One giant leap forward! - Part 4

[T1000]

Old Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2375281&page=1

[T1000]

Today was the day we were taking the kids to the zoo and last night W and I were going to go out for dinner.

I don't think it went all that well but it did give me (and W) some perspective.

For whatever reason W couldn't get a sitter so we planned to stay in.

I got there early as my appointment beforehand ended up really short (got a speeding fine quashed, yay!). W was at the gym when I got there and her SF was watching the kids.

SF left and I watched the kids. W turned up about an hour or so later. Mood was light and pleasant.
I told W about my brother adopting and us not being able to go to Retrouvaille. She was happy about my brother and disappointed about Retrouvaille.
We discussed what to do for dinner. I offered to get a chinese.
W joked about me sleeping on the sofa. I said I don't plan on sleeping on a sofa. She joked a bit and said she was winding me up.
W fed the kids and I put them to bed. As W was going for a shower I said i was going for a run.
She asked if I was going to pick up the food on the way back. i said no I will order it when I get back and pick it up after my shower.
She said she was hungry. I didn't fancy standing in the takeout for 10-15 mins after a run when I could be showering.
She sort of blew it off and said OK.

Just as I was just about to start my run she text me:
"Don't worry about getting me any dinner. I'll just sort myself out....too hungry to wait."

I had no idea whether she was trying to control me or she wasn't bothered.
I left it and went for my run.
1st time I had done that particular run. Went really well. W gave me her best time beforehand and I managed to beat it by quite a bit.

Got back W as in a good mood (I was expecting negative after the text). She asked how I got on, drying her hair and making her dinner. She asked me if I wanted to watch a movie after dinner and I said yes.
I went for a shower then nipped out to get some food myself. W asked me to get a bottle of wine.

We sat down to watch a movie. We sat fairly close. We had seen it before years ago.

W spent quite a bit on her phone texting. Her friend she met through her sister (only 20 yo) was going on a date and W was worried about her.
Because we never ate together, W was on phone a bit and there wasn't much effort it wasn't what we needed it to be.

At one point we were discussing something about the kids where we had a difference of opinion. W challenged me and it felt just like old (bad) times. I managed to catch myself just before it kicked off. I tapped on her wine glass and said:
"We are not having this discussion at this time of night after you have been drinking."
W lifted her hand up (for a high five). I gave her the high five and she said:
"That's progress."
It was dropped after that.

The night carried on fine for a while.

Just before we were going to bed W got a message from her friend. She was trying to give her friend some advice about the situation she was in. Basically her friend had met a guy and after a really short 1st date she was going to his house for sex, as rough as she could get it.
W mentioned that her friend doesn't want to feel a slut. I mistakenly said that ship had already sailed. It was what I thought but I didn't need to say it. W spewed a little about me judging people and stormed off….to bed.

As I hadn't slept there in months I wasn't comfortable just going to her bedroom and getting in her bed after what happened.
I laid on the sofa for 10-15 minutes contemplating sleeping on the sofa. I decided not to. I thought I'm not leaping here, I'm not just going to get in her bed and I'm not going ask to get in her bed (felt pathetic to do that).
I went upstairs (she was in bed nearly asleep with the light off. I woke her and told her I was going home. I meant it, it would be great to sort it out but I'm not going be controlled like that if that was what she playing at. I walked out into the hall and starting putting my stuff in my bag. W shouted me back and asked why I was leaving. I said I'm not comfortable just getting in her bed after being so long and after what had just happened without being invited.
She asked me to stay and come to bed. I agreed.

We slept with our legs touching most of the night.

I noticed that the kids are different when they are at W's compared to my house. They settle really well at mine, sleep really well. Not so much at W's. I think it might be because I'm very consistent in how I put them to bed etc. where W not so much.

I let W sleep another 30 minutes, she has had the kids for the last 8 days so i didn't mind getting up with them.

In the morning W asked me how I slept. She was in a really good mood. We got ready and went to the zoo.
It should have been great day and it was to a certain extent but it was also hard work and very draining.
After the zoo we dropped the kids of with W's SF. We were going to spend it doing something together but it was only chance for W to get seen about her earache so we sat in the hospital for 45 minutes.
We joked about it being a date, it wasn't in anyway but we did talk about stuff.

