A Tale of Two Cities

[QueenOhHearts]

Hi everyone,

I've been a lurker for a while. Here's my story.......

My H and I separated a few months ago and he went to live with his parents. The separation was unplanned, the result of an ultimatum I gave him gone terribly wrong. After we had time to cool down (3 weeks) I initiated contact by email to ask a "business question". He answered promptly but let me know he was still too emotional to have more contact. Fair enough. At that point I realized I did want to save the marriage. I must add that I have a lot of biased shoulders (as does my H) to end the marriage. I waited a week after the first contact to see if he would reach out. He didn't and so I sent another email with a "business question". He again answered promptly, with a little more personality and humor. I took this to be good signs. Then I made a huge mistake.

Wanting to "take his temperature" I sent a message regarding selling his things and filing for separation. I asked him what he thought of this plan. He wrote back after a few days telling me to go ahead and let him know what he could do to help. Not the response I wanted.

That's when I found this board and began reading DR. Although I didn't make all the mistakes I could have I obviously have made some.

The first thing I realized is that my H probably wanted to reconcile but wasn't ready to talk yet. He's an avoidant personality and I've failed to respect his need for time and space. I have abandonment issues from my past (plus he has left me several other times after fights) so I feel really uncomfortable allowing him breathing room. But I started to think about my goals and identifying my cheeseless tunnels and some 180's I could implement.

Fast forward to today: I think we are "piecing". Not sure. We are talking online only and he admitted to me yesterday that he wants to come home and be a good husband but we have to discuss reconciliation "criteria". I agreed to do that.

I've NEVER initiated contact with H since I began reading DR. I do respond to his messages (although sometimes I wait a few hours or days). During our conversations he's been very honest --something he has not been in the past. I've really been affected by the brutally honest assessment of himself, his faults, and failures. It's blown me away that he's done this introspection. And yesterday he admitted that his attempts to establish a new life away from me is a total failure and he wants to come home. This transparency has been a desire of mine for years and he's giving it without me having to ask for it. It's encouraging but BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY and LET GO OF EXPECTATIONS.

So we agreed to a specific time this Sunday to discuss "reconciliation criteria". Frankly, I don't know how to proceed with my criteria. I don't feel comfortable giving him a list of my expectations because 1) that's not GAL/detaching, 2) I doubt he could live up to them anyway, 3) it seems inconsistent with DR.

My idea is that I should focus more on the key problem areas and develop strategies for what specific steps I will take to deal with those scenarios with loving detachment.

I would appreciate some guidance before Sunday. I don't want to blow this chance to redesign my marriage and my future.

Thanks!!!!

[QueenOhHearts]

Hello,

Just an update. I've not contacted H even though I've wanted to. I'm a bit sad that he's not contacted me. It really makes me wonder if he really wants to be together. I've focused on me and my kids. The things I've done to take care of myself recently are:

- new hairstyle & color
- manicure/pedicure (I let it go for a long time)
- wearing makeup everyday
- wearing bright and cheery colors instead of black
- being friendly to people when I'm out (making chit chat at church or stores)
- cleaning my house
- starting a business that's I've procrastinated on
- watching a movie to unwind
- getting a massage
- distancing from a toxic biased shoulder

I'm also in 12 step so I'm back to meetings. I had let them slide after a move.

I'm nervous about the "criteria" discuss tomorrow. I'm not really sure what to expect. I don't have anything prepared. A 180 for me is to go unprepared. That way my H has the floor, so to speak. I'm the big talker, so I think this would be totally different than anything I've done in the past.

Ideas anyone?

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board.

It is still very early.

Keep your expectations low to zero.
Let him control the contact.
This is not a one shot deal.

If you are to have a realtionship he will need to have consistent actions not words that prove it.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Knowledge is Power - Francis Bacon

Keep Posting but have patience for your posts to show up

[labug]

There's really not much to go on here. You want transparency, does that mean he's had affairs in the past?

Go and hear what he has to say, listen and validate. Then see where you are.

But there must be more to your story.

