Charting a New Course

[25yearsmlc]

I don't know if there is any headway here at our home or not. I had started trying to show affection through physical touch. I thought that it was having some effect for the better, but maybe not.

We have ML 3 times in the past 2 weeks. That is an improvement. However, I don't know if she is just using that as a tool to placate me or not.

Do you radiate self doubt after you are intimate? I mean, why can't you see it as a positive and stop reading into something negative? It will show and can become a self fulfilling prophecy.


Last night, we had an argument over the time that the kids were going to bed. She had taken our youngest out for a day with just her. Our youngest goes to bed at 20:00 and they came walking in the door at 21:10. My wife then started to chastise me for not having the oldest in bed yet. Our oldest goes to bed at 20:30.

I don't know what tone she used, but you use the word "chastise" and then you say she "attacked" you. Seems like a really big reaction instead of calmly stating your case and NOT listening to her IF she was actually attacking.

Is there any way she can give you feedback that is not complimentary, that you can receive or does it always escalate? IF SO, WHY?

I had asked my oldest if she wanted to watch a movie with me, figuring that we could spend time together while my wife was out. I told my wife she had no reason to attack me for it. She was in violation of the very same rule that she was penalizing me for violating. If it was ok for them, then I shouldn't be listening to her attacking me over this.


this^^ seems reasonable to SAY to her ONCE and then drop it...but then I read on...


I admit that I was ready to engage in a fight.

sounds like you were spoiling for it BECAUSE she did not wear her ring...so it had nothing to do with showing her you have a backbone.

If you really want to show her THAT, then address the real issue bothering you...

otherwise it's just more passive aggressive lashing out about things NOT truly at issue and

conflict avoidance of what is really bothering you. So you are not showing her a backbone by still avoiding the thing that really hurts...


.


I have turned the other cheek for so long that I feel she thinks I have no backbone. What triggered my anger was that when she had come back in from her day out, I saw she had removed her ring again. It appears that what she does is wear it around me and remove it when I am not with her. Within 10 minutes of coming home she had put it back on.


instead of telling her THAT^^^, you pretended you were angry about her "attacking" you for the daughter's bedtimes,

so now THEY can feel dragged into the fighting now, and maybe feel responsible for it too...


not good


Obviously, her conduct erodes any trace of trust that I have in her. This past week, I have been VERY tempted to place keylogging software on her computer.

STOP THIS^^^ CRAZY TALK now...it's weirder and more harmful than regular snooping. WTF is your goal?

NOTHING GOOD can come of this!! You are spiraling now and you need some professional help.

Nothing to be ashamed of to need help,

but you have to get it...NOW





She spends an inordinate amount of time on it and is always very nebulous about what she does there. She still doesn't share information about her her day's activities with me.

She does not want to share that with you. Wrap your brain around that. Get a life of your own and stop needing to know where she is or what SHE is doing in order for YOU to function...

it's too needy and it makes her responsible for how you feel, which is wrong and unhealthy.

Get a grip.

I have resisted every temptation that I have had. I HAVE been successful at this.

Really? Like when? Like losing your temper BECAUSE she did not have her wedding ring on but you pretended it was about something else..??

I can only imagine what temptations you have not given in to, but keep at it. Don't backslide...you will regret it.

25's advice to GAL is the tool I need to use for this. 25 was also talking about how we all need to get to the point where we are ready to walk away ourselves.

I don't need any of this Sh!t. I'm ready to start living my life without her. I don't deserve this treatment and I certainly think I will be much better off without her if this is all I have to look forward to if we remain together.

well IF it really is all you have left to look forward to, then NO it doesn't sound like much.

GAL is NOT to get the WAS to notice anything about you.

It's NOT about them. It's ALL about you. Paradoxically it MIGHT spark some interest in you, on their end...but it cannot be the goal. If getting them to notice you is the goal

then it's a tactic to get her back, NOT a real or lasting change in you.

To ME, GAL means many things...such as

Discovering things you always wanted to do, or rediscovering things you stopped doing.

Exploring areas of interest in classes, activities, doing NEW hobbies, meeting people is KEY for sure. IMO, It's mandatory. New interests are in some ways better, b/c they do not remind you of the WAS.

A lot of what you wrote for GAL didn't sound super social to me, but more like solo activities, or with one friend, but if they are more social, great.

You clearly need more people in your life, esp people who do NOT KNOW your wife.

You do this because one of two things is going to happen.

1) your wife might not ever even look at wanting to come back...she may be gone for good.

