SS, that's funny that you'd mention the Words thing. I play with my neighbor across the street and my two step-daughters. Well my step-daughters play brutal, so I really ramp it up when I play with them. But my neighbor across the street plays more casual. I beat her really badly the first couple games because I was in kill mode from SD's, and she said something about it. So I started playing down. Not in a bad way, not like "dumbing down," but just in a more relaxed way. In one sense, I enjoy playing more with her than I do my SD's because it isn't so stressful.
I get H not getting the puzzle thing. I don't get baseball. Or most sports really. He doesn't have to do puzzles with me. I rarely do them anymore anyway, don't have time. It's the need to steal my thunder in everything that I don't get. Which BTW, he doesn't only do it with me. He torqued off my BFF because he told everyone that she got a new car. He torqued off his brother because he sent out a group email to the entire extended family announcing that he was having heart surgery. I've talked to him about it, but he just does it again. It's just how he's wired. So knowing that he's not going to change in that, do I just graciously give up my thunder knowing he's going to steal it anyway? Do I just stop doing things around him in order to prevent it? Still trying to figure out the appealing option with this.
I do think you pegged it, though, with "She says she tried telling me, however all she did was complain and nag." I think that's my H to a tee. But for me, even your suggestion of using the words, "when you do x, y, and z it makes me feel like _____," doesn't work with H. Are you sure it would have worked with you? From what I read from Stosny, it seems like men (in their natural state) aren't receptive to anything the resembles a R discussion. At least not until life as they know it is threatened. He writes, [quote]"Talking about feelings, which is soothing to women, makes men physically uncomfortable," says Stosny, the Maryland-based author of You Don't Have to Take It Anymore and an expert on male aggression. "There's literally more blood flow to their muscles. They get fidgety, and women think they're not listening. A man's greatest suffering," Stosny says, "comes from the shame he feels when he doesn't measure up—which is why discussing relationship problems (i.e., what he's doing wrong) offers about as much comfort as sleeping on a bed of nails."
I would like to say that I would have responded in a positive way. However I honestly do not know because it did not happen that way. We both took on roles in our relationship. We both did not know how to really communicate and listen to each other. A lot of tit for tat happened on both sides. I would have to say that she did not listen to me just as much as I did not listen to her. I do believe that people can change. We usually only change (I mean real change) when the pain of change is less than the pain of stay in the current situation. Her response to the pain is to walk away. My response to the pain is to try and look at my actions/behaviors and correct as much as I can. My wife refuses go to counseling (I have offered to pay for her own counselor even if we do get a divorce). She says that she does not need to go that the problem is with me. I also do not believe that men are incapable of change unless threatened, again its all about which way is perceived as less painful. I think changing myself in the long run will be less painful, my wife thinks leaving and finding someone else is less painful.
Changing me is the only way for me to truly be happy. My wife, children, job what ever does not make me happy. I make me happy. We all go through periods in our lives when we are sad, happy or in a depressed mood. If we are okay with who we are, it makes getting through the tough times bearable. So when the good times come we can really appreciate them. I know it sounds narcissistic but I think it's crucial to be okay with ourselves. Without that we cannot love or be loved without it being toxic. IMHO
You can not change your past, but you can ruin a perfectly good present by worrying about the future.
Subguy, I think we might be saying the same thing, just differently. I referred to it as "life as they know it is threatened," you referred to it as "change being the less painful option." I believe anyone can change, but they have to be motivated to do so. The question is "what" does it take to arrive at that point? Unfortunately, it appears that many, many times, it's the ILYBINILWY speech and pending S or D.
I agree that it's critical that you're happy with yourself before you can be happy with anyone else or anyone else can be happy with you. But even once you're happy with yourself, I don't think that means you're invincible and no one can affect you. There are toxic relationships that you're better off cutting ties completely. I don't think we're required to be in relationship with everyone just because we're "happy" with ourselves. And there has to be something in-between, something between toxic and wonderful. Doesn't it stand to reason that if my H chooses to play his music really loud (hypothetically) and I ask him not to but he does it anyway, that it's reasonable for me to remove myself from the room? Do I have to stay there and deal with it simply because I'm "happy?"
I know that a lot of M problems are deep and complicated. Some problems manifest themselves that are rooted in childhood issues. But many of them aren't. How difficult is it to communicate/understand that I need for his office to not be a pit? How many times do I have to hear "I'll clean it tonight, before I go to bed" and it doesn't happen before I get to call B.S.? When we set it up, he promised me he would keep it neat or give it up. It has never been neat in, oh I don't know, 8 years? But he isn't about to give it up either like he said.
