ILYBINILWY

[Crazyville]

The LBS has a very difficult road after these words are spoken. But they're not the only one. The WAS has already been traveling a very difficult road for some time before arriving at these words. Since this is the WAS forum, this thread will focus on the WAS, and the trials and pitfalls of the journey back. Considering that it's not unusual for the LBS to become a WAS in many cases, it applies to many sitch's here. Hopefully, we can share our insights and perspectives and help each other to find a way home.

First, it's important to understand that the WAS is not necessarily a villain. He/She is a person with deep hurt, unmet needs, and no hope of improving the M. Perhaps they feel like they tried it all. Perhaps they feel like they just aren't being heard. Perhaps they feel like they would rather be alone than continue as they have been. If the person is a LBS turned WAS, it's pretty much the same.

So the question begs, "When you've reached the end of your rope -- and let go of it -- how do you get hold of it again? How do you even want to, knowing you chose to let go of it in the first place, and knowing it's still going to be a huge climb, one that you didn't have the strength for when you were still holding on before?"

I think probably one of the biggest hurdles a WAS faces is the ability to open their heart again to the person that hurt them so profoundly. To find the desire to even want to consider going back. It's not about forgiveness, though that's often the blanket suggestion. It's about regaining the belief in something that you simply don't believe in, because now you know things that you can never un-know again.

I'd love to hear about your struggles and successes as a WAS. I'm going to copy in a number of posts that I thought really spoke to this topic. Feel free to add some of your own.

[Crazyville]

In response to the question, "What does it mean that 'her heart is closed/numb to me'?"

Oh boy… you think this is an easy question, but it’s probably one of the most difficult to answer and truth be told, I think it’s why I came back here. Because I’ve really been in limbo for the last year as to what to do and I’m far more frustrated with myself than anyone is with me.

Mach said it when he said that DB was real great at teaching us how to detach but not very good at showing us how to reattach.

When my H left, I was devastated (as many of us are on here), but I had the breakdown of breakdowns. Detaching for me became a matter of survival… literally. And there is trauma for me associated with that. The idea of letting him back in terrifies me because what if I get back to that breakdown again? And everyone can swing bats at me regarding nothing in life being guaranteed… intellectually, I get this, but the heart isn’t always so intellectual. There are days that I look at my H and I want to reach out to him, I want to hug him, I want to kiss him, I want to tell him that I love him back, I want the same things I’m supposing that he wants. But the fear can be paralyzing. Because some people seem to suffer trauma more deeply, they are far more scared to risk going back to that dark, ugly place.

It is so easy as the “wronged” spouse to be angry. To not understand. To stand on moral high ground. To be angry over affairs, nasty exchanges, seeming indifference or whatever… Now, sitting on the other side, I can tell you for sure that there are real people, with real trauma and real feelings behind the actions. I’m sure my H could come on here and tell you that he has tried so hard. He has been present. He has changed. He has taken care of me financially. He’s taken care of me when I’ve been sick. He has tried to stop drinking, stop working so much… and he would be right. Am I now the evil one because as the former LBS, I'm now the WAS? The issue resides inside of me. How do I resolve the issue in me?

I find it interesting that your W says she would have trouble dating. Very interesting. What she seems unable to articulate at the moment, is that she doesn’t trust ANYONE with her heart. This is so much more about her, than about you or your R at the moment. What she does understand is that she’s sad. And she’s trying real hard to get that figured out. In the meantime, she’s letting you into some pretty vulnerable feelings, something I’ve largely found myself unable to do. This is why I’m asking you to hang in there and not go dark. Because what she is doing is so damn hard and I’d really hate to see you blow the whole thing to kingdom come. Try to focus on what you can do to help her at the moment and less on the R. I know this sounds incredibly selfish on the part of your W. But again, instead of us demonizing and naming their actions, we’d be far better served in actually trying to figure out from where they come and try to help them out. Make sense?

[Crazyville]

It's always interesting to hear the LBS side of things, too, about what will fix it for the WAS that is thinking about returning.

