Hang on Lois. It really is somewhat simple, but the explanations are coming from various points in somebody's life journey. I can see how it is confusing - good on ya for sticking with it. I can see you do want to know.
I've been there. I wanted to know how to forgive. Or if I could forgive. I'm human. My brain and heart were screaming, "so she did x, y, z, and then some and continues to do so. But what about ME????" I talked to my pastor, my friends, my God, myself (that's helpful if not strange :))
I am a Christian. I have been told to forgive, but never really shown how by other people. It's easy when you watch others or hear stories. But it's harder when it's you and you come up with ideas about it such as "if I could just understand" or "if they would just stop poking at me and being hurtful" or "If my ex would just say they are sorry..." or ... The list could go on with things that are first.
When I die, I expect them to bury me face first so Dr Phil and Oprah and their types can kiss my a**. I find their pop psych to be detrimental and irresponsible. Just so you know where I'm coming from.
Forgiveness is NOT just for you. It's NOT just for...anyone except the person that needs to be forgiven. It has a side benefit of helping the person giving the forgiveness (depending on why they forgave - if for selfish reasons only, it has less value if you ask me; and often unresolved things that dangle along with it.) Forgiveness does not require anyone's input or action. It is yours to give or not to give. Period.
Trust as a gift to give? I hadn't thought of it that way, but I can see the wisdom. I also see the wisdom in trusting or distrusting when warranted. I can forgive and not trust nor forget. It would be foolish to forget or to trust unwisely (seems redundant I know, but think about it.) But the cycle of trust requires *somebody* to start, does it not? To take that leap of faith, somebody has to initiate the trust.
The anger? It doesn't go away when you forgive. It doesn't go away with trust rebuilding. The anger goes away when you get your perspective straightened out. When you get over your own disappointment at the events that took place. When you embrace what is vs what you wanted or expected and the gap in between. When you realize that you took a chance and it didn't work out as you expected, but that you'll be ok and likely better as you progress on your journey. When you realize we are all flawed creatures and although we may lie to somebody who trusted us, it doesn't diminish what we felt or wanted to be.
These are three separate yet intertwined items, Lois.
Letting it go is not easy when it's in your face all the time. When you haven't had a chance to regain your perspective. To let your own light shine. To let go of the hurts and expectations you *had*. Forgiveness of the other for not living up to the expectations is not that hard after you regain perspective. Forgiving yourself may be a little tougher Trust is the hardest because your concept of it is based on your past. That's understandable. It makes sense to do that, but the leap of faith is to rebuild trust when there is none there currently and the other person doesn't act the way you expect they should.
Crazy isn't it?
Re-think it though and it's not as crazy as it sounds...
Life's short. The goal is not to stay married to the same person and you'll therefore have a great life. The goal is to become fully human, to love your God and live a life that proves that out, and to hopefully share your life with a mate/companion that shares the outlook and journey with you.
Thanks to everyone for their responses, I have really enjoyed reading them.
Hi Cat ~
First, I'm sorry to hear about your surrogate daughter. Truly, I am. Having faith can get you through the darkest of times. I hope it will carry you and your family through this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You said a lot of good things in your post. I have thought about all of them.
"If your expectations are high that things are going to be suddenly better, that there is going to be a huge gesture that suggests committment, you are going to be let down. I think many of us expect something grandiose, like BD was. And that doesn't happen. The relationship will slowly evolve if it is going to.
If you allow it to..."
Very true. Which is why I have decided to give it some time to see what happens. On the other hand, one or both of us could get stuck in this holding pattern. That's not something I'm interested in, not how I want to live. He's gotta do what he's gotta do to work through everything. I get that. But I also have to do what I feel is best for me and my boys .
"From what I am reading, you are still very angry about the A and you, maybe not consciously, seem to want to punish him for that.
Doing that, won't get you very far."
I am still angry about the ongoing affair. Absolutely. I have been honest about that, have never tried to deny it or hide it in any way.
I have thought about the concept of "punishment" for a long time, it's been a discussion around here before.You are right, that wouldn't get me very far. Did I ever want to punish him? Yes, in the beginning when I first found out about the affair. It was a huge emotional blow. I wanted him to feel as hurt as I did.
But now... I don't want to punish him. What do I want? I want him to understand how deeply he has hurt me, to understand the enormity of what he has done. I want him to understand my point of view.
Maybe this is something that he will never be able to do. I realize this is a possibility. But it is something I would need to move forward in a new R. I'm not going to dismiss all my feelings, or pretend the past two years didn't happen.
"What are you waiting for?
Not forgiving him, is not going to help you in the long run.
You can't simply believe that you will be able to forgive him, you need to do it.
If you can't, don't want to, are waiting for some sign before you try...