In all these instances, I'm just looking for suggestions on how to go forward in a M, how to make it somehow palatable for me, so that my solution doesn't require his changing since it appears he's not going to, regardless of whether he "can" or not. Does it really require a discussion of whether or not it should be important to me whether his office is neat or not? Do I have to explain that I don't need it white-glove clean, just that I'm tired of the used Kleenex that have been on the floor for months? Does it boil down to either I walk around the Kleenex or I pick them up myself, because those are my only two options, and still somehow I can call it a great R because we're not arguing about it? Does my gma's true perspective on her M really have any relevance to the used Kleenex on the floor and the fact that *I* don't care to be H's maid? Sure, I could hire a cleaning lady to pick up the Kleenex. What about the boxes that are sitting around on the floor from his last job change a year and a half ago? Throw them away? Great, which means he'll toss the first thing of mine that he can get his hands on, even if it's only been out of place for 10 minutes. Wow! That sounds fun! Still a healthy M?
Sorry, I'm getting frustrated. I'm getting so tired of peeling my own onion. I just want to get on with life. I just need to know how. I'm really trying to salvage my M, but I don't want to lose "me" in the process. I actually LIKE me.
Well, I'm not sure if it would have taken the ILYBNILWO speech for me. Looking back over our relationship I see the controlling behavior my wife had and tactics she used to "change me". I will never go back to that relationship now! WE both must change, if we both do not our relationship will never work. I the "LBS" CANNOT be the only one that changes. I understand right now and for some time I will be the only one working on our relationship. Threatening me with divorce so that only I change and work through pain etc. is just that, a threat and another controlling behavior.
I guess the question is have you really worked on you?? I read in your posts a lot of he just pisses me off. What I do not read is I am correcting this about me because it impacts my relationship in this way and it is a healthy way to live. I'm not saying change to kiss his rear end, change for the positive. If you have really done the work and he refuses to change then I think you have your answer. * To be fair I have not read all of your posts maybe you have said those things, please correct me if you have.
I think it is important to explain why YOU need his office to be clean. It may not be important to him (obviously). He cannot read minds so let him know. Boundaries is not about being a door mat, it's about you controlling you. Sometimes that's removing yourself from the situation as in your playing loud music scenario, Or calling BS over an agreement that you two made about keeping the office clean.
Have you given the "speech" yet?? If so did your husband react and want to change??
I don't think we're required to be in relationship with everyone just because we're "happy" with ourselves. And there has to be something in-between, something between toxic and wonderful. Doesn't it stand to reason that if my H chooses to play his music really loud (hypothetically) and I ask him not to but he does it anyway, that it's reasonable for me to remove myself from the room? Do I have to stay there and deal with it simply because I'm "happy?"
lol now your justifying, I never said or implied that.
You can not change your past, but you can ruin a perfectly good present by worrying about the future.
AJ, I don't know what my H is still getting out of the R, so I don't know how my perspective can be skewed.
safe to say that you just have different perspectives of the same situation? And leave it at that?
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BTW, you didn't answer MY question. I asked how in the world do we "figure it out, together" when R discussion is completely off the table? And, no, I'm not assuming this to be true about my H, I know it to be true. He has pointed it out to me. He's said to me, "Thirty seconds ago, I was cold. Now look at me. All you have to do is start a conversation and I'm instantly hot and sweating, and my heart is pounding out of my chest."
How do "we" figure it out together? For starters there has to be a "we". Until that's settled, it's pretty tough to even care about the other issues.
As for the perspective on your Grandparents: personally, it's ok that you don't see the same things. I do take umbrage at this:
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And I suspect if that's the general attitude of the LBS toward the WAS's sitch, then it's a wonder that any M's are saved with MWD's approach or any other for that matter.
. That just seems like frustration and lashing out on your part. I can tell you that many many lbs' do change only to be told it's too late. Some of us don't (I contorted, but didn't change - it wasn't about me though and she didn't even make it about me until close to a year in and 6months post BD). I also know that many WAS' later think that they told their partner to change and when they didn't, they got frustrated and left. Some actually do tell them. Others think they did, but that's when we learn there are three sides to the story: yours, mine, and the truth. The fourth dimension to that is the perspective but no rabbit holes this time, ok?
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(Only one note: I think it's absurd to think that any W in her right mind would value being treated like a servant, first by her H and then by her 5 boys that followed in daddy's footsteps.)
You just don't get that somebody can have a different need or different view. I understand that. I personally don't care for the servant/master relationship either. Not my thing. So one has to ask why grandma didn't snap years ago. Have affairs, leave, get a job and let her H fend for himself and raise the five boys. Plenty of other women did it. Kenny Rogers wrote a song about it. Can you explain why she didn't? Was she not in her right mind?