I brought up about the going for a run and her being hungry to know what she was really feeling. She said she was disappointed that I would rather spend time going for a run when we planned to spend the evening together. She also said that doesn't want either of us to be telling the other what to do. It wasn't what she wanted but she decided to do her own thing until I was finished, it wasn't ideal but it wasn't a problem.
I liked her change in attitude and how she dealt with it. I admit i didn't give her enough credit.
I said tbh I could have gone for a run in the morning if I wanted one that much. In future if we have made plans I wouldn't do it.


It had been on my mind and rightly or wrongly I asked W if there had been anyone else since we were last together. There wasn't. She has been asked out a lot though.
Out of interest I asked how much does she find flattering and how much does she find just annoying.
She said it's about 98% annoying and 2% flattering. I asked if the 2% flattering was if the person was attractive and the 98% not attractive and she said yes.

W said she finds it hard to know where we are and what she should or should not be doing. She mentioned the whole "1 toe in" thing.She said she doesn't get any attention from me and it doesn't feel like there is anything there. If I'm not interested why wouldn't she go out for drinks with someone else.
I don't know if she used what I asked to force me into a position.

I said that for me personally I'm not dating anyone until I know it's over between us. I also said I'm obviously still more committed to the M than she was and she agreed.

I mentioned that we need to spend time together with no kids and put some effort in. She agreed.

She mentioned on the way out of the hospital that she finds it hard on a day like today to be evenly remotely attracted to me as she is tired and just see's me as the kids F who is helping out. I validated what she was saying and that I felt similar.

I went back to what I had just said but added to it.
We needed to cut back a lot on time together with the kids for now. It needs to be just me and her and doing something fun or lighthearted.
Today and last night we just went back to "normal life mode" and we are nowhere near ready for that yet.
We need to get to a good place before can start stressing out with the kids together. I'm not saying don't do anything but it has to be more about us and less about the kids for a while.
She agreed.

W said we should go out for dinner on Sunday night. I agreed.
I was talking about learning to swim properly and she said maybe I could teach her on a Sunday afternoon as something to do together. I thought that was also a good idea.

I said the it feels like the last day or so has been a bit of a failure but at least we have spoke about important things and we know where to go next. Again she agreed.

We took the kids for dinner. Then I set about leaving. W asked me if i wanted a hug and I said of course then I left.

I messaged her that i got home OK. Not heard anything back and that annoys me but trying not let it get to me.

It has really opened my eyes how important the "me and her" stage stage is before family days or any normal life can occur without causing a backwards step.

It's like time between W and I needs to be built up enough so we are able to get through a family day without it hurting our R.

[sandi2]

Considering everything, I think you did a good job, T. The most attractive thing I thought you said was when you told her you weren't planning to sleep on the couch. Of course, I don't how your tone of voice was, but it was a great answer. Manly and sexy, b/c you weren't hinting or acting needy or standing around waiting to be told what to do. She could take your answer to mean you were going home to your own bed or you planned to be in hers. Either way, good answer.

Maybe you could check with her a few days before your next "alone" plans, to make sure a babysitter was a sure thing. Ic you both have stress with the kids, I'm thinking it may be difficult to get reliable babysitters. Is there any after-hour and weekend day cares there?

One thing I wanted to point out about her not waiting for you to finish your run and then shower and go get food.......I can see her point. I am not one who wait very long for my meal. I don't know if my blood sugar gets a little low, but I don't do well once I get really hungry. It's a family joke that mamma gets mean when she's hungry-(ha).

But she did sound like she was putting a little more effort into you being there. I really think it's b/c you are making positive decisions. When I first started reading your post, I thought "oh no", but as I read it, I could see that she appeared to follow your lead. That is really a good sign, T. She doesn't want you to dictate (as she said, telling each other what to do), but a W will respond to her H's leadership when she feels attracted to him. You didn't come across as sounding like you were bossing, but stepped up and was the leader.

I know it must have be disappointing, but I certainly don't think it was a,wash. Plus, it may have took that time together with the kids to know you two aren't ready.

I am proud of you. I might add, I'm impressed you could hold out on sex again.

[T1000]

Thanks Sandi

Tbh the sex thing wasn't difficult last night.
She was on, both tired, we fell out a bit.
When we were in the bed I had to fight a really big urge to touch her anywhere just feel skin.

She mentioned when we were in the hospital that it's not nice getting turned down and that she realises she has to wait until I'm ready. It felt like part disappointment from her side and part hint.

