When tapestries of life get tangled in the loom.

[Big Bruce]

Follows from :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2308924&page=12

Hello all,
Writing from France. Hope you all had a good Christmas.

To recap : no gift AT ALL to W. Only a card that said: "I wish you a merry X-mas".
Very short and neutral message.
Got to skype today with son. W didn't show up on the screen. She's clearly avoiding contact.

My fault if she's like that: before catching the plane I sent this email saying I felt we were getting along better lately and more connected, and asking whether she meant we should work things out between us, or she meant something else.
I also told her my fear was that we may administratively reach 50/50% S custody time, but I was scared if that brought more separetedness between us.
--> I shouldn't have been honest and show my need and vulnerability. I had a moment of weakness, I don't know.. the result is that she's avoiding me now.

Therefore, for the next 5 days, no contact at all, to show I'm not clingy. And then, maybe, try to organize a Skype session with Son on 1st January. But because he doesn't understand, let alone respond back yet, do you think it might be seen as a maneuver to see/talk to her?
In that case, is it better no contact at all until 6th January?

I know I have to back off, but how much is well balanced without being "negleting her" again ?
(Especially as she said she would think over the holidays about a visit schedule to work towards an "equal parenting plan".)

I realize that I ask many questions in this first message, and that with X-mas and family time for everybody, it isn't easy to answer, so thank you for any hint of how I should handle this.

Joyeux Noël !
B.

[SM34]

There is no such thing as neglecting.her right now.because she has chosen to be neglected by you.

I would just be a mature, friendly caring person and a living and devoted son and wait for her to see it. I would not. Sending her messages of reconciliation because that is exactly what they tell you not to do.

[25yearsmlc]

Bruce

read this carefully...we said for you to reach out to YOUR SON and NOT your wife.

So you reached out to her anyhow...and since we're not sure all the things you said to her in the email, all we know is apparently it did not help you at all.

Learn from this. ^^^

Follows from :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2308924&page=12

Hello all,
Writing from France. Hope you all had a good Christmas.

To recap : no gift AT ALL to W. Only a card that said: "I wish you a merry X-mas".
Very short and neutral message.

that^^ is fine.

Got to skype today with son. W didn't show up on the screen. She's clearly avoiding contact.

Nothing new there. She has been avoiding you ever since you arrived in Canada and even less since you sought custody...IS that correct?

Even if it is true, that's not necessarily punitive. A LOT of folks back way off once litigation begins. It's self protection and b/c they fear more conflict or escalation.



My fault if she's like that: before catching the plane I sent this email saying I felt we were getting along better lately and more connected, and asking whether she meant we should work things out between us, or she meant something else.

I'm curious. Why did you feel that you were getting more connected? Wasn't she avoiding you? OR was this a tactic to get her to tell you what she meant when she said "take things slowly"?

Why didn't you just ask her the question about what she meant, rather than pretend that you two are getting closer.

That pretense/lie makes it look as if you interpret mere civility as progres and that will scare off most walk away wives. They want their departure to be taken seriously-

like they had good reason to leave. From what I could tell, and I don't mean to hurt you with this statement, but as you know, I feel as if she did have reasons...

so, for you to see her every gesture of civility as closeness (not actual warmth or reaching out, though I admit some confusion by her "working slowly" comment)

will push her away. Hence our advice to back off...which I'll repeat now.

Back off HER, not your son. Just her. You still must prove to the court AND her, that you are a concerned father and that this isn't all about "winning" or your ego.

If you back off both of them b/c your feelings are hurt b/c SHE did not show up on the screen, that makes you look small.


I also told her my fear was that we may administratively reach 50/50% S custody time, but I was scared if that brought more separetedness between us.

you mean that you fear your request for more time with your son, will alienate HER?

That makes it look exactly like you don't want time with him nearly as much as you want HER back.

That's NOT what you are supposed to be doing. I wish you could see this. I keep saying it to you... Don't know another way of explaining it.


--> I shouldn't have been honest and show my need and vulnerability. I had a moment of weakness, I don't know.. the result is that she's avoiding me now.

1) you showed your real agenda, which is getting HER back, not being a great dad.

2) her avoidance of you..."now"...isn't this something that began before now?

Therefore, for the next 5 days, no contact at all, to show I'm not clingy.

