How to proceed with angry, almost-walkaway H?

[MrBond]

"Recently, he told me that he's noticed the changes in me, but he still feels scared -- he asked me not to hug/kiss/touch him. Not yet.

How do I meet his top 2 needs for affection and sexual fulfillment when right now he doesn't want me to touch him??"

What have you been doing together?

"
End-May: He called OW during our trip. She asked about me and he admitted that I was travelling with him. Feeling betrayed, she sent him a goodbye email.

OW: In these 3 months, we've been through many ups and downs. There were several times we should have already said goodbye. I'm not in the right position. I should have disappeared. Goodbye.
H: I'm sorry to put you through this roller coaster. Travelling with her doesn't change how I feel for you. Right now, I am only waiting for the time to do what I want to do.
OW: Okay…
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I was in pieces… Reading the emails, I sensed that OW is very needy and craves the attention and support from H -- She's all alone working in a foreign country. But she's at least mature enough to step back every so often to say "This is wrong".

So in desperation, I texted OW and asked her to stop contacting H. She replied that she'd decided to stop anyway. Afterwards, I regretted contacting her. In time, H may realise for himself that she's not for him (or he may not), but I prevented him from going on that journey… Now I won't know if he's with me because he WANTS to be with me.

Those few days after her goodbye were torture. Every fiber of my being was in pain but I had to pretend that I didn't know. As for him, I've never seen him look more miserable.

What should I do now??

1. Why does DB discourage confrontation? Could someone please explain? Should I continue to pretend that I don't know?"

In your H's position, I'm not sure if it would do any good. When was the last correspondence? After you contacted the OW, I'm pretty sure she told your H and that it shook her up. That's why he seems miserable.

"2. I'm utterly torn between the Retrouvaille method (more communication, connection) and DB (no R talk, more space). On one hand, the Retrouvaille dialogues are useful (it gives me a chance to "hear" him out -- he's said many times that I don't listen to him)."

Did your H ever tell you about the OW?

"3. His attitude
We have good days but he's been increasingly distant and indifferent."

This is just you being more sensitive than normal. In the past if he didn't respond, you might have blown it off. Don't worry about this.

"4. At this point, I'm very tempted to ask for a short separation, so that he'll hopefully miss me and change his attitude. But I know I shouldn't make that move."

Don't ever do this as a ploy. He may use the time to contact the OW more.

"5. As long as the WAS stays home, how can I give him adequate SPACE?"

What did he ask you for?

How much changing have you done and what EXACTLY have you changed?

[AnotherStander]

I was in pieces… Reading the emails

You should really quit snooping, your H will find out if he hasn't already and all it will make him do is go deeper with his EA. He'll change his passwords, create separate email accounts, maybe even get a secret phone. He'll do what it takes to hide his activities from you.

I sensed that OW is very needy and craves the attention and support from H -- She's all alone working in a foreign country. But she's at least mature enough to step back every so often to say "This is wrong".

I agree, and as such, this affair is doomed. It just will not work out. But you shouldn't have intervened, because that often has the opposite effect of what the LBS intends. It often drives the WAS and affair partner closer together. And it makes them think the LBS is crazy. It will unite them against you.

Afterwards, I regretted contacting her. In time, H may realise for himself that she's not for him (or he may not), but I prevented him from going on that journey… Now I won't know if he's with me because he WANTS to be with me.

Exactly. Keep this in mind so you don't make the same mistake again in the future.

What should I do now??

Quit snooping! No more confrontations either. Just pull back and give your H time and space to think things through. Work on yourself.

If the EA resumes, should I expose them? I came across advice (eg Allen from here, Dr Harvey of MB) that are pro-exposure.

DB'ing is not, so you have to decide for yourself if you're going to follow DB'ing or another approach. Don't try to mix and match, some people have tried that and it doesn't work out well.

2. I'm utterly torn between the Retrouvaille method (more communication, connection) and DB (no R talk, more space).

I think it was too soon for RetroV, your H is not committed to making the M work as can be seen by his actions.

But dialogues (and the "discussions" that sometimes follow) go against the concept of giving him space.

DB'ing is NOT about not having discussions. It is about not INITIATING relationship discussions. But it IS about being a great listener. If your H talks, then you listen, and be the greatest possible listener. RetroV teaches validation techniques that you should put into heavy use in communications with your H.

Me: What would you like to do tomorrow (Sunday)? / or What shall we have for dinner?

THAT is what you shouldn't be doing. That is pursuit.

How do I respond to this attitude? So far I've replied sweetly with suggestions "How about abc…", after all, I'm supposed to show nothing but happiness and contentment, right?

You are supposed to show happiness and contentment in YOUR life, not in your pursuit of him. You need to detach from him!

