The house is for sale. So sad, Family is breaking.

[FloydMan]

I am new to this forum today.
In July 2011 I found out my wife had an affair, I found evidence. We had been married for 15 years and have 2 girls aged 12 and 8 at the time. When I confronted her on it she lied and said it was a one-time thing. I immediately said I wanted a divorce. She begged and begged and cried to get us into therapy. She even wanted to renew our vows. I was hesitant and put it off. She kept telling me she loved me and wanted me and our family. We had just gotten a puppy too. Her story was not sitting well with me after a few weeks and I pressed her for more information and caught her in some discrepancies. She then cried and told me it was a 3 month affair but she ended it 3 months prior (From Jan – Mar 2011). She kept crying and telling me she could not bear to break up and begged again for counselling. I had family and friends push me to therapy, although they did not know of the affair just that I wanted out. I considered my kids and her crying and begging that seemed genuine. So, I agreed to counseling with a psychologist/therapist…one of the ‘generalist’ types referred by her family doctor. We started therapy in Aug 2011. I got the usual her needs not met etc etc. She was tough on me quite honestly and sometimes tough on my wife, but mostly me. We struggled with that therapist as they were only blaming sessions and nothing accomplished. This went on for 3 months and my wife could not handle the stress of dealing with her childhood issues etc when they came up. My wife would not put closure to the affair and never said “I will never do it again”. This bothered me a lot. The trust was broken and never felt she was doing anything to help me though that. In fact she became very cold and resentful that I was struggling with trust. I always trusted her before. Though I bought into the psychology of what happened, and was understanding I was frustrated with the process and did not want to go back to therapy, at least not that one. I could not stay married if that was the course, though I wanted my family so badly. My wife just would not help my anxiety which was driving her nuts. She felt she deserved trust but not earn it. I felt on an island and ganged up on. I accepted my 50% of the marital dysfunction after much self-reflection, but my wife would not accept hers claiming more like 90/10. Even the psychologist told her she was wrong and she got mad.
I was seeing another counselor on my own to get over the trauma, which was/is severe and she recommended her colleague as she took a calmer approach to therapy that was emotion-based therapy. My wife agreed to the change but was also angry for the change and really thought we could do it on our own as therapy was too emotionally draining for her….even though she pushed me into it. It was all about me. She said she did not want to give up so we started the new counselor in Oct 2011. It started rough but my wife liked her. The therapist was a very earthy type and it was a lot calmer. My wife is a very conservative, stiff upper lip business/banker type. Very outgoing and engaging. This therapist suggested we deal with the affair in 2 months, but it had to be dealt with at that point. We were convinced to read The 5 Love Languages which we both did. We bought into it and things were turning around. We had a nice November, December, great Christmas and took the kids to Disney for New Years. My wife was more amorous than ever. But every counseling session that was scheduled to deal with affair, my wife would change the topic as soon as we got in there. By end of February I could not take it anymore and let her know that we should separate. I was too stressed with her secrecy. She was crushed again and begged and begged for weeks. My heart softened with her pleas, begging and promises. I came back in and we began therapy again. It started to go well but every time I brought up the issue she would lose it. In April she said she loved me and was proud of me. I opened my mouth about the affair and told her I still cannot get over it unless she deals with it and had trouble trusting. I was either thinking she just could not deal with the guilt or she wanted a double life with a picture perfect family. I could not figure I out. We discussed separating but inside I really did not want to if it was just the guilt. She broke down and shut down and would not talk about it. In early May, in our session I brought up trust again and she that, “that’s it, I’m done!” That was our last session. The therapist made no attempt to turn it around. We have been separated since and been in separate rooms since. She has not wanted to reconcile and today we listed the house for sale. My kids are devastated and so am I. I really wanted it to work. I suspect she is seeing someone and is very private. She blames me for everything and has been nasty to me for months, often in front of the kids. Now it is getting very contentious legally and we are spending lots in legal fees. She wants more custody for support money. I have been closer and more available to the girls over the years. I make a bit more than she does and coach them in baseball at competitive level. I cook, I clean, I look after the dog. I feel so taken for granted. She is lost. Why did she beg and beg only months ago for this and make so many plans for us? Classic walk-away-wife from what I have read on it. She is bitter and resentful and for some reason does not trust me. I do not get that. I want to save this for some reason, but cannot. She has changed so much from a happy, giving person 2 years ago to a very self-centered person that has no emotion. My kids feel she does not care about their feelings. I know how they feel, How can she do this to a loyal, faithful husband that has worked his tail off providing for his family. She just blames, blames and blames me. I do not get the anger and spite. She is out for money. I had done well and worked so hard and made good money and was totally dedicated. I forgot about the relationship in some ways, but anything is workable, no? All she is focussed on now is divorce and it very litigious. It is getting very expensive. What a wasted of a family. People that are finding out now about our break-up said they were jealous of our handsome family and all what we were blessed with.
Sorry for the long post (and this is only a smidgen of the details) but I am sad and mad and hurt. I tried so hard…too needy I guess. I pushed her away further perhaps. She has been so cold and mean. How could I love her, but I think I do. This is not her at all. Not the lady I knew for so many years anyway.