You mean no contact with HER, right? B/c you MUST contact your son...no later than the 1st. That's not much for a 2 y/o to go on for memory and recall. But it's the least you can do, so make sure you do it.

This isn't supposed to be about how YOU feel around her or how SHE treats YOU,

it's supposed to be about you establishing a relationship with your son and building on it.


And then, maybe, try to organize a Skype session with Son on 1st January.

Bruce, arrange it asap. Make sure it happens. Period. Why wouldn't you talk to him?


But because he doesn't understand, let alone respond back yet, do you think it might be seen as a maneuver to see/talk to her?

Maybe so maybe not. I can't tell how you arrange these things or why you notice if SHE is around...so I think it only appears like a tactic if you make it that way.

Are you saying he just sits there and doesn't look at the skype screen or what?

I mean, does anything go on in the conversations? That's relevant.



In that case, is it better no contact at all until 6th January?

I doubt it. Of course, I assume you mean contact with your SON and NOT your wife. Have no contact with her at all, EXCEPT for how it relates to the son and contacting HIM...

I know I have to back off, but how much is well balanced without being "negleting her" again ?

you neglected her in the past and she left a year ago. NOW is not the time to show her that you don't care if she wants space and time away from you.

Now is the time to show you DO respect her desires. She's avoiding you and she's being very clear about it. She made ONE confusing comment about "taking things slowly" which probably meant "increasing time with son" and NOT things between you two...

Now is the time you show that you DO CARE about your son.

I believe most of the neglect she felt was on his behalf.


(Especially as she said she would think over the holidays about a visit schedule to work towards an "equal parenting plan".)

Meaning, I ASSUME, that she wants to build up to a more equal plan.

This isn't about you two; it's about co-parenting. So, you see that, right? That might be the start of something you can develop LATER but your time line is too impatient and then you rush/push for more and she withdraws.

When I gave you a timeline of "90 days at the soonest", you scoffed & expected A LOT of progress "by Christmas". You even thought you might ask her to move in with you..... But I meant, 90 days at the soonest.


I realize that I ask many questions in this first message, and that with X-mas and family time for everybody, it isn't easy to answer, so thank you for any hint of how I should handle this.

Joyeux Noël !
B.

I think you should handle it the way I thought you were planning to.

you contact your wife ONLY about your son. You then communicate with him on a regular schedule. At the very least that includes Christmas day and New Year's...but I'd be calling more than that.

IF the phone is useless at his age, then Skype is needed and so is the assistance of someone at her end. But it need not be HER...anyone else there know how to skype for your son?

Make sure you are upbeat with whomever you speak and be KIND and gentle to your boy. I hope he/you had a good Christmas.

My youngest bought her father a hunting knife, which she wanted to wrap last night. Then she accidentally cut herself with it, so badly we had to go to the emergency room on Christmas Eve for stitches. I think she's thrilled she didn't cry AND that he didn't figure out it was "his new knife" that is quite sharp.


Joyeux Noel.

[Big Bruce]

Hello all,
Thank you 25. Sorry to hear about the knife and the emergency visit with your D... hope all's happy now.

Here are some answers in order to try and make it clearer.

Nothing new there. She has been avoiding you ever since you arrived in Canada and even less since you sought custody...IS that correct?

--> Not really. There has been a period, when she was trying to "strike the deal" where she was extremely nice. She even came to the visits alone, was all smiles, and sent me into thinking, "this is it! By Christmas, it'll be be a bad dream. The end of the ordeal is near". Then, when I refused to give up on the court proceeding asking for more time with S, she went back into avoiding/coldness. Three weeks ago, she came to my place when I picked up S, and we talked well, and laughed together (remember, I even was all disturbed).
Then on the last week I was in Canada, she once came to bring S for me to visit, and she stayed around. Civil and nice.

I'm curious. Why did you feel that you were getting more connected? Wasn't she avoiding you? OR was this a tactic to get her to tell you what she meant when she said "take things slowly"?

Both, I feel that the tension and anger is less severe. I don't know, I feel things are meant with less "punishment" for me. And I understand where she comes from, in a way.
And I wanted her to say it, that she meant to patch things up between us.
(by the way, she didn't respond to that email )

I feel as if she did have reasons...

