it an issue. you don't want her always wondering what if.
God got me through it. he didn't cause it or allow it. he gave my h and the ow free will. he didn't want me and my d to get hurt. but my h's self-will was too great and the ow too needy and messed up. praying kept me calm and sane when even meds weren't enough. i still pray everyday. it is so hard to not blame someone isn't it?
but one thing i know, it is not your fault. you don't deserve this pain. so go out and take care of yourself. join a gym, a book club, a basketball league or whatever. have some fun. the happier and more secure you are, the less your w can find fault with staying. and don't make any decisions about d yet! this crap takes so long to work through. in 2 years you could be so happy with her and your family! or you may decide you can't do it. but right now is too soon and you are in too much pain.
hope i didn't go on and on too much. take care,lisa
Hi Brian, First of all if you really don't want to ask W to leave, Don't. You and only you will know when that needs to be done. I actually got to the point where I asked H for a divorce and I meant it. That's when things started to turn around. My sitch is Not sure help if you would like to read it. I can understand the snooping and still would like to do so myself but have to really disapline myself not to. We have only been truly back together for about a month and it is very hard, my H works w/ the OW. Try to work on you that was a very hard thing for me. I know how hard this is I wish I could give so much more advice but I'm still new at this myself, but I am there for you. I have made alot of mistakes and it's normal I just wish I could have db'ed more before now and maybe it wouldn't have gone on as long as it did. I can help with what I did wrong. This is a very scarey thing I worry everyday, but IL my H so very much and am not willing to give up 16yrs. (half of my life) with him if we can get it back. Take a look at my posts there is some very good advice there from some fellow DB's. It might help, and it'll tell you alittle bit about my sit. Take care of you. Let me know what you think. ~~K~~
Sage - Can I quarrel with your advice? I guess I tend to think more like dcr, who a few posts earlier said, "For me, it was impossible to conceive of working on the marriage until the affairs were stopped", and "you should also take specific steps to assure yourself that the affair is not continuing during the healing process".
I know from the other threads that many here have been DBing while their S is still having the A, even while still living in the same house. But as much hurting as I'm doing now, I cannot imagine that pain. How does a person in that situation ever get through the day?
Plus, I have already "laid down the law" to her regarding contacting him. She does, after all, have a lot to lose if we D. New house, relationships with friends, neighbors, family, financial devastation, maybe even the kids. It seems to me to be a huge disincentive. I don't want to give her the impression that she would not lose these things if she continues with the OG. On the other hand, D is a card you can only play once. I don't want to play it too early.
Additionally, if she continues to contact the OG 12 times a day, how can she possibly ever do the work necessary to come back to the M? It would seem that my only hope would be that their R falls apart on its own, which it may not do.
You are very, very right about the control thing, though. I do feel very much like I have lost all control over my life, and snooping does bring a sense of some control.
I'll continue to think about what you said, though, and I'd love to hear back from you if you have more to add.
"I do feel very much like I have lost all control over my life, "
That is not true. You may not be able to control the choices your wife is making but you do have the control to either stay and put up with this nonsense or leave or move on. If you behave like a doormat the chances are very likely that the affair will continue and your marriage will certainly fail. She needs to see that you are not willing to accept a third party in your marriage. That may mean filing for divorce to show that you are serious. If she wants to stay married than she needs to earn back your trust. That means no hidden cell phone accounts etc. The point is that you cannot save this marriage by yourself.
I'm calming down now. The discovery of the sheer magnitude of the number of contacts during the A left me shaking my head most of the day. I am seeing it now in terms of a sort of addiction. I see now why the withdrawals she is going through are so difficult.
I hope tonight is as nice as last night. I need to gently let her know that I know about the phone bills, and maybe if I tell myself right now that I WILL NOT get upset about the frequency (or the cost) of the calls, then we can move on. I simultaneously want to have nice (maybe even somewhat loving) times with her and at the same time want to vent on her to show her how much damage she's done. I want her to feel bad and wish on a gut level that she didn't do this. At this point, her "sorry" primarily means, "I'm sorry I got caught", and, "I'm sorry that you are hurting", but it doesn't really mean, "I wish this had never happened". But it sounds like from what you and others are telling me that maybe this sort of sorry can come later, and that I shouldn't try to push it.
You are also right about God, free will, and the desire to blame someone. I had a long talk today with the W's girlfriend in whom she has been confiding. I was angry at her too, for not telling me, or at least convincing my W to stop the A. The truth is, though, that she was not to blame. She was trying to convince my W to end it, but she was being more subtle than I would have liked, probably knowing that my W would have just stopped talking to her rather than end the A.
Thanks for sharing about your situation. It is a big help to get advice from so many truly wise people. And I do find hope that so many people have been successful in putting their M's back together.
Davis and kjb - I think that I agree with you both. On the one hand, I don't think I can put up with "this nonsense" for long. I just would not be able to emotionally handle an OA. On the other hand, I really really don't want a D and I somehow think that I should allow for one or two slipups while she gets over this "addiction". I won't ask for a D unless I have decided that it's the only way.
take care,lisa