Your W's feelings are classic, Crimson (progressing towards trust, but not regaining "those feelings" -- sorry I just can't open my heart, I wish I felt it but I don't, I know you are awesome "on paper" and in some "intellectual way" but I am numb to you".)

My W's were identical.

I seemed "right around the corner" from reconciliation with my W for months. From my own experience and observing other sitches on here, being nice or making love deposits to her will not "make her" love you. Those things remove distrust, ease animosity and salve hurts. I see them as setting the stage -- they are prerequisites to her possibly becoming un-numb to you, of remembering the good way that you can be, how you can be loving and a source of emotional support for her. I also think they definitely maintain love and feelings of attraction if they are already present in a relationship. But they (in my opinion) won't open her heart back to you and get her to find her feelings for you, that she has wished she felt for many, many months now.

In the large majority of the sitches on here if you really look at them closely, what leads the WAS to the final stages of healing and the step back towards the relationship is when the WAS feels loss in any of 3 forms:

1) they feel the loss of the LBS from their life [because the LBS is no longer available to them to connect with either because the LBS has finally rejected the crumbs of the relationship or has moved on in some other way [dating, less accessible, pushing for divorce, etc.]) or

2) often relatedly, they feel they lost control of the relationship situation (they are no longer the one dictating who is together with whom) or

3) their fantasy of what life will be like without LBS is not happening (loss of the fantasy of life without LBS -- LBS was not the source of all evil).

I can say that for me, this would not turn me toward my H. It would actually do the opposite. I would be relieved, as there would no longer be any requirement for me to try to reconcile it all in my head. The decision would be made for me and I would be grateful. I would walk away, knowing there was nothing left for me to do, like I had already decided some time before when I walked away in the first place.

I'm not saying it never works, but I would question the authenticity of the R. Wanting something because you don't want to lose it, or don't want someone else to have it, is not the same as wanting something when you have the free and open choice to do so.

[Crazyville]

So, an example of a WAS dilemma for me.

My H has lied to me in the past, about some pretty big things. We would talk about it, and he would promise to never do it again. Then he would do it again. It's not a compulsive thing where he's lying about every little thing, just about things where he finds himself in a corner and it's the only way he can get what he wants when he knows I would not be on board.

So, H has promised *again* that he won't lie to me and has given me all of his passwords so I can check up on him if I want. He hasn't lied for about 4 months, that I *know* of anyway. It never was a weekly event, so I'd have to wait a year or two to see any real change in his behavior, if that was even possible since the whole purpose of lying is to hide the truth. Plus, I have no interest in spending my time "checking up" on him. He could just as easily have an email account I don't know about, so what would be the point. He never came out and confessed upfront, it was always after-the-fact because I found out about it. So, really, who knows how many lies went by me that I just don't know about.

In trying to R my M with my H, I *know* that he is comfortable lying to me. Whether he is doing it at this moment or not doesn't really matter. The very real potential is there. Not in an "everybody has the potential for lying" sort of way, but proven so.

Knowing this, I just don't know how to open up to him again, to risk the next lie bomb, when I know he simply doesn't have a problem with it.

[cantslowdown]

Do you KNOW he is comfortable lying? I know that I lied, but I was never comfortable with it. I was ashamed of it and the things I lied about. I couldn't sleep. It always made me sick. When i finally came clean with everything, (to someone who seems to be on the way out anyway) it was a load off my conscience. Even if it doesn't work out for me, I can now live life honestly and truthfully in line with what I believe. It is hard. Its not the lies I told my spouse that were the worst, but the ones I told myself. The ones where SOMEDAY I would be able to clean up my messes with no one knowing and then I would be at peace. Unfortunately that is not the way it works.

[Crazyville]

Of course, no one can ever know what is in the other person's head. But it's probably irrelevant anyway, because he still did it even if he was uncomfortable. I have absolutely no reason to believe he won't do it again. Ignorance is bliss, but when that's gone, knowledge tends to bite.