I don't want to say I'm innocent, and other people don't know all about our couple, but several guys and girls told me I was kind of a "perfect", "dream" husband (sic).
I repeat here that her reasons for leaving were, true, existing, but on a scale from one to ten of touchiness and easily offended, her reasons were not serious serious reasons for D. She hasn't tried ANYTHING to save M. No counsellor, no big discussions with me, no pastoral help, no nothing. She just took a decision and wrote that email. Very cold thought and emotionless choice.

you mean that you fear your request for more time with your son, will alienate HER?

Yes, kind of like, "Here's Son, it's your turn, see you next week, bye", type of arrangement.

2) her avoidance of you..."now"...isn't this something that began before now?[/color]

As I said, she's been acting on and off, therefore, difficult to read or know what's what.

Are you saying he just sits there and doesn't look at the skype screen or what? I mean, does anything go on in the conversations? That's relevant.

Exactly, she turns on the screen, and 2y/o Son babbles and listens to me but doesn't understand a thing. He even left his chair, and I stared at the wall for 10 minutes before they realized he wasn't in front of the computer anymore...

When I gave you a timeline of "90 days at the soonest", you scoffed & expected A LOT of progress "by Christmas". You even thought you might ask her to move in with you..... But I meant, 90 days at the soonest.

Correct. Her behaviour then was too nice to be true. I got tricked.

Thanks for all, and if there's still gray areas, only ask, I'll be happy to be as precise as I can.

Happy holiday week,
Yours,
B.

[MrBond]

"Both, I feel that the tension and anger is less severe."

Because you backed off.

"I don't know, I feel things are meant with less "punishment" for me. And I understand where she comes from, in a way."

No you don't. You keep painting yourself as a victim and that she is being mean to you or punishing you. She's not. She stated she wanted a D. She told you why, very clearly and hasn't wavered from it. All this talk about "punishing" you is in your head and driven by your ego.

"And I wanted her to say it, that she meant to patch things up between us.
(by the way, she didn't respond to that email )"

Very egotistical of you. That's why she doesn't want to get back together. You've shown and are showing that your attitude hasn't changed which is why she's still pursuing the D.

"I feel as if she did have reasons..."

Yes she does and she stated them very clearly.

"I don't want to say I'm innocent, and other people don't know all about our couple, but several guys and girls told me I was kind of a "perfect", "dream" husband (sic)."

Lose the attitude. You still think of yourself as a "dream guy". A dose of humility will help you.

"I repeat here that her reasons for leaving were, true, existing,"

Yes.

"but on a scale from one to ten of touchiness and easily offended, her reasons were not serious serious reasons for D."

To you they weren't serious. When are you going to get that? It was important to HER. So you are still dismissing her feelings.

"She hasn't tried ANYTHING to save M. No counsellor, no big discussions with me, no pastoral help, no nothing. She just took a decision and wrote that email."

Because quite honestly, she probably did try to talk to you and you dismissed her every time. You're doing the same here so I can see that happening. I'm sure she thought that if she brought up counseling, she thought you would have scoffed at her and dismissed your M as being great. That's how she felt. Don't you get it by now?

"Very cold thought and emotionless choice."

Again that's where you're wrong. People who do that have usually tried in some way to repair things. They may not communicate it well, but they try. Then after attempts have failed in their mind, they start walling themselves off emotionally from the other person. It wasn't something she thought of overnight. Your letter from her stating her reasons, proved that. She had VERY valid reasons.

"Yes, kind of like, "Here's Son, it's your turn, see you next week, bye", type of arrangement."

BS. Start talking to him more often. Tell her that she needs to at least be in the room so that there is some sort of interpreter for you since you're not there.

"Correct. Her behaviour then was too nice to be true. I got tricked."

You weren't "tricked". She was just being nice. Period. Take it for what it's worth.

[InAPickle]

Listen to Bond, Bruce.
Pay attention.

If anyone has followed my saga, I was in a similar boat.
"Let me sell you somesing my fren !"

A lot of WAW's believe sincerely that they have been communicating their issues for years. And a lot of LBH's have been almost completely oblivious. I say "almost" because, they may have sensed something, but it was not powerful enough to elicit action.

What communicating you ask? Mostly simple remarks, dropping subtle hints, sometimes overt complaints and venting, shopping, whatever; it all goes completely over the LBH's head and frustrates the potential WAW. You have to acknowledge that and her feelings behind that. If you just want to defend yourself, and continue to believe you are perfect, you won't get anywhere.

[adinva]

Hi Bruce. Why are you not skyping with your son a lot more, for short stretches of time, so he begins to know you better?