I will make sure we have a sitter next time.
What are your thoughts on adding some affection mainly when we go out together? At what point am I just being too closed off to her or waiting too long myself.

I feel like I'm asking the same questions again but I want to follow your advice the best I can but also adjust the pace at the right time.

I found that as the time went on I started to lose my "power".
As if i left Tuesday morning from home, feeling great, looking good and brimming with confidence. As the time marched on and we discussed/argued/chatted/dealt with kids, I started to run out.
Like I only had so much and then the old me started to appear again.
Soon as I get home I start to build it back up again.

Maybe that another sign that we (me) aren't ready for so much so soon time wise.

[sandi2]

As if i left Tuesday morning from home, feeling great, looking good and brimming with confidence. As the time marched on and we discussed/argued/chatted/dealt with kids, I started to run out.
Like I only had so much and then the old me started to appear again.

I understand. That is what often happens with a LBS who has to return to the board b/c they fell back into old patterns. I believe the longer a couple has been in a M that had bad behavior from either or both sides, the easier it is to back slide. But that isn't to say it's hopeless. It takes longer and perhaps more consistent positive actions to mke it, but it can be done if both sides want it badly enough. You know, starting a new R is so much easier than repairing the old one that has battle fatigue. But that is another reason I say that the WAS needs to really work to get the LBS back again.

Once you two actually get some alone time without you kids, I think a little affection would be fine. IMHO, having some dates and showing affection should come before just hopping in bed and having sex. Being flirtatious, affectionate, and romantic should come before sex. And for "most" women, making love to her mind is the best foreplay in the world. In other words, you use her love language to speak to her, long before taking her to bed. In your case, maybe an extra long time. (ha- jk)

Since your W has shown bad behavior in recent times, I think you might judge how much, if any, affection would be given. To me, it seems logical not to make love if your S has treated you badly that week, day, or the evening you're out together. If she doesn't feel well or in a bad mood, I don't think it is the time to be lovie-dovie. I am thinking like a woman, not a man. It may be more difficult for some guys to define when is or isn't a good time. Just keep remembering the goal is not to have sex, but to R the M.

Now, I don't know if your W's LL is physical affection, but she clearly wants it. It doesn't have to be her primary LL in order to desire sex. However, you have said she had some sort of childhood issues, and if she relates "love" with having sex only, then she may take the "rejection" (as she called it) more personally. It may be more difficult for her to understand what your true purpose is, when you turn her down. I'm not suggesting you take off tonight to head for her house....but you may consider if you need to "remind" her that it's not that you don't find her physically attractive, but that you want to see more growth in the R, first. You may have to tell her these things long distance.

I really do believe it has helped in getting her more interested and maybe to put forth more effort than she has in the past.

Ah, timing.........the key to many things.

[T1000]

As if i left Tuesday morning from home, feeling great, looking good and brimming with confidence. As the time marched on and we discussed/argued/chatted/dealt with kids, I started to run out.
Like I only had so much and then the old me started to appear again.

I understand. That is what often happens with a LBS who has to return to the board b/c they fell back into old patterns. I believe the longer a couple has been in a M that had bad behavior from either or both sides, the easier it is to back slide. But that isn't to say it's hopeless. It takes longer and perhaps more consistent positive actions to mke it, but it can be done if both sides want it badly enough. You know, starting a new R is so much easier than repairing the old one that has battle fatigue. But that is another reason I say that the WAS needs to really work to get the LBS back again.

Repairing a relationship is much harder. Lets face it a new R isn't even work, it just flows.
W is less invested right now than she was 1-2 weeks ago. I know it's mind-reading but my lack of attention to her is leaving her feeling unwanted.

Once you two actually get some alone time without you kids, I think a little affection would be fine. IMHO, having some dates and showing affection should come before just hopping in bed and having sex. Being flirtatious, affectionate, and romantic should come before sex. And for "most" women, making love to her mind is the best foreplay in the world. In other words, you use her love language to speak to her, long before taking her to bed. In your case, maybe an extra long time. (ha- jk)

This is something I brought up but forgot to mention. I said to her as much as I would like to have sex and it would be easy to do that. I wanted to get close to her and for that to lead to sex. She said she understood.