[cantslowdown]

That's certainly fair enough as we all have our own motives. My wife and I have both screwed up royally as far as I am concerned. I wish she hadn't had gone where she is in her mind and was closer to you (I've read. She won't look at a relationship book and her affair is just my fault so I'd better get over it). You are right that the lbs/was dichotomy is such that you could be either one at many different times without knowing it until someone says ilybinilwy. I just wish we wouldn't have been so willfully blind to what was so blatantly obvious in retrospect. With her actions I waver between feelings of wah and lbs. My Dr has referred me to a psychologist and I'm looking forward to that for myself to help control anxiety.

[cantslowdown]

I guess the question with lying is have you/do you lie to him ever? My wife freely does now. She's not very good at it but she's going through what may even be mlc now. I feel like our mess is complicated but there's always a way. I agree that being able to check up does nothing for you. He has to become a different person. A better new person that you would want to get to know. It also takes true forgiveness on the hurt spouses part. That's the true miracle in a saved marriage I believe.

[AJM]

Hi CV. How's things going?

I see you're still struggling with a few things. To point something out:

The decision would be made for me and I would be grateful. I would walk away, knowing there was nothing left for me to do, like I had already decided some time before when I walked away in the first place.

I'm not saying it never works, but I would question the authenticity of the R. Wanting something because you don't want to lose it, or don't want someone else to have it, is not the same as wanting something when you have the free and open choice to do so.

Um, no you wouldn't. At least not for very long. Your happiness would be short-lived and you know it. You long for change, but you are emphasizing that change and projecting how you think it would go after that. Plans of mice and men.... You have no idea what would happen next I can assure you because you are basing it on your view of yesterday. And of course you would question the authenticity of the R. You'd be crazy not to. That's part of it.

If I summarize your posts, it seems you feel like you are at a cross-road trying to figure out how to let him in again. Your reason for not is that you've been hurt and you're blaming him for it. To point out another point of view - children blame others for their hurts. Adults realize we choose to be hurt or not. Not that it's right to let somebody continue to hurt us. That's what boundaries are for. That's what experience is for. Experience teaches us that nobody is "perfect" not even those of us asking the questions.

In other words, the hurt you feel is your reaction to things that happened around you and your way of dealing with them. But I have to ask, is it really your H that hurt you?? Is there more to that? Curious to know.

Regardless of whether or not you figure out which road to take you have a hard road to travel. If you leave, you have that hard road to travel and it won't be a bed of roses no matter how you view it now. That will go on for many years.

If you stay and find a way to open your heart to the man you married and have a family with, it also won't be easy. You are both behind a protective wall and hurling stones and expectations. Overcoming those is not going to be a bed of roses either but may have a more fulfilling outcome than starting your life over.

We're wired to want relationships, CV. It's how we're made. We can fight it. But you'll want one. It seems right now you feel like you can pick better and it would be so much easier if your H makes the choice for you. That's weak and flawed thinking. Nobody is perfect, but if you leave and are very very lucky, you'll find somebody who is willing to work on those imperfections with you. That's about the best you'll be able to hope for. That won't be possible until after you finish figuring out why you want change so much and why you can't open your heart to a man you once loved so deeply. Until then, you'll be going through the motions and will have some happiness and much work to do...

How do you learn to trust somebody you no longer do? Forgiveness isn't the answer. It's part of the answer. There's much much more.

Peace,
AJ

[SM34]

AJM that is deep! I had to read your post several times to grasp all the subtle lessons. I agree 100% even though I have only been at this 3 weeks now. My W who is the WAW I feel has the same issues you talk about and without her confronting those and figuring out why and how to change herself first, her relationship with OM will be flawed too, and will not be as fulfilling as she believes it will be. It is so much easier to look at the person you have spent so much time with, and have already discovered all of their flaws, vulnerabilities, temptations, etc.. and they have figured out yours, and then working together to make the marriage work. Leaving because someone else will be easier to work with or won't have the flaws your spouse has is wishful thinking. If your spouse ends the relationship forever, then you have no choice but to move on and take your chance. But, since I am an LBS, I feel that giving the marriage a shot is the best scenario, you have nothing to lose and everything to win!