Questions on the 37 rules and other advice...

[S4tk]

Hello,

Three months ago my W shared "out of the blue" (for me at least) that the love was gone, no more connection, that I am controlling and manipulative, that I have stolen her voice, etc.

Partly because we were living overseas, and partly because I do have fix-it tendencies, I broke many of the 37 rules before I knew they existed. She wanted to fly home with our two young kids, and leave me right away - I begged her to stay initially.

Since that time, we have returned to the States and I have stopped trying to analyze her, fix her, etc. I have turned to me, thankfully. It is less maddening and actually something I can control.

Our jobs are tied to our marriage (pastoral / mission work) and so I have had the temptation the last 90 days to believe the sky is falling. The reality is that yes, the sky is falling. I am in danger of losing my wife and kids, and everything else (all the other shattered dreams) which domino from that. But I have determined that everything else is worth throwing away in order to save our marriage.

She has removed her rings, told me she is "done", mentioned separation a few times, has changed some credit card passwords, made a resume and put it out on monster.com and other sites - several other things. So I have good reason to believe that if she felt independent enough, she would have left with the kids or asked me to leave by now.

I am not 100% sure there isn't an OM, but I fairly believe there is not.

So, I have a few questions about following the 37 rules. Is this the right place to ask?

T

[S4tk]

Figured I should post my background too...so I am pasting here the post I made in the newcomers thread...


Here goes...

We have been married 11 years. We met on the mission field (both coming to the same country with that desire independently). We have a D-5 and S-1.5. We have had ups and downs in marriage, but I thought these last 5 years since D was born, things were pretty good. Busy, but good. I suppose I was blind or unwilling to look under the surface.

3 months ago, W shared that she didn't love me anymore, that the connection was gone, that she was "done." Within 5 days of the initial bomb, she took off the rings and said she was leaving with the kids.

Though vague about her reasons for losing love for me, she has used words that I hadn't heard these 11 years: controlling, manipulative, "stealing her voice", etc. 7 years ago she also was unhappy - she has been through depression twice in our marriage and went through therapy at that time. I found out then about some really sad stuff from her childhood and past, and kind of ignorantly didn't know how to support her with it - so I let the therapy progress and she came out feeling better. At that time, she saw that some of the changes that needed to be made were not just related to her, but to our M. She asked for more affection, a weekly date night, evening couch time to talk, and a house and to begin trying to have children. This all seemed reasonable to me, and we have - for the most part - kept all of those things since that time.

So the bomb in July just shocked me. Additionally, because of our work, we were living in a small country in Eastern Europe and the reality of separation or divorce would take us away from our work, our network of good friends, etc. In short, my world was rocked with the threat of many aspects of my identity (husband, father, vocation, friend) being ripped away simultaneously.

The first 6 weeks up until end of August, I broke many of what I see referred to as "Sandi2's rules." I begged for time, I promised change, and at the same time I was also obsessed with figuring her out. I spent hours googling everything from depression to bipolar to attachment disorders to midlife crises. I finally realized the damage I was doing by driving myself nuts, and occasionally her as well.

We flew our family home in early September, and since then I have been doing individual therapy. Although the therapist isn't the brief kind that Michele advocates (he is typical psychoanalysis, but with my faith background mixed in), he is good and is leading me to own my sh1t in all this. So I have still been screwing up and not exactly DBing these last six weeks, but I did leave behind some of the damaging things I was doing the first six weeks.

We did one joint MC session and she told the therapist she is 100% done. We scheduled for the following week but the day before W decided she didn't want to do it. I had learned enough the I was starting to DB without knowing it (just found the books and this website about 3-4 days ago). When she told me she didn't want to return to MC, I had about 30 minutes where I went to another room to silently process impending doom. Then, I realized that her refusing a 2nd session of MC didn't mean that she will leave tomorrow necessarily. I saw that I was placing all hope in certain things (MC, her daily responses, etc).

I would qualify us as basically S under the same roof. We eat together with the kids, watch TV in the same room, but touching her even casually has become off limits. She doesn't wear her rings, and is working on a resume - presumably a step in the process toward S and maybe then big D.