I know you don't understand some of those rabbit holes or questions with infinite answers. Not all questions can be answered. But they are still worth asking for the thoughts they invoke. There are a lot of things you have yet to have considered as we try to help you solve this puzzle. Since you don't have the answer, and since you aren't stupid perhaps some different thinking is what will help. Maybe not. You might get too irritated outside your thought bubble and decide to stop thinking. Logical people that enjoy a set path often do not like to be challenged in their thinking. My image is that you are a very logical and methodical thinker by nature and by trade.
Who knows though right? We all look alike on my screen
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
First of all, CV, I enjoyed reading your posts because it really has given me a little insight into my W.
Second, I don't do advice... all I can do is state what I would/am doing.
I think the most important thing for me to remember... and perhaps the hardest... is that nothing, nothing nothing I can do will make my W change. The ONLY thing I have control over in my life is myself. I can't make my children change. I can't make my W change. I can't make my boss change. I can't even make my own dog change, but I can.
I can change the way I communicate. I'm naturally a very animated talker. My voice raises and my arms move and I like to stand up and pace as I'm delivering my 'speeches'. I know, now, that speaking like that comes across as lecturing, my voice comes across as yelling, and my arm waving comes across as someone who is inches from completely losing it. None of that is true, but sometimes truth isn't nearly as important as perception.
I can change my perception. I'm am open person - when I feel it, I say it. When I'm upset, I say I'm upset... and often times communicated it as mentioned above. My W is the opposite. When she gets upset, she closes down, and that's not a good combination. From my perspective, she doesn't 'care' enough to express her feelings, which makes me more upset, which makes her close down more, which makes me more upset... I need to change my perception and TRY to look at it from her point of view. It's hard. It's not 'fair' - she SHOULD try and look at it from my point of view, but then I would be forgetting the most important thing... I cannot change her. I can only change myself... so I have to look at things through HER eyes and see if there is any way I can change myself - not necessarily to simply 'live with it', but to see if there is a better way to express my feelings without the 'head on fire' 'lectures'. There are a host of issues in our M that I can/will/need to look at through her eyes. I mean, we can sit down across the table from one another, set a coin on edge between us – describe the coin from our perspective and convince ourselves that we’re both looking at completely different coins. It’s not until the coin is looked at from both sides do you realize that it is the same coin. It’s been the same coin all along, and I truly believe in my heart of hearts that it DOES only take one person to START looking at both sides of the coin to open up the lines of OPEN and HONEST discussion to lead to both parties to see both sides of the coin.
Your post BTW, has helped with perspective... thank you.
Lastly, for now at least, I'm trying to be more giving. I see a lot of my W in your posts. I thought I read a couple pages back where you would lie to H just to make things better. My W would do that, which has caused trust issues. So... I'm going to GIVE my wife trust. She hasn't earned it - she doesn't 'deserve' it, but I'm going to give it. I'm going to GIVE her understanding. I believe in my heart that she is 100% wrong in a lot of areas, but I'm going to GIVE her the gift of trying to understand her PERSPECTIVE.
One other thing. I've been working, in my own mind, on a description of what a truly good husband would be, and I'm going to be that. That doesn't require anything from my W. I'm going to be faithful. I'm going to be honest. I'm going to be compassionate. I'm going to be a good listener. I'm going to put God back in his place in my life. I'm provide for my wife and kids the to the best of my ability and as selflessly as I can. I'm going to do that NOW. I'm not going to wait until W decides what she wants to be a willing participant.
I am the only one that I have to look at in the mirror each morning, and I want to know that the man I'm looking at is a good man. I'm not perfect, and I understand what I've done in my part towards driving a wedge into our marriage, and I only have control of that man in the mirror.
Subguy, what's the difference in your case between a boundary and controlling? I'm sure there's more to it than what you wrote but you said that her "threatening me with divorce so that only I change" is controlling. I look at that as simply a boundary: "I have this issue with you; I don't care to have you treat me this way anymore; if you continue I will D you." The definition of boundaries is something I've always struggled with, I think mostly because H condemns my healthy boundaries so all it gets skewed in my head, so I'm just curious as to your perspective.
To your question, yes, I have/do work on me. It's something I've just always done. I grew up with very little and absolutely no sense of entitlement, so if there was something I wanted, it was up to me to do what I needed to get it. Simple. Change is not difficult for me, at least not if it's something I want to change. There's a lot of things I could be better at, but I just don't care enough about them to do it (like keeping my toenails painted.) Other things that I care about, even big things, are not a problem for me to change. It's tough in our R because H finds it impossible to change even the simplest thing, like placing his car keys in a regular place so he can find them in the morning when he needs to go to work.
I have explained to H why I need the office clean. That's why he initially agreed to keep it tidy or he would give it up. I have called BS on it, I've reminded him of his promise and said I need for him to give it up. He just doesn't, says other guys have offices and he should be able to have one too. So he still has it and it's still pitted out. Now what? For me, it has resulted in a daily loss of respect for him, because I interpret his lack of response as daily disrespect of me. He knows what I want, he knows what he promised, he isn't diametrically opposed to it being clean, he just doesn't do it. For example, right now he's laying on the couch watching tv.