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Most of us lose weight after BD.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

[sandi2]

I too welcome you to the community here at DB. You will need to post a few times to get off moderation. Don't give up if you don't see it right away.

What complaints did your wife give you about the MR?

It's very important to not pursue her in any way. You need to have a lot of self-confidence. That is attractive to women. Being needy, clingy, etc., is not attractive in a man. Some women even see a man who wants constant reassurance as a sign of weakness.

At first, when she thought you were walking away from her, she wanted you to stay. But when you started needing reassurance about the status of the A, the M, etc., it turned her off. So, don't do any of that any more b/c it doesn't work.

You say you can't trust her and that she'd have to earn it. Have you told her exactly what it would take in order to earn your trust again? I'm sure it includes no attempts at contacting OM, but is that all......or have you lost trust in every other area as well?

Even though the house has been put up for sale, the fact that you are still under the same roof means that you have a lot of opportunities to turn things around. But I have some suggestions as to what does not work with a WAW, if you're trying to save the M.

Don't ask her how she feels toward you, the M, or a D. Don't ask about her activities that don’t concern the kids or spending your money. Don’t discuss past problems. Don’t try to point out good things about being M. Don’t try to guilt her about what she’s doing to the kids, you, or others. Don’t use punitive behavior toward your W. Don’t make negative remarks. Don’t act nasty, mean, or cold. Don’t expect anything from her.

This is not all of the “don’ts” but if you can handle that much, you will accomplish a lot!

DBing is all about working on “you”……not your spouse. Your biggest challenge will be to not focus on her. You need to take a long hard look at yourself and see what you need to do to be a better man. Set some personal goals. Don’t make them about her. These are just about you. If she’s had complaints in the past, that should help you get started with improvements.

Stay active with your kids and a personal life. You have to get a life that does not include your wife. Keep your calendar full throughout the coming weeks. Don’t “wait” to see what her plans may be, but instead, you inform her that you have made plans for that date. You don’t explain in detail what your plans are. She no longer gets an account of your activities…and you don’t ask about hers. When she is with you, be sure to show your best personality, manners, and charm. When other women are around, make sure you show them the same qualities.

Shape up your personal appearance and make sure you are looking sharp all the time. You may look sexy wearing nothing but a pair of blue jeans, but the point is that you look good.

Your attitude must be one that says you are enjoying life. Some men are afraid the wife will think he wants to split up. But in reality, you’ve already messed up by letting her know how clingy you are, so now she needs to see a guy who is suddenly having a good time wherever he is.....and him having a good time does not depend upon her! He may be playing with the kids while she’s cooking dinner or on the computer……but if she hears the giggles from the kids……well, it touches a woman’s heart like nothing else can. But seeing you enjoying yourself as if you’re moving on…..will get her attention and even stir her curiosity. It causes you to be a much more interesting man and one who people like to be around.

You may learn that the work in saving your marriage is nothing like you thought it would be. You have nothing to lose here, right?

Come here every day so we can stay updated with your stitch.

[AnotherStander]

Welcome to the forums! I'm going to warn you right now that I don't think you'll like what I'm going to tell you, but in reading your post it seems pretty clear what happened here but somehow you don't see it. So I'm going to try to show you what it is. I don't intend for this to be critical, just trying to help you see things from another perspective.

