As Starsky knows, I am not in favor of anything that smacks of punitive measures. IT's good to get different opinions. He and I often disagree.
But if I were in your shoes, I think the suggestions about the texts while you are around, are clearly needed. I was not aware she was doing it in front of you.
Also something more constructive than meek MC has to be done. Many mc's are more like divorce counselors b/c they are not solution based like Div Busting is. They focus on the past and rehash the pain of it. That usually fuels the partner who wants out, to leave. But you can find a solution based MC if you ask. Check to see if they have read or adopted any DB principles.
And in fairness to your w, you were an admitted jerk of a h. Short of physical abuse, you sound very difficult and you admit to being uber controlling. I can tell.
The level of snooping and confronting you do, in the middle of the night b/c you cannot control yourself, is more of the same.
A man in charge of HIS emotions, is attractive. A man who does NOT try to control others, (or wake them up again b/c he's freaking out again) b/c he is confident in his choices, is attractive. If you want to show her that you can change, CHANGE.
I highly recommend you attend Retrovaille. It's a marriage retreat for marriages in trouble. PLEASE look it up. IT did wonders for my m and many others. Of the 25 troubled couples in our retreat, 21 or 22 are still together.
That is amazing since 8 of them were planning on divorcing when they attended, and most of the rest of us were considering it. There are two reasons I see hope in your situation.
First, you SOUND willing to work on YOU, and capable of forgiving her in time, b/c you know you played a huge role in her choices. Begin that work.
Second, she is NOT telling YOU that "OM is the real love of her life" AND OR that she wants out of the marriage...yet.
So you have time. Use that GIFT WELL. Be a man only a fool would leave.
PS if you have the funds, hire a DB coach. I had one who was a Godsend. I think I ended up having about 15 sessions. It was cheaper than divorce.
Yes I tolerated more than I ever expected to, for longer, and I made some major changes in ME and how I react and see things...
but it worked. I am a better person for it, a better mother and a better wife.
Agree with nearly all of this. ^^^.
And as 25yearsmlc says, she and I hardly EVER agree, so that oughta tell you something, sw.
Time to start setting some initial boundaries. Starting with the "no texting from our marital home." This will help you learn the basic skills of boundary setting and enforcement (I personally SUKKED at this, as I am a natural "pleaser/rescuer/NiceGuy" type). "Boundaries," by Townsend, is an excellent book on the subject, btw.
Tell us more about what YOU feel your prior marital faults were (not what your wife, in her current state, says as people in affairs will often "re-write marital history" . . . I'm talking about you, in your heart-of-hearts, know to be true plus your wife's PRIOR complaints, before she got caught up in the affair). The things that "sting" because you know them to be true.
And in fairness to your w, you were an admitted jerk of a h. Short of physical abuse, you sound very difficult and you admit to being uber controlling. I can tell.
The level of snooping and confronting you do, in the middle of the night b/c you cannot control yourself, is more of the same.
A man in charge of HIS emotions, is attractive.
MWD recommends a "180." He nees to search his heart of hearts, and think about his wife's earlier-in-the-marriage (before her affair) marital complaints, and think about what kind of negative traits he was displaying. I usually only recommend the "strong stance" thing when I see that someone was a classic "Mr. Nice Guy"/pleaser, like I was. If he was GENUINELY a controlling jerk (and that's not just his wife's affair hormones, re-writing their marital history to justify her affair), then he should work hard on learning -- and displaying -- a nicer, calmer, more pleasing personality towards her (while still not condoning her affair).
As Starsky knows, I am not in favor of anything that smacks of punitive measures. IT's good to get different opinions. He and I often disagree.
25yearsmlc - I was hoping you would chime in. It was a string of your posts on a very similar thread that encouraged me to start "the rules" and to buy the DR book. Your advise seems to consistently align with the DR book and this site. I know that punitive measures are exactly the opposite of what I need to be doing right now but it is good to get as many opinions as possible and to hear what has worked for others.
But if I were in your shoes, I think the suggestions about the texts while you are around, are clearly needed. I was not aware she was doing it in front of you.
I agree but could really use some tips about how to go about this is a constructive way that does not come across controlling. I can not make a demand nor do I feel I could implement any consequences. Any Ideas?
Also something more constructive than meek MC has to be done. Many mc's are more like divorce counselors b/c they are not solution based like Div Busting is. They focus on the past and rehash the pain of it. That usually fuels the partner who wants out, to leave. But you can find a solution based MC if you ask. Check to see if they have read or adopted any DB principles.