So if you move on and GAL, the sooner you do it, the sooner you'll be happier in your new life.

OR

2) she may, for whatever reason, become interested enough in the new you, to take a look and wonder --

if marriage to you can be better/different than before.

GAL makes sure of it.

We only know one thing for sure.

She won't return and commit UNLESS

she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.

So how are YOU SHOWING her that it can be better/different?

by snooping? By arguing? By lashing out and deflecting in the arguments because what is really bothering you, is not what you are talking about...

What if you just became the best you, possible?

What if you became a man that only a fool would leave?

[cbtdad]

25,
I always enjoy reading your posts. Even though so much of it is tough to swallow it is true and hits a nerve with me at least.

[Pathfinder2]

[quote=Pathfinder2]I don't know if there is any headway here at our home or not. I had started trying to show affection through physical touch. I thought that it was having some effect for the better, but maybe not.

We have ML 3 times in the past 2 weeks. That is an improvement. However, I don't know if she is just using that as a tool to placate me or not.

Do you radiate self doubt after you are intimate? I mean, why can't you see it as a positive and stop reading into something negative? It will show and can become a self fulfilling prophecy.


I don't think that I radiate self doubt after intimacy. The reason I say this is because I was thinking those thoughts a few days afterwards because of her subsequent coldness towards me over a period of days.

Last night, we had an argument over the time that the kids were going to bed. She had taken our youngest out for a day with just her. Our youngest goes to bed at 20:00 and they came walking in the door at 21:10. My wife then started to chastise me for not having the oldest in bed yet. Our oldest goes to bed at 20:30.

I don't know what tone she used, but you use the word "chastise" and then you say she "attacked" you. Seems like a really big reaction instead of calmly stating your case and NOT listening to her IF she was actually attacking.

Is there any way she can give you feedback that is not complimentary, that you can receive or does it always escalate? IF SO, WHY?

Most often, I receive her criticism without defending myself. I listen, and if I agree, I say so. If I disagree, I usually don't say much at all for to do so causes her to get irritated with me. This time, I said what I did because I really didn't care what the result would be. You are correct. I was irritated by her selective wearing of her ring. I didn't mention the ring because I felt it would make me appear whiney and needy.

I had asked my oldest if she wanted to watch a movie with me, figuring that we could spend time together while my wife was out. I told my wife she had no reason to attack me for it. She was in violation of the very same rule that she was penalizing me for violating. If it was ok for them, then I shouldn't be listening to her attacking me over this.


this^^ seems reasonable to SAY to her ONCE and then drop it...but then I read on...

I should have made my point and then disengaged. It was my poor choice to keep responding to her attacks when she kept after me. Her refusal to own any responsibility for what was going on made me angry as well.


I admit that I was ready to engage in a fight.

sounds like you were spoiling for it BECAUSE she did not wear her ring...so it had nothing to do with showing her you have a backbone.

If you really want to show her THAT, then address the real issue bothering you...

otherwise it's just more passive aggressive lashing out about things NOT truly at issue and

conflict avoidance of what is really bothering you. So you are not showing her a backbone by still avoiding the thing that really hurts...


.
All of this is true.

I have turned the other cheek for so long that I feel she thinks I have no backbone. What triggered my anger was that when she had come back in from her day out, I saw she had removed her ring again. It appears that what she does is wear it around me and remove it when I am not with her. Within 10 minutes of coming home she had put it back on.


instead of telling her THAT^^^, you pretended you were angry about her "attacking" you for the daughter's bedtimes,

so now THEY can feel dragged into the fighting now, and maybe feel responsible for it too...


not good


I WAS angry about her attacking me for something she felt she was allowed to do. I felt treated as a child. My irritation with her not wearing the ring fueled my anger.

Obviously, her conduct erodes any trace of trust that I have in her. This past week, I have been VERY tempted to place keylogging software on her computer.

STOP THIS^^^ CRAZY TALK now...it's weirder and more harmful than regular snooping. WTF is your goal?

NOTHING GOOD can come of this!! You are spiraling now and you need some professional help.

Nothing to be ashamed of to need help,

but you have to get it...NOW


I have NOT bugged the computer or done anything else like that. I was venting. You are correct that I need to talk to someone. In fact, I have obtained a list of counselors for further work on me and my situation.



She spends an inordinate amount of time on it and is always very nebulous about what she does there. She still doesn't share information about her her day's activities with me.