I am reading DB, almost finished. Have bought DR but haven't started it yet. I am torn between the idea of going dark, which I am reading about in this forum, and the idea which likely emerges from the therapy and from my faith background, which is continued repentance toward her for my part in this, and continued pursuit to win her heart back.

I have many questions for you DB vets, especially those who have seen their M restored.

That's my story up to this point. I am saddened every morning with the prospect of losing the love of my life, and the kids. But I am beginning to work on GAL and some 180 stuff. Figuring out which 180 techniques to implement is tough, because I'm still not sure that the explanations W have given me are clear enough for me to figure out what exactly to change. This, to me, seems to be a most important question that I need to figure out.

TB

[AnotherStander]

I found out then about some really sad stuff from her childhood and past, and kind of ignorantly didn't know how to support her with it - so I let the therapy progress and she came out feeling better.

My W had a very difficult childhood and past including some life-threatening abuse. I got much the same speech that you did at BD, and it came as a shock to me too. I've done what I can to make myself the best person I can be, but I think her past prevents her from fully trusting anyone, even her H of 20+ years. And it definitely has prevented her from being an effective communicator, her approach has always been to run and hide rather than communicate.

We did one joint MC session and she told the therapist she is 100% done.

That's very typical WAS talk. Even though she's convinced she'll never change her mind, she could very well do so. But it'll be a long, long time before she does.

We scheduled for the following week but the day before W decided she didn't want to do it.

You may have read enough here to know this already, but it's a bad idea to push a WAS into MC. They'll only go to check it off their list of "things I tried to save the M but that just showed it really is dead". It's unwanted pressure on them at a time that they want no pressure.

She doesn't wear her rings, and is working on a resume - presumably a step in the process toward S and maybe then big D.

She probably is planning her "escape". That's OK, it's not the end of things. Often the real healing doesn't begin until after S.

I am torn between the idea of going dark, which I am reading about in this forum, and the idea which likely emerges from the therapy and from my faith background, which is continued repentance toward her for my part in this, and continued pursuit to win her heart back.

Many of us tried the pursuit route after BD and it just flat does not work. DB'ing doesn't always work in bringing the spouse back, but it works often enough to be taken seriously. But I am not aware of pursuit ever working, usually it just pushes the WAS farther away. Since you're a man of faith, I recommend Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough". The approach is very similar to DB'ing. He'll walk you through why pursuit doesn't work, and offer ideas on what to do instead of pursuit.

I'm still not sure that the explanations W have given me are clear enough for me to figure out what exactly to change. This, to me, seems to be a most important question that I need to figure out.

DB'ing is all about becoming the best person you can. We accept our faults and work on them because we only have control over ourselves. But, the whole reason we have to give the WAS time and space is because THEY have plenty of issues themselves, often they have bigger issues to resolve than the LBS. There is nothing the LBS can do to help them resolve their issues other than leave them alone. Once the LBS is out of the picture, the WAS sometimes starts to realize that the LBS really isn't the source of all their problems, and they instead need to look WITHIN. But it's a long, slow process for them, based on the success stories here a turnaround rarely happens in less than a year.

So be patient. As a fellow believer I'll tell you this really shook my beliefs to the core. It took me a long time to realize that despite my frantic, heartfelt prayers, God was not on MY timeline, and neither is my W. I have to respect their timelines instead.

[S4tk]

I found out then about some really sad stuff from her childhood and past, and kind of ignorantly didn't know how to support her with it - so I let the therapy progress and she came out feeling better.

My W had a very difficult childhood and past including some life-threatening abuse. I got much the same speech that you did at BD, and it came as a shock to me too. I've done what I can to make myself the best person I can be, but I think her past prevents her from fully trusting anyone, even her H of 20+ years. And it definitely has prevented her from being an effective communicator, her approach has always been to run and hide rather than communicate.

We did one joint MC session and she told the therapist she is 100% done.

That's very typical WAS talk. Even though she's convinced she'll never change her mind, she could very well do so. But it'll be a long, long time before she does.

We scheduled for the following week but the day before W decided she didn't want to do it.

You may have read enough here to know this already, but it's a bad idea to push a WAS into MC. They'll only go to check it off their list of "things I tried to save the M but that just showed it really is dead". It's unwanted pressure on them at a time that they want no pressure.