[Grace_O]

Listening and validating are really powerful tools. And, know that you don't have to decide everything today. You can both "take in" what the other has tosay and think about how you want to proceed.

Have you considered a DB coach?

HUGS

[QueenOhHearts]

We've both had EA's that ended over a year ago. I would say the biggest problems we have right now is that I think he's having a MLC. He seems pre-occupied with his legacy, acting younger than he is (trying to come across as a 20 something), wanting to be an authority figure in the family without actually shouldering the responsibility. I never really considered MLC until a few days ago.

We are both in 12 step.

I'll let everyone know how the conversation goes.

Thanks for the support.

[QueenOhHearts]

Hi all,

Had the conversation with H. I'm very disappointed. I claims that in the past 4 days he's been hit with a sinus infection and can't find a job so he was unable to actually work on a list of criteria. But he did take the opportunity to complain about me and how badly I treated him. He insisted I get a job (I collect almost $3K a month in child support so I'm a homeschooling stay at home mom) and I am running the household without him on all my own income. So there's the proof I don't need more income. When I pointed this out he pretended like he forgot about it. Then he complained about his legacy, his future....sounds like MLC to me but not sure.

I listened, validated his feelings, admitted where I was truly at fault. He complained about sacrifices he has made for me (but he couldn't articulate them) and then I GENTLY pointed out that I had made some too. He was incredulous and demanded examples. I gave him 3 and he sheepishly apologized. Then he seemed interested in compromise.

I realized just how black & white his thinking is. I never realized before. Wow, in his mind if he is the good guy I MUST be the bad guy. I asked him if we can both be the good guys. He really paused a long time before answering that.

I was tempted to complain about how he's treated me but I stuck to responding to his issues.

I can't be certain, but I get the feeling that he wants me to take care of getting him home, buy his airfare (he's totally broke right now) and just let him come back and expect nothing from him. He spoke a lot about how he's just too dumb or too old to change or too sensitive. Then all the statements to make me feel guilty. Expressed quiet rage that I threw him out (he walked out)...this just doesn't sound like someone who really is taking responsibility.

I ended to convo and he wants to continue tomorrow night. I have a bad feeling that his only objective is for me to "rescue" him from his parents house.

On a surprising note he asked me out of the blue "Do you love me?". This is significant because for 3 years I've been saying ILYBIDLY. I didn't even know he cared if I loved him. He's acted as if it doesn't matter. He's acted like my EA's had no effect. His EA's tore me up and I let him know.

Anyway, I totally am going to believe nothing this man says and look at actions only. He's really acting like a sad case, a victim, a broken man, a wounded bird....the old me would swoop in and save him. I won't be doing that again.

Ideas?

[AnotherStander]

I agree with the others, you need to take this slow and let him control the pace. It sounds like things are going well though!

The separation was unplanned, the result of an ultimatum I gave him gone terribly wrong.

It would be helpful if you could provide more info on this. What was the ultimatum and why was it given?

I've NEVER initiated contact with H since I began reading DR. I do respond to his messages (although sometimes I wait a few hours or days).

Sounds like you're following the "last resort" steps in DR, but please understand the LR is meant to get the WAS's attention. In your case you have his attention and reconciliation is on the table, so there's no need to maintain as much distance (IE, waiting days to respond to a message).

During our conversations he's been very honest --something he has not been in the past. I've really been affected by the brutally honest assessment of himself, his faults, and failures.

Excellent! Sounds like a really positive development.

And yesterday he admitted that his attempts to establish a new life away from me is a total failure and he wants to come home.

Tread carefully here, you don't want him returning because you're the "lesser of two evils". You want him to return committed to developing a newer, better relationship with you. That's one of the things you'll want to discuss.

I don't feel comfortable giving him a list of my expectations because 1) that's not GAL/detaching, 2) I doubt he could live up to them anyway, 3) it seems inconsistent with DR.

Why don't you list those expectations here so we can comment on them.

My idea is that I should focus more on the key problem areas and develop strategies for what specific steps I will take to deal with those scenarios with loving detachment.