The Psychologist/ Therapist we are seeing is far from meek. I doubt he would say he is inline with Div Busting but he is very VERY marriage / family oriented. All of his advise/ direction has been to save the marriage despite its fragile state. He has a very child first approach. He has given both of us individually very heated and passionate lectures about the damage we will do to our daughter if we divorcee. I think he just wants us to stop thinking about how each of us is currently thinking about ourselves and think about how our daughter will feel now and in the future. This is not to say he is suggesting that we stay in a bad marriage but that we at least make a serious effort to save the marriage before deciding it is over.
And in fairness to your w, you were an admitted jerk of a h. Short of physical abuse, you sound very difficult and you admit to being uber controlling. I can tell.
This is very hard to explain. I have had many revelation/ awakenings/ light bulbs turning on... over the past three months. One of which was when our therapist stated that I was a control freak. I never knew. I have done what research I could and am ashamed and embarrassed to say that I do fit most of the definition. I am committed to changing this and have already started. Most of the counseling I have received has only been to stabilize the crises. We have not gotten into how to fix my personal problems yet but I hope to soon. Meanwhile, with having the realization and understanding of this personality trait I am thinking about what I say and do much more and making every effort to remove anything that could be interpreted as controlling.
The level of snooping and confronting you do, in the middle of the night b/c you cannot control yourself, is more of the same.
I have stopped all snooping and spying as of a week ago last Tuesday but I admit that this is very hard for me. What I called "the truth" was very addictive. I understand that this is a week excuse but due to all of the lying (and my belief of the lies) I feel I have no bearing on what is true or lie. When I was spying I would at least get the truth. I did not like what I heard but it relieved the voice inside that was telling me something did not make sense and my attempts to find an answer to something that made no sense would stop. As I stated I know everything I need to know now so there is no point in spying or snooping but the lies do continue even though I have asked her just say nothing instead of lie.
A man in charge of HIS emotions, is attractive. A man who does NOT try to control others, (or wake them up again b/c he's freaking out again) b/c he is confident in his choices, is attractive. If you want to show her that you can change, CHANGE.
I highly recommend you attend Retrovaille. It's a marriage retreat for marriages in trouble. PLEASE look it up. IT did wonders for my m and many others. Of the 25 troubled couples in our retreat, 21 or 22 are still together.
That is amazing since 8 of them were planning on divorcing when they attended, and most of the rest of us were considering it.
If we get to a point that she wants to do some real work on our marriage I will suggest it. I think now, it would be a bit premature. If you disagree please let me know. She seems willing to do something but I'm not sure how far she will go.
There are two reasons I see hope in your situation.
First, you SOUND willing to work on YOU, and capable of forgiving her in time, b/c you know you played a huge role in her choices. Begin that work.
I am working on me! for sure. I have been working out for three weeks (i hate working out). I have committed to seeing a therapist to repair my unhealthy personality issues. I have stopped working so much to make myself more available to her and my daughter. I am now showing (not telling) my wife the love and respect I have for her. These are the things I am DOING not saying. I need to DO much more but this is were I am today.
Second, she is NOT telling YOU that "OM is the real love of her life" AND OR that she wants out of the marriage...yet.
She tells the OM that she loves him deeply but she tells me she is unsure if it is love or not. She has not said she wants out of the marriage but only once she brought up the subject of separation. She did not necessarily say she wanted one, she just threw it out there. I said that I did not want to separate and that I did not see how that would be working on us.
So you have time. Use that GIFT WELL. Be a man only a fool would leave.
I'm trying!
PS if you have the funds, hire a DB coach. I had one who was a Godsend. I think I ended up having about 15 sessions. It was cheaper than divorce.
I have had one session with a DB coach two days ago. I know she was trying to help but most of the feedback was general recommendations directly from the book. She did slowly try to explain what my wife is going through and explained that this was going to be a very long process if I decided to "weather the storm". What has given me the most strength came from the bottom of page 130 of DR: "As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's OK for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? BE PATIENT!"
I realize that if I were suddenly single I would have a heap of work to do on myself that is going to take some time. I don't have to make any decisions today in regard to our marriage. I'm taking the advice and focusing on myself and making myself "Be a man only a fool would leave".