She does not want to share that with you. Wrap your brain around that. Get a life of your own and stop needing to know where she is or what SHE is doing in order for YOU to function...

it's too needy and it makes her responsible for how you feel, which is wrong and unhealthy.

Get a grip.

I have resisted every temptation that I have had. I HAVE been successful at this.

Really? Like when? Like losing your temper BECAUSE she did not have her wedding ring on but you pretended it was about something else..??

I can only imagine what temptations you have not given in to, but keep at it. Don't backslide...you will regret it.

The "every temptation" referred to my thoughts of snooping. The last time I snooped was at the end of last summer. That was at the beginning of this big mess we are in.

25's advice to GAL is the tool I need to use for this. 25 was also talking about how we all need to get to the point where we are ready to walk away ourselves.

I don't need any of this Sh!t. I'm ready to start living my life without her. I don't deserve this treatment and I certainly think I will be much better off without her if this is all I have to look forward to if we remain together.

well IF it really is all you have left to look forward to, then NO it doesn't sound like much.

GAL is NOT to get the WAS to notice anything about you.

It's NOT about them. It's ALL about you. Paradoxically it MIGHT spark some interest in you, on their end...but it cannot be the goal. If getting them to notice you is the goal

then it's a tactic to get her back, NOT a real or lasting change in you.

To ME, GAL means many things...such as

Discovering things you always wanted to do, or rediscovering things you stopped doing.

Exploring areas of interest in classes, activities, doing NEW hobbies, meeting people is KEY for sure. IMO, It's mandatory. New interests are in some ways better, b/c they do not remind you of the WAS.

A lot of what you wrote for GAL didn't sound super social to me, but more like solo activities, or with one friend, but if they are more social, great.

You clearly need more people in your life, esp people who do NOT KNOW your wife.

You do this because one of two things is going to happen.

1) your wife might not ever even look at wanting to come back...she may be gone for good.

So if you move on and GAL, the sooner you do it, the sooner you'll be happier in your new life.

OR

2) she may, for whatever reason, become interested enough in the new you, to take a look and wonder --

if marriage to you can be better/different than before.

GAL makes sure of it.

We only know one thing for sure.

She won't return and commit UNLESS

she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.

So how are YOU SHOWING her that it can be better/different?

by snooping? By arguing? By lashing out and deflecting in the arguments because what is really bothering you, is not what you are talking about...

I usually do not lash out at her in an argument. In fact, if there is anything that she would call an argument, it would probably be me saying something which she disagrees with and then she pours out her anger, frustration or disdain and I listen and either agree that I was that way, or I say nothing because I don't agree with her and I do not want to fuel her fire.

What if you just became the best you, possible?

What if you became a man that only a fool would leave?

Not really sure who that man is. I know how to be myself. I am the guy she was attracted to in the first place. I know I am not perfect. I am making changes. Maybe not as quickly or as easily as she would like, but I have made adjustments. I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say the change has to be something I want in myself and not something that she wants me to be. However, I still need to be true to myself. I am trying to find out how to be true to me and yet accommodate her desires as well.

25, thank you for taking the time to reply to my thread. Many times, I am tempted to just walk away. That temptation happens when I am fixated on what she has said to me or how she has treated me.

I will continue to search out ways to get involved with others, build new friendships and GAL.

[Pathfinder2]

Sandi2, do you have a list of WAW's here on this board? I would like to read their stories as well. Thank you for supporting us here.

I've been struggling in my situation. I think that there have been improvements, but my wife's underlying anger and distrust of me still are heavily present. I really don't know if we will make it or not.

To be truthful, I still look to her to determine my mood. I am working on GAL.

How did you come up with your 37rules?

[sandi2]

Hummm, no I don't have a list of the WAW's. There use to be a forum just for the WAW's that was suppose to be a "safe place" for them to post, and now it's for WAS's. However, a lot of people who post are from LBS. It is rare to see a WAW post, and I have NEVER seen a WAH post!

How did you come up with your 37rules?

Reading Michele's DR and other material, and my own personal experience as a WAW who was in an EA. I was trying to help a LBH one day and just started listing things he should do and not do. It started getting passed around the board and somebody referred to it as Sandi's 37 Rules. You can tell it was one of those on the spur of the moment things b/c (1)they aren't organized, and (2)if I had taken time to think it out, there would have been a lot more than just 37! I say that b/c in times past, I was know to write rather lengthy posts.

Thanks for being interested.

[Grizz]

Hey PF, haven't heard from you in a while. How are things?

[hotwheelsaust]

So Sandi, when are you going to add the extra rules to the 37 then?