I immediately said I wanted a divorce. She begged and begged and cried to get us into therapy. She even wanted to renew our vows. I was hesitant and put it off.

If you were so convinced about getting a divorce then, why do you want to save the M now? It sounds like all your talk about divorce and separation led your W to believe there was no hope for the M. She finally gave up. Every time you threatened D or S it clearly tore her to pieces (re- weeks of begging/ pleading each time). She finally started building a wall around herself to protect her emotions because she couldn't take the pain. Once the wall was strong enough, she was ready to call it quits herself. Unfortunately she's now done and ready to move on.

Regarding this:

She was tough on me quite honestly and sometimes tough on my wife, but mostly me. We struggled with that therapist as they were only blaming sessions and nothing accomplished.

My questions to you is why was she so tough on you? I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like you may not have been the best husband and some issues were uncovered in MC that needed addressing. It sounds like you just viewed it all as a personal attack and didn't do anything to change yourself. Nearly every affair happens because of problems in the M. It is a symptom, not a cause. So, what are your faults? What are you doing to change them? Because your W will not want to return to the old you, but may want to have a new R with a different you.

I accepted my 50% of the marital dysfunction after much self-reflection, but my wife would not accept hers claiming more like 90/10. Even the psychologist told her she was wrong and she got mad.

Of course she did, because all she wanted was validation. She got the opposite of that. Read up in DR about validation, it's an important task you'll have to engage in.

Why did she beg and beg only months ago for this and make so many plans for us?

Like I said above, she built a wall around herself and gave up on the M. You told her over and over again it was over, so she finally came to believe it.

Classic walk-away-wife from what I have read on it.

Not really, most of the time there's not this situation where the LBS tried pushing the WAS out the door like that. Around here we always say don't ask for S or D if you don't want it, because you WILL get it if you push for it.

She is bitter and resentful and for some reason does not trust me. I do not get that.

She doesn't trust you because you told her over and over again that the M was over. So now you say you want to work on it, why should she believe you?

I want to save this for some reason

How is she supposed to trust you when you don't even know if you want to save the M yourself?

She has changed so much from a happy, giving person 2 years ago to a very self-centered person that has no emotion.

That's your perception. In fact, all those emotions are still there, she just keeps them inside the wall now. She won't show them to you because she doesn't trust you anymore. Now that she's decided it's over, she will maintain this new persona for quite a while. She won't start letting her guard down for months, and only then if she sees and believes your changes.

How can she do this to a loyal, faithful husband that has worked his tail off providing for his family. She just blames, blames and blames me. I do not get the anger and spite. She is out for money. I had done well and worked so hard and made good money and was totally dedicated.

This attitude will absolutely guarantee the death of your M. You've got to let go of that belief that you are perfect and she is crazy. DB'ing is 100% about YOUR faults. Work on YOU. If you fool yourself into thinking you're perfect, you've lost the race before you've even left the starting blocks.

Forget about returning to the old M, it's dead and gone. What you have to do now is change yourself and give her time and space to sort her thoughts and to also appreciate the new you. It'll take her months to start to believe the changes are real and not just tricks to get her back. So you're going to need a lot of patience.

[FloydMan]