Then you are wasting your time."
I don't think I'm "waiting" for anything.
While forgiveness in and of itself IS a choice, like everything else, it is a process too. I think believing that you can forgive your spouse is the first step in that process. Right now, the wound is still open, the hurt still festering. Though I have already decided in my mind things I will be able to let go. There are other things I'm still thinking about.
I want to forgive him, I do. Why else would I still be here? But I'm just not there yet - and I don't think that is wrong in any way.
Just as he will get to where he needs to be in his own time, so will I.
Bomb January 2012 - doesn't feel the same about me
~ "There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, hope, and endurance."
[quote=AJM]One of the funny things about this journey - as things change the lbs may find themselves with all the control. Suddenly. It tends to be as much of a shock as the BD. If not more. As the balance in the relationship changes, the LBS has to change too. It's inevitable. It's disorienting. It's why, I think, Mach was talking about wanting to hurry things up and take a giant leap, when the pace is much slower. Much much slower than hoped for. And still very tenuous. The MLCr could decide that it's too much to deal with and run away. The LBS might decide it's not "real" and push them away.
It's a delicate dance.
But one thing is certain, the MLCr is looking for integrity in the LBS actions and words. They are assessing of a sort, to see what damage has been done and if they can make that walk. The LBS wants to feel that it's real and has.."expectations" that may not align with the words they have previously used. There's a lot of lag in the conversation - you aren't dealing with the same person that left.
It's not clear cut. But I think what you are being advised is to go slowly and not have expectations. Focus on you and what you want in the long term. Don't focus on the short term wants and "goals" of what it may look like for them to come back. Instead, focus on what you want to be. What you can live with, and when. Focus on what is important to you in the big picture and decide what is worth dying on the hill for.
The MLCr will move at their own pace. You cannot change that. You can influence the direction they move.
Time is what it takes. More than you'd like to be sure. But in time more will become known - if you wait for it. If you have no expectations at this time. There will be time enough later to have expectations.
You are the prize. Know that. But be still and wait. And listen far more than you express those needs. For now.
Peace, AJ
^^^^^^^^^ awesome
Thanks AJ - I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Bomb January 2012 - doesn't feel the same about me
~ "There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, hope, and endurance."
I'm not so sure that it was me that had the exposed nerve hit.
"Me thinks you have a skewed vision of forgiveness..."
Well, me thinks you seem a tad bit superior and judgemental in that statement.
However, you are entitled to your opinion of what forgiveness is. But - so am I.
Maybe, it looks different for me than you. I'm good with that.
I stand by what I have said about forgiveness.
My nerve ?
No, It didn't strike a nerve with me.
Although I will say that after reading this forum for over 6 years, there are certain "red flags" that I see when certain topics are brought up.
Patterns of response, etc.
As for being judgmental and superior ?
Well, I do apologize if that is how you felt.
Forgiveness does look very different for me. And maybe that is because I stand on the other side of the River from you, hoping to see you swim instead of sinking. And while that certainly is YOUR choice, you are posting on a public forum seeking advice/insight from people that are either swimming, or have swam that river before.
And if that makes my words seem "judgmental" or "superior" to you...?
That has never been the intention with any of my posts. What purpose would that serve in helping you heal ??
"I want to forgive him, I do. Why else would I still be here? But I'm just not there yet - and I don't think that is wrong in any way. Just as he will get to where he needs to be in his own time, so will I."
It's hard T, so so hard, especially when the MLCer is living at home and in your face every day, and even more so when it was a double betrayal because the OW was your close friend. That is a horrible situation, very difficult to face. But you have been doing really well in holding yourself and your little family together, GALing, DBing, doing the best you can. I so respect you for it.
You wish this was all over already, but as you said, your H is on his own timeline thru his crisis. You did not deserve it or want it, but have chosen to Stand in a most honorable fashion. I know that forgiving our Hs and their OW (and ourselves too) is really important for our own peace of mind T, but it, for me at least, it has not been instant nor easy. I think it's something we have to turn over to God. Still another thing to give up, and trust that He will help us.
Linda
Me 65, Ex 64 M 38 y 2 adult S, 4 G-Kids MLC 11/07 BD 12/09 D 3/14 Dating nice guy 7/14 Engaged to nice guy 12/17
I'm slowly trying to catch up here and wanted to say hello. You seem to have gained even more strength in your time away.
I know you like quotes. Here's the definition of forgiveness that helps me the most: "It is to wish their good, to refuse to let cynicism master faith, hope, and charity, to hope for the best while keeping a firm eye on reality."
Trust is the hardest because your concept of it is based on your past. That's understandable. It makes sense to do that, but the leap of faith is to rebuild trust when there is none there currently and the other person doesn't act the way you expect they should.