[25yearsmlc]

So Sandi, when are you going to add the extra rules to the 37 then?

I gave some thought to this exact question. I felt a few things needed adding but then, I Tried not to overhaul them either.

Since Sandi mentions its' origins, there are a few redundancies. Then again, she was pouring out advice on the spur of the moment.

And in truth,

maybe the redundancies need to be there to hammer the points home more. Like GAL is major...so is changing the focus to YOU...which is why it's said in more than one way.

I'm sure it could continue to grow, it's now up to Forty points.

An abbreviated form for each person to cull for themselves might be a good idea ONCE you really grasp them all. BEAR IN MIND that not pursuing is a theme but it's NOT 100% applicable. You have to know your sitch...

I myself carried around 5 rules for myself, and two "mantras" that helped me. I needed reminders to get thru the tough times that were so confusing to me.

Also put some audio self help books on my Ipod AND some up lifting music

and some words of my own, on the self record button.

You can either give yourself the two minute pep talk OR

the calm down before he calls, talk...

Turning it over to God (ie "God, I turn this pain/anger/marriage over to You")

was the main thing I told myself, out loud, to do when I thought h would call. OR when I would start to freak out. I did it in the shower, sometimes a hundred times...just to make sure the kids didn't hear me. But it does sink in.

By thinking it, saying it and hearing myself say it, I FELT IT and yes it helped... it did calm me down.


OKAY so


The 37 40 (and growing) List

These are "Rules" for newcomers assembled/organized & consisting of principles based on MWD's Div Busting approach.

I think Sandi organized them for someone. They are SLIGHTLY edited, or added to, by yours truly. Feel free to suggest others.

I recommend you copy and paste & print it out.

Carry it in your pocket if you have to. For several months, I know I did.

I highlighted the ones I carrried around with me on a card (after having the entire list with me for a month, I knew most of it stemmed from the ones I highlighted)..& that's what worked for me.

FOR WHEN YOU GET "THE BOMB"….

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then, don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) In short, NO Snooping.

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)


12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne/perfume, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, do 180s… (so if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her to initiate), then be rather scarce or minimal with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short & simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! (No matter what time he/she comes home.) You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy YOUR life and time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life too.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.


18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it. The supposed changes will look like "tactics" to get them back & then they won't believe the changes are lasting.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive & fun to be with. (As hard as this is, remember that angry, sad, pouting people do NOT ATTRACT others to them). The FUN somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Never lose your temper! (That reinforces their choice to leave). Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight. Drop the anger or you'll fuel their desire to leave! You are trying to undermine it!

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill or be over the top in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient……VERY, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do NOT interrupt them when they are speaking, OR correct them, and stop what you may be working on or doing, to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying. (Listening better never hurts.)

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell). Silence can be the loving thing to "not say."

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Calmness is soothing to the calm person AND their "audience". Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only, NOT your spouse. The more you tell them what you are doing (or trying to show them) the more your actions will seem manipulative & insincere.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write or a single dramatic gesture. (Not saying not to do/say those too, but focus on consistent changes, over time. That earns the spouse's belief in the changes).

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever, & even when you truly feel desperate & needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse. Very important that you get this concept.

31. When you communicate with your spouse, do not focus on yourself; instead, focus on them. If in person, make eye contact.

32. Do not believe any of what THEY SAY and less than 50% of what THEY DO. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared, AND OR, b/c they want to justify their leaving.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes! Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day, unless absolutely necessary. (That means only in urgent matters.)

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Do Not convince yourself that being miserable or sad shows how much you care for your spouse. It's not attractive or appealing, period. Be upbeat and keep the PMA.


39. If there is OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave.

40. Know that you really will be alright in the long run, that your personal work will yield good things regardless of the choices others make. You will be happy again.

[hotwheelsaust]

Thanks 25yearsmlc, another printout to go over and try to abide by. For me, to be a better person.

[Pathfinder2]

Hey PF, haven't heard from you in a while. How are things?

Hi Grizz!

I've been away from the boards for a while because I felt that I was becoming quite obsessed with writing about my situation and getting caught up in everyone else's business. I think it was good for me to take a break from all of it. It helped me realize I am going to be ok. The first thing that I had to do was to stop talking about it all the time. One of the ways to stop was to stop reading and posting on this site. I feel this has done me a bit of good.

I'll post a bit more on how things are going over here within a few days. Right now, I'm headed over to check up on you.

Thanks for checking in on me. It means a lot to me that you did that.