[maji]

Hi Mr Bond, AnotherStander,

I really appreciate your support. Oops, I didn't realise that asking him what he wants for dinner is considered "pursuit". Makes me wonder what else I'm doing wrong. But isn't it odd if I just start making dinner without asking him? Should I say "I feel like abc tonight. Is that ok with you?"

Here are the answers to your questions.

>> What have you been doing together?
We spend most of our free time together like before BD, doing everyday things -- groceries, cooking, playing games, going to restaurants/ movies/ art galleries/ events around town etc. The difference is he's been glum and sullen these 2 weeks since OW's goodbye -- mostly silence, apathy and one-word answers from him. So I've been pulling back. I let him initiate conversations (no pursuit, right?). Eg he becomes chatty when watching TV shows or comedies, and he'll try to engage me.

It's a struggle to figure out how to go about activities on my own without "abandoning" him because we have many common interests. I'll probably sign up for some classes on some weeknights, but for weekends… I'm lost... Any ideas???

>> When was the last correspondence? After you contacted the OW, I'm pretty sure she told your H and that it shook her up. That's why he seems miserable.

She emailed goodbye on 24 May, and he naturally followed with "please don't leave me". Since then, he's texted her twice to try to reconnect (no response from her). But honestly, I have no access to his work PC so I don't know if they've resumed contact since then.

>> But you shouldn't have intervened, because that often has the opposite effect of what the LBS intends.

Yes, you're absolutely right. It was a rash, desperate, stupid move. At this point, I've decided to detach from their EA. Let them ride their own rollercoaster.

>> You should really quit snooping

Yeah, you're right. I must. But it's really, really tough not to check his phone. In a way, I'm glad I saw those emails because I now know where I stand, and it has helped me give up wondering/hoping. I can move on now.

>> Did your H ever tell you about the OW?

Not voluntarily. I confronted him (calmly) a few days after BD after stumbling across texts on his phone. He grudgingly admitted that he's been pursuing her via texts since Feb (BD was mid-Mar) and that he has no remorse. He said he's physically attracted to her and felt a "connection", even though he hardly knew her at that time. Oddly enough, she reminds me of me. Sigh...

>>> We have good days but he's been increasingly distant and indifferent."
>> This is just you being more sensitive than normal.

Ummm, I doubt that I'm reading too much into it. His behavior these 2 weeks:
stopped smiling except when watching comedies, stopped saying hello when he comes back, stopped calling me from work, sleeps an awful lot, no interest in eating, gives mostly one-word answers, animosity in his tone. He wasn't like this before OW left. The silence and tension has been growing these 2 weeks.

There're signs that he's getting ready to move out. He's not putting his clothes away in their right spot -- instead, there's a growing stack of carefully folded clothes in the wardrobe. But I recognise that the only thing I can do is work on myself and leave him to his own misery. If he tells me that he wants to move out, I will tell him that I understand and I support his decision.

>>> "5. As long as the WAS stays home, how can I give him adequate SPACE?"
>> What did he ask you for?

After BD, he said he wanted time and space. "Let me deal with it my way." He's ok with me seeing a C, and sleeping in the same bed, but he asked that I don't touch him in any way, not even hand-holding or hugs. Since then, I've stopped saying ILY, avoided R talks (except through RetroV dialogues, which seemed to help), stopped all talk of any future for us.

>> How much changing have you done and what EXACTLY have you changed?

180s I've had success with:
Be calm no matter what happens
Be more decisive -- work in progress!
Say what I want instead of having others guess
Not get upset when my buttons are pushed
Not persuade H to let me have my way
Stopped being critical/ blaming H when he messes up
Compliment, affirm H often
Not spend so much time on the internet
Be on time

Things I've decided to do but have not had much practice:
Trusting other people to do things right -- not do it for them
Not always needing to have the "best"
Wake up early
Spend more time with my family and close friends


<< you have to decide for yourself if you're going to follow DB'ing or another approach. Don't try to mix and match, some people have tried that and it doesn't work out well.

Thanks for pointing it out. I need to read up more before I decide for sure. Could you briefly summarise what went wrong for those mix n match cases that didn't work out?

Right now, I'm leaning towards DB-ing since the core principles makes more sense to me. I just need more guidance on how to apply the concepts in daily life. Can anyone point out a few successful women who were in similar stiches? I'm now reading up on SDSoundGirl's story. Inspirational.

[maji]

Yesterday, H didn't even say hello when he came back. He just nodded when I said hello. Sigh.... More and more silence every day. To think that 3 weeks ago, we were still joking and chatting on holiday. I'm feeling discouraged. It seems that the more I keep quiet and pull back, the more distant and sullen he gets!

One of his complaints was that I ignored him when I get hooked on the Internet. So I'm caught in a catch-22: a) give him space = more of the same; b) initiate conversation = pressure or pursuit. Help, somebody....

I'm trying to detach but it's frustrating not knowing how to respond to his non- response or one-word answers. Again, he only started behaving this way in the last 2 weeks, after OW left.