Since your W has shown bad behavior in recent times, I think you might judge how much, if any, affection would be given. To me, it seems logical not to make love if your S has treated you badly that week, day, or the evening you're out together. If she doesn't feel well or in a bad mood, I don't think it is the time to be lovie-dovie. I am thinking like a woman, not a man. It may be more difficult for some guys to define when is or isn't a good time. Just keep remembering the goal is not to have sex, but to R the M.

We spent just over 24 hours together, she was on, had earache and we were stressed out. It wasn't a time for lovie-dovie but that also meant that we spent 24 hours together with very little to no affection or fun between us and I think that is a negative right now.
For our date on Sunday, she will be at the very end of her period, may or may not still have earache. Is it worth giving affection and being knocked back than to hold back just in case it isn't the right time?

Now, I don't know if your W's LL is physical affection, but she clearly wants it. It doesn't have to be her primary LL in order to desire sex. However, you have said she had some sort of childhood issues, and if she relates "love" with having sex only, then she may take the "rejection" (as she called it) more personally. It may be more difficult for her to understand what your true purpose is, when you turn her down. I'm not suggesting you take off tonight to head for her house....but you may consider if you need to "remind" her that it's not that you don't find her physically attractive, but that you want to see more growth in the R, first. You may have to tell her these things long distance.

I really do believe it has helped in getting her more interested and maybe to put forth more effort than she has in the past.

Ah, timing.........the key to many things.

She is more willing to adjust tan ever before especially if I lead it.

We both did 5LL last year when we were getting on. Mine and hers was mainly WOA and then Quality Time.

I think she's finds it hard if I'm not lusting after her.
When you say long distance do you via text/email? I wish I knew what you meant then I would understand the wink.

She has mentioned that she wants to hear from me how pretty I think she is etc. I have held back on that as it would have been very pursuing.

I feel like I should be telling her how I feel sometimes and not worry about the rejection in the moment and have no expectations after the fact.

[lovethehub]

T,

Even though the date and the time together didn't go as planned, I agree with Sandi2 that it wasn't all a wash. You learned a few things, you had some honest conversation with W, you didn't sit around waiting and wondering what to do and you realized how much work you still have to do without getting freaked out about it. Great job!

Your W is telling you she needs to feel love from you, Sandi2 is right that you can show her some affection. Don't go overboard to the point where it seems phony or forced, but do what comes natural. Definitely on dates, and if you are with the kids hold her hand, touch her back, tell her how pretty she looks, etc. In order for her to be able to reconnect with you, she needs to get what she needs too.

Sounds like you are on the right path

[sandi2]

"W is less invested right now than she was 1-2 weeks ago"

Why do you think she is less invested? B/c you haven't had sex with her?

"For our date on Sunday, she will be at the very end of her period, may or may not still have earache. Is it worth giving affection and being knocked back than to hold back just in case it isn't the right time?"

When you use the word "affection", what exactly do you mean? When you say it may not be the right time, that makes me wonder if "affection" to you means having sex. To me, affection can be any positive touch (as LTH gave examples). If you start with something that isn't putting a lot of pressure on the outcome of the date, then there shouldn't be a large concern about being knocked down. For example, when the two of you start to enter or leave some place, touch the small of her back as you walk beside her. If you can sit close to her, then do it. Touch her arm, stroke her hair, take your finger and outline the shape of her mouth, sit with one arm over her back/shoulder, lean in to whisper something in her ear, etc. But I suggest you don't start out by reaching for the more intimate areas of her body. Those areas need to be left alone until a later time when you see how things go, at the very least...the first date. You won't be ignoring her if you do these other type of touches. When a M couple stop having these non-sexual touches, that.is the beginning of trouble. I think most women need these type of touches. Start with the less complex firs

[sandi2]

sorry, accidentally hit submit.

[T1000]

T,

Even though the date and the time together didn't go as planned, I agree with Sandi2 that it wasn't all a wash. You learned a few things, you had some honest conversation with W, you didn't sit around waiting and wondering what to do and you realized how much work you still have to do without getting freaked out about it. Great job!

Your W is telling you she needs to feel love from you, Sandi2 is right that you can show her some affection. Don't go overboard to the point where it seems phony or forced, but do what comes natural. Definitely on dates, and if you are with the kids hold her hand, touch her back, tell her how pretty she looks, etc. In order for her to be able to reconnect with you, she needs to get what she needs too.

Sounds like you are on the right path

Thanks LTH!