Christmas and New Year's calls make you sound like a great-uncle.

Why not look for information on how to bond with a 2yo so he knows you love him? I don't know, maybe google it. Ask soldiers serving overseas how they do it; there are quite a few on these boards who either served or had a spouse who did.

It would be sweet to read him a short bedtime story, inviting him to interact - "what's this" "what's that" "where's the doggie, can you point to him?". He's captive and can't wander away if he's in bed. Maybe even ask MIL to hold the laptop or the boy - instead of W - to start erasing the very obvious impression you've created that he's a tool to get your W back to you. You can give your W the space she's begging for, and have a chance to make a good impression on her mum.

I think a 2yo has a very short attention span, I don't know how long your calls have been but if he has time to wander away it was too long. Shorter and more frequent is better.

[Big Bruce]

Thank you all for your support and advice.
I know Mr Bond has good insight, and I have to keep shifting my perception of things, which in turn will change my answer to situations.

For the moment I have an appointment for the 1st Jan. to Skype with young Bruce.
Do you think I should call before New Year's Day, when W is not home (without warning), and just ask plain if I can speak with my son?

Cheers,
B.

[Big Bruce]

F* !
I just received the affidavit from W. It's the sworn declaration that will be used for Court.
It's full of deformed truths, and slander.

How do I react ? Do I call W and tell her what I think ?

[25yearsmlc]

F* !
I just received the affidavit from W. It's the sworn declaration that will be used for Court.
It's full of deformed truths, and slander.

How do I react ? Do I call W and tell her what I think ?

DO NOT CONTACT HER ABOUT THIS...

ONLY HAVE LAWYERS HANDLING IT...

YOU want to react in anger - which will be used against you.

"Deformed truths" are what you call it, but she or her lawyers call it advocating for our clients.

This is how SHE sees it (OR it's how her lawyers wants to argue it). Do not blame her.

But YOU do NOT say a word about this to her. You let your lawyer do ALL the talking.

Consider this a test and you must pass it the first time.


So Contact your lawyer and Shut up around your wife. Make it ALL about time with your son.

(SIDENOTE on the law.... "Slander" is spoken, "libel" is written. Unless she misstates FACTS, it's just her opinion and that is not libel. HOWEVER in some places such as California, bad mouthing your spouse to the child, is very frowned upon. In this state you can LOSE custody if you persist in bad mouthing the other parent. IT's called "parental alienation"....

[[[so the joke goes: "IF you want to call your xh a miserable selfish SOB @$%&#!!!"...

you have to STAY married!!"]]]

and fwiw, the contacts via skype OR phone, at his age can't be longer than 5 minutes UNLESS you are telling him a story. If he wanders off, it's not holding his attention and also, document that. She ought to facilitate contact

(but NOTE---- her lawyer may argue "who told the father to go so far away for Christmas?? The father clearly does not value time with the boy and only wants to lower his chid support payments by threatening his wife with the loss of her son..."

Be ready to read things like that and only by your ACTIONS can you disprove them...

In the skype or phone calls,
YOU must keep the conversation going, you have to ask him what he ate that day, and what he's wearing if he put it on himself if he wathed a show that day or if Santa came or whatever his age allow, and tell him SHORT but exciting stories

Do you have any nieces or nephews?

Is there anyone in your family you can ask for advice from about young kids? You need to connect with him

and no more 2-3 weeks away from him. (I'd go nuts away from my only child that long...it would make my heart ache, and I don't know how you spent months apart from him BUT I BELIEVE that your wife saw it as very very significant and you still don't.

You were not helpful with the child. You openly resented him and you deserted your wife at her most vulnerable time in a country foreign to her. That removes you from ANY "perfect husband" contests...you need to read my post to you about what being a new mother is like and how your behavior soooo contrasted with what she needed. She left you a year ago so in her mind, she gave you a year of you mistreating her AND your only child...

do not revise your marital history or you'll do so at your peril.

I wish she had sought counselling but then, would YOU have really taken it seriously? Most men admit that unless they believe their wife is about to leave them, they do not take counselling seriously OR changing themselves...

do you miss your son very much? Are you contacting him to prove something or b/c you want to see his face?

Last but not least, I repeat, do NOT contact your wife about LEGAL matters.

Only discuss your son...

don't ignore this advice Bruce...