[dwm2013]

Hi maji,
I feel so sad reading your posts as I completely understand how you feel. It is so difficult when the spouse is so distant and withdrawn. As for what you said about your H complaining you ignored him when you are on the Internet but yet he wants space, I get the frustration too. Cadet wrote on my post to keep up the db and that it will work as who wouldn't want to be with someone who has changed for the best through db.

[maji]

H is sick. Will it be considered pursuit if I show concern or nurse him?

[maji]

Help! H just gave me the "I can't do this anymore. I want to move out" speech. He said despite my changes he does not feel the "spark" and it's awkward to still stay together when he doesn't have feelings for me. What do I do next?

I think it surprised him that I was calm throughout and told him that I understand and support his decision. He asked, "So what should we do now?", to which I replied, "It's not for me to say. I'll cross the bridge when I get to it. Just know that I see many options for us, but if you think this is the only way, I support you."

But I backslid slightly afterwards when:
- I asked him to tell me everything he's unhappy with about our relationship -- issues that he didn't list on BD day.
- I said (calmly) that I understand how he feels but I'm disappointed that he didn't give our M the one chance that I asked for. (he said he gave me many chances in his head before BD - typical WAS)
- I asked to be treated with respect from now on b/c I'm hurt by his behaviour the past month (mean and cold). He apologised and said ok.
- Finally, I asked if he's still in contact with OW. That's when he raised his voice and said "No, I'm not. I knew you'd mention her. Do you have proof!?" Although I was very tempted to confront him with all the evidence I have, I didn't push it and walked away.

Argh... Hope I didn't ruin everything with my questions... I need advice on what to do next:

1. Do I do the LRT immediately or should I continue to DB? It will take him some time to find a place, he said.

2. Part of me want to guilt him into giving us a real shot, without OW in the picture. But I shouldn't apply any pressure, right?

[maji]

3. I'm financially dependant on him b/c I'm not working right now -- am looking for work. Most of my money (and his) is in our joint account. My worry is that he'll stop supporting me and/or transfer the bulk to his own a/c. I'm tempted to make the first move and transfer half of the joint a/c to my own a/c. But in doing so I may antagonise him b/c he'll think I don't trust him. Any advice??? Right now, I don't know if I can trust him.

[MrBond]

"Help! H just gave me the "I can't do this anymore. I want to move out" speech. He said despite my changes he does not feel the "spark" and it's awkward to still stay together when he doesn't have feelings for me. What do I do next?"

Of course he doesn't have any feelings for you. He's "in love" with OW. Right now just give him to her. That's what he wants.

"I think it surprised him that I was calm throughout and told him that I understand and support his decision."

Don't ever say that you support his decision. YOu know it's wrong and it's not what validation is all about. You "understand" that he has a right to feel the way he does, but YOU don't have to support it.

"Just know that I see many options for us, but if you think this is the only way, I support you."

Again, stop saying that you support his bad decision. He has to understand that it is all on him. If you keep saying you support him it makes it sound like he's free to do whatever he wants to because you "support" him.

-" I asked to be treated with respect from now on b/c I'm hurt by his behaviour the past month (mean and cold). He apologised and said ok."

Next time don't "ask". Flat out tell him that you will be treated with respect.

"- Finally, I asked if he's still in contact with OW. That's when he raised his voice and said "No, I'm not. I knew you'd mention her. Do you have proof!?" Although I was very tempted to confront him with all the evidence I have, I didn't push it and walked away. "

You should have told him "yes I do" and then walk away.

[maji]

Wow, that was quick, Mr Bond. Gosh, I had no idea that I wasn't supposed to say "support"... that seemed to be what everyone else (on the forum) said to their S. I thought I was "opening the cage". Oh no... And I said it 3 or 4 times!!! Argh...

So from now on, I'll say: I understand; I'm sorry you feel that way; It's not what I prefer but I respect your needs. Those are ok, right?

>> Although I was very tempted to confront him with all the evidence I have, I didn't push it and walked away. "

You should have told him "yes I do" and then walk away.

Oh...I thought I wasn't supposed to confront him about OW? I'm worried that I'll push him further away if I guilt him about his lies.

I do want to tell him he never intended to give our M a chance, that he only pretended to try while carrying on behind my back with her. It's just that the mood will turn very sour after that. Right now, we're still kind of friendly. I thought DB advice is to keep being the WAS's "friend" and PMA/GAL while they're crazy?

I can still tell him tomorrow. But is there any point in telling him I know about his communication with OW?
- So that I can guilt him into really trying for our M? --> Slim chance. He doesn't want to.
- So that he can feel ashamed? --> Will it help my case? I don't know...
- So that he'll know that I spied on him? --> Makes me more of the "enemy" doesn't it...?

So at this stage, should I confront or not? Maybe I should just give him to her now and pray that he'll come back?

Do I switch to the LRT or continue to DB while he's here?