She doesn't wear her rings, and is working on a resume - presumably a step in the process toward S and maybe then big D.

She probably is planning her "escape". That's OK, it's not the end of things. Often the real healing doesn't begin until after S.

I am torn between the idea of going dark, which I am reading about in this forum, and the idea which likely emerges from the therapy and from my faith background, which is continued repentance toward her for my part in this, and continued pursuit to win her heart back.

Many of us tried the pursuit route after BD and it just flat does not work. DB'ing doesn't always work in bringing the spouse back, but it works often enough to be taken seriously. But I am not aware of pursuit ever working, usually it just pushes the WAS farther away. Since you're a man of faith, I recommend Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough". The approach is very similar to DB'ing. He'll walk you through why pursuit doesn't work, and offer ideas on what to do instead of pursuit.

I'm still not sure that the explanations W have given me are clear enough for me to figure out what exactly to change. This, to me, seems to be a most important question that I need to figure out.

DB'ing is all about becoming the best person you can. We accept our faults and work on them because we only have control over ourselves. But, the whole reason we have to give the WAS time and space is because THEY have plenty of issues themselves, often they have bigger issues to resolve than the LBS. There is nothing the LBS can do to help them resolve their issues other than leave them alone. Once the LBS is out of the picture, the WAS sometimes starts to realize that the LBS really isn't the source of all their problems, and they instead need to look WITHIN. But it's a long, slow process for them, based on the success stories here a turnaround rarely happens in less than a year.

So be patient. As a fellow believer I'll tell you this really shook my beliefs to the core. It took me a long time to realize that despite my frantic, heartfelt prayers, God was not on MY timeline, and neither is my W. I have to respect their timelines instead.

Another Stander,

Thank you for the reply. These words encourage me greatly. What a scary time - 12 years ago as an engaged couple we talked together wholeheartedly agreeing divorce would never even be on the table. As you said, it can shake some beliefs to the core. So far, I am able to still seek God. I need to practice what I have preached for years: He is not our puppet. And I do believe in a fallen world where humans are screwed up and that both W and I entered into a covenant that we should not have expected to be a walk in the park. But I think that's what I thought.

We went out for a drink last night to discuss a trip she needs to take, and to discuss living arrangements - since returning Stateside we have been living in temporary housing and we need something longer term. I simply thought we would be discussing timelines, but she brought up "how it would look like." Wanting to avoid R talks, I tried to change topics unsuccessfully. So again last night, possibly stronger than ever - she suggested separation.

I am beginning to buy the fact that "what I am doing isn't working." (As per the DB book pages 164-165) and that 180's are necessary. Here are two big questions for you Another Stander, or any other member:

1) Should I say anything to speed up the S? From what I am hearing, there's a good chance she won't see her need to change, or come anywhere close to wanting to reconcile, until S happens. On the other hand, I don't want her to say in the future that we mutually agreed to separate. Next time she brings it up, If I were to say something like, "Well, if this is what you want, then we need to figure out how to make it work financially and with the kids," then that would definitely put us on the S fast track.

2) If S occurs, what in the world do we/I/she tell our D(5)? Our S is 1 and 1/2 and won't understand anything right now. But our D is so precious to us both and I don't want her to think I am abandoning her. That thought tears me apart.

TB

[jp787]

S4tk,
Welcome, your in the right place, people here care and are here to help.

[quote=S4tkThough vague about her reasons for losing love for me, she has used words that I hadn't heard these 11 years: controlling, manipulative, "stealing her voice"[/quote]

Listen to what she says to you, at minimum this is what she feels and is her truth. Start to look inward to see what might be true about her words.

IDK if any of that is true or not, but I do know that many people are like fish, they swim in water all day, but have no clue they are in water.

I am a "recovering" controlling/manipulative bully that had his eyes closed to a lot.

Best starting advice is listen to the vets on here, they know that they are talking about. Read DB and Sandi’s rules. Sounds like you have done both. You sound reasonable and able to listen, that is a plus, I was frantic.