Yes I tolerated more than I ever expected to, for longer, and I made some major changes in ME and how I react and see things...
but it worked. I am a better person for it, a better mother and a better wife. I am away on a business trip now and contact with my wife has been reduced to text messages. She has sent messages stating that she misses me, that she is thinking about me, and that she is depressed. Do you have any tips on how to respond? Also, yesterday was the first day that there were no texts at all. I am worried that because I have pulled back so far she may be thinking I'm bitter and being petty by not responding to her texts. I have responded to a few but I wait a long time in between texts and I keep my responses very general.
I could also use some help for when I get home. Should we be close? Should we have sex if she wants to? Should we be doing normal things together like going to brunch? When she is at home, often times she starts to warm up after a while. She initiates contact and wants to be close. Should I take a more distant approach. Should I say anything to the affect that as long as she is openly in the affair we need to keep our distance. I have tried to do this twice and failed. I told her that I did not want to "play house" as long as the affair was gong on and she would just get closer and I would melt and we would be right back to holding hands snuggling in bed and having sex. I know that being inconsistent is definitely the wrong thing to do but this is because I do not know what the right thing to do is. I don't want to do anything that will push her into his arms and a part of me things that rejecting her advances will do just that. Any ideas? Thank you very much for your time and support!
M-44 W-33 Daughter 7 M-9 D-Day 1 (06/08/2013) texts found D-Day 2 (07/10/2013) more texts found
And as 25yearsmlc says, she and I hardly EVER agree, so that oughta tell you something, sw.
I have read many of both of your posts and value both perspectives.
Time to start setting some initial boundaries. Starting with the "no texting from our marital home." This will help you learn the basic skills of boundary setting and enforcement (I personally SUKKED at this, as I am a natural "pleaser/rescuer/NiceGuy" type). "Boundaries," by Townsend, is an excellent book on the subject, btw.
I have thought endlessly about his. I definitely need some help doing this the right way. I can't come across as demanding or controlling so fining the right words and attitude has been difficult. When I rehearse what I might do or say in my head it sounds controlling so I have not done anything yet. I am hungry to learn anything I can so I will get the boundaries book with hopes of some guidance.
Tell us more about what YOU feel your prior marital faults were (not what your wife, in her current state, says as people in affairs will often "re-write marital history" . . . I'm talking about you, in your heart-of-hearts, know to be true plus your wife's PRIOR complaints, before she got caught up in the affair). The things that "sting" because you know them to be true.
I am embarrassed and ashamed to admit that in the current light it is hard to disagree with most of what my wife feels right now but I do remember the way I thought before all of this. Prior to my "awakening" I saw our marriage as "not good". We had a horrible sex life that frustrated me. She was / is a slob and the chaos of the house being in such disorder was very frustrating. My biggest gripe was her lack of support for my desire to quite my "real" job and focus on the business I started about three years ago. This business has grown over the past few years and is equal to a full second job. I WORK A LOT! All of the work and stress and dissatisfaction with my real job left me VERY grouchy, unhappy and mean. For about two years I have really been unpleasant to be around most of the time. My perspective was that I needed to get the business to a point that she was satisfied with so that I could quite my real job. I naively believed that everything would be ok when this day would come. I would all of a sudden be nice. I would have time to spend with my wife and my daughter. I would start to exercise and everything would be great. All the while I was taking and taking and depleting my wife's "love bank" until there was nothing left. Now that I have been able to take several steps back I realize that all that negativity has really changed me. I used to be fun. Really fun! I remember laughing and being silly with my wife. We were the same like that and we were really best friends. Now it is hard to shake off all the bitterness and stress and it is really had to be silly like I used to be. I'm so serious now and I hate it. This much more than stings! I truly can not believe I lost that guy so completely. No wounder my wife is so angry. It would ease the pain if I could somehow put more of the blame on my wife for the damage prior to the affair but in all of my soul searching so far I can not. My has "re-write marital history" but only to a degree. Now she is very focused on all of the bad and she devalues any of the good. My DB Coach explained that this is natural while she tries to alleviate her guilt and rationalize her affair. I was trying to hard to remind her of the good times but I realized two weeks ago when reading "the rules" that this was the wrong thing to do.