That sounds good, but again, if you can list those here it will make it easier for us to help you.

[QueenOhHearts]

Boy am I totally disappointed. Had the convo with H last night about his "criteria" for reconciliation. It's clear he hasn't changed at all, and if anything, he has become more firmly entrenched in the belief that he's a victim and I am the one that needs to make all the changes. He was trying to convince me that I am wrong and his ways are right and should be respected. Unbelievably, this man who doesn't work enough to put food on the table told me I needed to get a job to help with our future! I have a separate means of support that is nearly $3K a month and covers mine and my children's expenses. What nerve!

And then he said I have to let him travel to funerals and weddings without throwing a fuss. He accused me of not letting him go to family events (WHAT????? what events?????) I said I encourage him as long as he pays for it. THAT'S WHEN THE DIALOGUE STOPPED ON HIS END. I also added that I want to take my kids on vacations without him and that I would pay for it. Again....silence. I find that very suspicious.

Here'a the list of his criteria:

- I have to get rid of my all or nothing thinking (but he claims he doesn't do this)

- No exiling him from the house (I agree. Going forward I will leave if I need space from him).

- We must keep biased family members at arms length (he meant mine must be keep away--he specifically said I need to reach out to his daughter and parents and build a relationship with them even though they have said they don't want to have anything to do with me).

- He wants to go to a marriage counselor

- He no longer wants to be involved in our church

- He wants me to get a job

- He wants me to accept decisions he make and not countermand him

- He says he can't trust me

- He wants to be married while retaining benefits of being single (pursuing artistic pursuits rather than work a "9 to 5" job, shouldn't have to pay what he thinks are unfair debts, wants to spend his free time by himself doing what he likes without me, wants to have sex but doesn't want babies)

- He wants to exercise authority with accountability to me

Well we are supposed to start up again on Wednesday night with my criteria but honestly after hearing what he wants, I no longer feel like reconciling. I'm not going to tell him this right now. I think I just want to go back to small and flirty talk for the time being. Not sure what else to do. I'm just really disappointed in him.

The things I want him to change....well, I can tell by his list that he's nowhere near ready to make the changes. I think we need to be apart longer for him to realize that he truly has to make changes. I get the impression that I might be Plan B since things aren't going the way he wanted where he's at.

Cake eating....

Comments????

[QueenOhHearts]

It would be helpful if you could provide more info on this. What was the ultimatum and why was it given?

I confronted him on his not committing himself to our religion. He promised at our wedding to do this. He knew it was a reservation of mine and I made it very clear that he could not be lackadaisical in this regard. He agreed to be very devout and involved. I confronted to ask him if he had changed his mind. He said he needed time to think about it. We agreed on a timeframe. Instead--he called his parents, made secret arrangements, and took off. So he didn't keep his word. And he blames me for this by saying I was pressuring him and he had no choice. Of course, this is a long-standing pattern with him. He has left several times (at his parents expense) and then always comes back after he's had a break. He did this to his first wife a few times as well. I understand that his father did this many times in childhood. They had a family cabin that the father used to go off to many times after a fight. But this isn't the same thing.

Why don't you list those expectations here so we can comment on them.

- H must become fully employed (40 per week) and earn enough income to cover his and my expenses.

- H must consistently earn income and pay bills on time.

- H must begin providing for our retirement.

- H must work towards paying off his debts.

- H must verbalize his feelings or needs to me if they directly impact or involve me.

- H must continue his 12 step recovery program.

- H must fulfill his marriage promises to me by more fully engaging in our church.

- H must put his marital and financial obligations before his artistic pursuits unless those pursuits generate significant income.

- H must discontinue double standards that W must allow H freedom to do as he pleases without extending that right to her.

- If H needs time away from W he should verbalize this and work towards a plan that suits everyone and causes least amount of upset to the family.

- H needs to work on his jealousy issues--it is very destructive to the children.

- H needs to enthusiastically participate in a recreational life with me.

- H needs to work with W to develop a social life that includes Christian married couples.

These are the main ones right now.