I have given him the "speech," but it wasn't a bomb drop. It was more of a boiling frog scenario. The only real reaction I ever got from him was how wrong I was for "threatening D," that it betrayed his trust in me, that if I do then I'm a bad Christian and not a person of my word. He knows I'm currently only sticking around until S12 is out. He always "wants" to change, just like he always wants to lose some weight, he just doesn't.
My question (to which you said I was justifying) was just in response the many, many suggestions I read about people needing to "get happy with themselves." I absolutely agree that that's very important, even critical. But then what? It doesn't make us invincible. It doesn't mean we won't still be annoyed or get angry. It doesn't automatically make the other person look better in our eyes, in fact sometimes it makes them look worse because we're no longer willing to accept the cr@p. So then what? (Sorry if I came across badly in my question.)
AJ, I completely accept that other people have perspectives different than mine. And I'm fine with that, even enjoy it in conversation because I talk to myself way too much as it is and otherwise it would be just like talking to myself even more. However, you seem to think that it's impossible for two perspectives to be the same. Can you even consider that I could be absolutely right regarding my gma's sitch? Not identical in the minutia, but at least in concept? And again, regardless of her sitch, *I* don't appreciate being treated like a servant. I can't get a handle on my own M issues, I can't begin to address someone else's from 50 years ago.
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Who knows though right? We all look alike on my screen
Everything stil boils down to our perspective is only ours and to us changing ourselves because we're motivated to do so.
The only thing that I will point out is your THOUGHT on the dynamic of your grandparent's R. Your projection of how you feel about that R and how you feel it relates to your sitch. Whether or not your gm was or was not a servant. Why do you feel a need to be RIGHT about it?
These are little cues that come up from time to time, that are the trigger for me to post that "you still aren't ready, yet"...
You are still wanting your H to change. That waiting, makes you stuck. Stuck, makes you frustrated. Frustrated allows you to keep doing what you are doing, which does not appear to be helping you.
Your H will only change when he is finally motivated to do so. Right now, he is not motivated to change into the person you WANT him to be. I still don't think you are even clear on HOW that person is supposed to be, so how can he be clear on it?
HE will MATCH to YOUR changes... WHEN YOU CHANGE...
So far, there is little change in you that I can tell. I don't mean that disrespectfully. I simply mean that from the moment you began posting here, your motivation has been to get your H to change. Some of the things you have done are positive. Whether they are helping make your R better, that is up to you to determine. That is your perspective. And from what you are saying, your perspective hasn't changed.
Simply in the context of your R, your life is not getting better. You may feel you have a great life, and it is only the R that is not so great. Still, it's the elephant on the table and it... has still not changed...
How are you going to change, to make change in your R?
Are you motivated to actually doing that, permanently?
Thanks for stopping in, Knightyme, and for sharing about your sitch.
I've been reading a lot about men and their general distaste for any discussion about feelings. From what you presented, you seem to run against the "norm," at least based upon the published stats. Considering what I've read and applying it in reverse in your case, I can see how your W might interpret your actions in a negative way, and how you might consider her response as "not caring" when she clams up.
So this is wonderful in that it sounds like you and I are in the same position relationally in the discussion arena. So what do you do? I can certainly see that you would want to be less animated, less loud, less vocal in general. And that's great, but as you said yourself, that doesn't change her. You're still in a R with a person that doesn't want to talk. So where to you go with that? How do you build a healthy M without discussion? How do you feel connected without conversation?
And I get the need to consider both perspectives. So great, let's say hypothetically, I take it upon myself to really, really understand H's perspective, which will be a miraculous accomplishment since any sort of discussion is off the table for us. So let's say that I understand that he wants an office because it makes him feel successful, and I ignore the fact that he doesn't do anything in there except shop ebay or craigslist, watch NCIS reruns, and prowl youtube. Oh, yes, and for a while, he was watching porn and secretly emailing his college sweetheart. But I'm going to ignore that because it's "my" perspective that those things are bad. It's his perspective that those things make him feel good. And it's his perspective that the dirty Kleenex on the floor is not a problem, or at least not enough of a problem to bend over and pick them up. And perhaps it's his perspective that I'm too anal/perfectionist about his office. And it's his perspective that overall it just is not a problem that his office is a pit, that he's perfectly comfortable in dirt and clutter.
Having done that, now what? What does that do for me/us?
I'm not sure what you read, but just to clarify, H has been the one that has lied and destroyed my trust. You're really being a great person by taking the approach of "giving" like you are. I confess that I'm not there right now. I'm still trying to heal and work on myself and don't have anything in me right now to go above and beyond.