I really appreciate all your time and support. I'm sure it would be much easier to be help someone who was more of a victim and not someone who could so easily be blamed for my mess. Starsky [/quote]
M-44 W-33 Daughter 7 M-9 D-Day 1 (06/08/2013) texts found D-Day 2 (07/10/2013) more texts found
MWD recommends a "180." He nees to search his heart of hearts, and think about his wife's earlier-in-the-marriage (before her affair) marital complaints, and think about what kind of negative traits he was displaying. I usually only recommend the "strong stance" thing when I see that someone was a classic "Mr. Nice Guy"/pleaser, like I was. If he was GENUINELY a controlling jerk (and that's not just his wife's affair hormones, re-writing their marital history to justify her affair), then he should work hard on learning -- and displaying -- a nicer, calmer, more pleasing personality towards her (while still not condoning her affair).
It all depends on what he was like before. I was "GENUINELY a controlling jerk". Not all the time but definitely in times of conflict or stress. A long time ago I was also fun, funny, nice, and confident. My beautiful wife did want to marry me at one time and it wasn't because I was a jerk. I do have a heap of good qualities that I have not shared.
I immediately started doing 180s before I knew what they were. My early efforts were seen as desperate attempts but I have been consistent with most of the good things that I have done and some of it has come very easily. I have been showing my wife love and respect consistently. Just as I wrote that I was reminded of all of the spying that I have done that was not respectful so I can not say that I have performed this perfectly. I have been listening, not talking down to, and being Nice in general. True, much more to do. I stared working out and this I think has surprised my wife. My attitude has improved but I would not call it great. I am terrible at hiding my emotions and when she pulls away, takes her phone to text him or "leaves early to go to a meeting" it is impossible not to be disappointed and hurt and it shows.
I have an idea for another 180 but would love some feedback. Since I have started to work out I need to alter my diet to get the most out of it. I have not cooked a meal for my wife since our first date but I am thinking about starting to cook per a diet plan that goes with my workout routine. I am thinking about taking over the cooking but not sure how it might be perceived. She works long hours and only cooks about 3-4 meals a week anyway so it seems like a good way to bring consistency to meal times for my daughter and would be healthy for all of us. What do you think?
Starsky [/quote]
M-44 W-33 Daughter 7 M-9 D-Day 1 (06/08/2013) texts found D-Day 2 (07/10/2013) more texts found
And as 25yearsmlc says, she and I hardly EVER agree, so that oughta tell you something, sw.
I have read many of both of your posts and value both perspectives.
Time to start setting some initial boundaries. Starting with the "no texting from our marital home." This will help you learn the basic skills of boundary setting and enforcement (I personally SUKKED at this, as I am a natural "pleaser/rescuer/NiceGuy" type). "Boundaries," by Townsend, is an excellent book on the subject, btw.
I have thought endlessly about his. I definitely need some help doing this the right way. I can't come across as demanding or controlling so fining the right words and attitude has been difficult. When I rehearse what I might do or say in my head it sounds controlling so I have not done anything yet. I am hungry to learn anything I can so I will get the boundaries book with hopes of some guidance.
You have (and most people do) a basic misunderstanding of the difference between BOUNDARIES, and ULTIMATUMS.
I'm going to post two things that might help you. This first one is from an old poster here, Jayne, and it goes like this:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.
If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.
The best way I can answer that is that if you make it about HER, they will come across as "demands" and being "controlling."
If you make them about YOU, and what YOU need, then they are "boundaries of personal integrity."
Example:
"I forbid you to see OM" = CONTROLLING
"I can't live in an open marriage" = BOUNDARY
"You need to check in with me every day, and give me your cellphone bill!" = CONTROLLING
"In order to feel safe in our reconciliation, considering your recent affair, I need to know that you're no longer talking or texting him by having the cellphone bill come to me for awhile" = BOUNDARY
"You can't talk to me that way!" = CONTROLLING
"I like ME too much to allow myself to be spoken to so disrespectfully. Please come back when you've calmed down, and we can talk further." = BOUNDARY
Make sense?
It's also HOW you say it. It should come across as something you HATE to have to even ASK for, and that you'll COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND if she doesn't feel she can do it, but hey -- this is what I need right now. Let me know."
Using the above examples, see if you can come up with a possible way to phrase the "no texting from our marital home" boundary to your wife. Run it by us first.
Sitting in a hotel room 2000 miles from home. Horrible miss her. Even in the bad times she was my best friend. Wish I could call. Wish this nightmare were over. Wish I hadn't been such an ass.
M-44 W-33 Daughter 7 M-9 D-Day 1 (06/08/2013) texts found D-Day 2 (07/10/2013) more texts found
b/c you cannot control yourself, is more of the same. 