This most likely will be a long journey, so don’t expect anything quick.
Focus on making you and how you can become a better person, let your W focus on her and don’t get in her way.
I have been told that there is almost always an Affair. Either PA, EA or imagined in their minds, so keep that in mind, but don’t focus on it.

[Preggonomore]

S4tk, I'm no vet by any means, but one thing that has been giving me positive results (and it is HARD) is to do the opposite of what you have been doing. If you have been bringing up the R and crying and following her around, stop.

One advice I read here that makes very much sense, is to live your life as if you have come to your senses and decided to be ok and happy whether or not with the WAS.

I don't know if you read my whole stitch, but in the first day I did this, my H went nuts. He was very very bothered about it. He couldn't understand why I was acting nonchalant and not overreacting and emotional.

Beware that when that happens, the WAS may push more buttons because a lot of their behavior stems as a reaction from ours or are expecting to get a reaction from us. That's why when we step away from the picture emotionally, and sometimes physically, they are forced to look at themselves, because there's no push and pull to distract them and make them blame someone else. Makes sense?

I still have a LOT to learn, but this is what I've figured out so far.

[S4tk]

S4tk,
Welcome, your in the right place, people here care and are here to help.

[quote=S4tkThough vague about her reasons for losing love for me, she has used words that I hadn't heard these 11 years: controlling, manipulative, "stealing her voice"

Listen to what she says to you, at minimum this is what she feels and is her truth. Start to look inward to see what might be true about her words.

IDK if any of that is true or not, but I do know that many people are like fish, they swim in water all day, but have no clue they are in water.

I am a "recovering" controlling/manipulative bully that had his eyes closed to a lot.

Best starting advice is listen to the vets on here, they know that they are talking about. Read DB and Sandi’s rules. Sounds like you have done both. You sound reasonable and able to listen, that is a plus, I was frantic.

This most likely will be a long journey, so don’t expect anything quick.
Focus on making you and how you can become a better person, let your W focus on her and don’t get in her way.
I have been told that there is almost always an Affair. Either PA, EA or imagined in their minds, so keep that in mind, but don’t focus on it.
[/quote]

I *hope* I have not been a controlling bully, but I am exploring what that might have looked like in her eyes. It is just strange that she had never mentioned anything close to those words during 11 years.

As for the affair, I am prepared for that bomb to drop, if it ever does. But she has told me there is no OM. She has said that she has fantasized about what it would have been like to have married other previous significant others instead of me. Ouch. During the first month after the bomb drop, she was sending those kinds of verbal daggers almost daily. I might have been asking for it.

[jp787]

There may be no A, just fantasies in her head of being away from the M.

Take this time to listen to her, give her space, time and work on things to make you healthy and happy.

Do take time to look inward to see your flaws, we all have them your W too, but that is her journey.

[S4tk]

Thank you to those who have replied already. I think I will benefit from being part of this community.

1) Should I say anything to speed up the S? From what I am hearing, there's a good chance she won't see her need to change, or come anywhere close to wanting to reconcile, until S happens. On the other hand, I don't want her to say in the future that we mutually agreed to separate. Next time she brings it up, If I were to say something like, "Well, if this is what you want, then we need to figure out how to make it work financially and with the kids," then that would definitely put us on the S fast track.

2) If S occurs, what in the world do we/I/she tell our D(5)? Our S is 1 and 1/2 and won't understand anything right now. But our D is so precious to us both and I don't want her to think I am abandoning her. That thought tears me apart.

[S4tk]

I am also in a strange position. When we left for Europe, we began renting our home out. It is currently under contract to renters. We have been back a month, and have been living with some of my extended family. Obviously this situation is awkward since our marriage is in crisis. It means that we don't have a "home" since we left ours in Europe, and cannot move back to the place we own in the States.

So we are looking to rent a place ASAP. The problem is that my wife wants to move there alone (or with the kids, but without me). I fear this will communicate to our daughter that I am the one "leaving" since the three of them will be in their place together and I will still be living with family.

Does anyone think any of this is important? If the 180's and separation don't lead back to restoration, I would hate to have our daughter misinterpret any of this as abandonment by me.

I know I've made two posts in a row with questions, sorry. I'm just at a time right now where there are critical decisions to make. I realize many people probably join this forum after separation - not in the midst of.

TB