Wow, I really appreciate the input, and the candor. I don’t take offense to it… I need it! Hard to keep posts short.
I turned around after a therapist talked to me and view the affair in a totally different light. I read After the Affair, we went to counselling and I bought into how this happened. As for previous problems, all she wanted quality time she said and we were both so busy that we weren’t giving it to each other. I would get frustrated too and took on more coaching and worked hard and did so much for the kids. We simply forgot about each other and did not realize we had the same problems. We both agreed to that is what happened starting about 4 years ago of disconnecting. She never let me know how she was feeling about that, but I guess neither did I. We both would spoil each other in other ways with favors, gifts and cards etc. She said I was the best husband in the world weeks and days before her affair. We both feel the other was controlling in the relationship. I am far from perfect and always acknowledged where my faults are. I addressed many of them. I was always a confident person, but lost that a bit and I know that bothered her. I lost it a lot more after her affair. It was so hard.
I did get clingy when I was brought back in and wanted it to work again. I definitely went wrong in this area. I maybe was too obsessive. I just wanted it to bet better. It was very confusing. I was never clingy in our marriage, and she acknowledges that. I read DB a couple months ago and wish I read it a year or more ago. It makes so much more sense. I started the 180 about 2 months ago and now trying Last Resort Technique.
Definitely she lost hope when I was so unsure what I wanted and made her feel guilty about the affair and not deal with it. The therapist said as well that it was time to deal with it as we were coming around in the winter and all was working pretty good in the winter months. I definitely wanted the family and marriage but the breach of trust really knocked me out. I always had the “if that ever happens, I am out” thought. But when it actually happens, it is very confusing. I trusted her and not to sound like a martyr, but I never, ever lied or hid anything from her. My life was an open book, but she wanted to keep her life and such very private. She was given clear direction from 3 therapist on how to handle building trust after breaching it, and also the book. If she read DB, she would see the same courtesies or etiquettes to extend the BS. She is a banker, so since we were married she assumed the finances and is now not forthcoming with information. We grew a big debt over time. Not blaming her, but I was always told “we were fine” when I would inquire. She is a spendaholic but I am happy to let her spend, but when it makes sense. That was/is her outlet.
I wish I could convince her to do the 2 day intensive with Michele. I would rather spend that money than on litigation.

[FloydMan]

You all make so much sense. I definitely got clingy. I was never that way before all this broke last year. I did come to understand why the A happened. Neither of us were perfect. I worked and changed so many things, but this clinginess really turned her off. She feels I can't trust or forgive her, but I guess I demonstrated that with my words in May. Both therapists said she cannot deal with her childhood wounds or acccept she i part to blame for the disconnect. Perhaps too much guilt about the A makes her not see that?
No, I was not a perfect husband but always was told I was. Goes to Michele's point of when they stop complaining. We did have good, regular sex. She still says that was never the problem. She still thinks I am very handsome. She is very beautiful. We lost connection. I found my escape in my kids, coaching, work. The stress and toll of it all took something away from me and I lost some confidence as I felt I was not getting the intimacy (not sex) I wanted from her. I guess we kinda felt the same way but never discussed it and took or own routes for escape. I was hurt and confused. Just never got the "I will never do that again" assurance. That created anxiety which drove her nuts and ai was never that type before. Never was suspicious but now she feels I watch every move. She accused me of have a PI and cameraa's in the house. I had done neither. Sometimes her accusations are way out there. I do want to save this marriage. My kids are devastated too.

[FloydMan]

Anotherstander, I get all your points totally. I definitely am not perfect, but was loyal and faithful. I came to terms with my faults and had worked on them and continute to work on others. She still says I am an amazing father but she wants custody. I have always cooked, cleaned among many chores. We split duties equitably and she agrees to that. She agreed to shared custody, until she saw the lawyer.
My 14 year old daughter posted on her FB page a picture of the for sale sign with the caption : "I hate everything" with a broken heart symbol. I held and hugged her and told her how much I love her. My 10 year old threw a fit about the sign and yelled at her mother. Her mother was so cold with her and only got mad back and told her to snap out of it. No consoling. My 14 year old told me this as I was at work at the time when that happened. I have been consoling them and talking to them about their own couselling which they reject. My wife has been so angry and mean spirited for several months. She does not want me to be nice to her or do her any favors. She says she will never do anything for me including my laundry. I asked her not to months ago and several times since yet she keeps doing it. She said again last night she will not do it, yet she did today. The other day I walked the dog in the cold and came back and she had a latte waiting for me to warm me up. I don't get it.
I do want my marriage and family. I was hurt so bad and felt like a victim. I get how that works now and should not have. She had wanted 2 years to work on the M and only gave it 7-8 months. I think we needed a solutions based therapy first to get us good and then the other type. Michele's book makes so much sense of what happened and why. I pray not too late.

[FloydMan]

How can I get her to look at DB, and quickly? I know it is patience, but time does not seems to be on our side. I was stupid and left the book for her 2 months ago and she gave it right back. I do want my marriage....not he recent one, but rather the one for the first 10-11 years, and even betetr. We treasured that. Litigation and divorce is clearly worse than working it out. She seems so blind to the hurt in my kids eyes and their actions. I would do anything to get her to meet Michele with me in Boulder CO.

[FloydMan]

Man, she is angry. Will not look at me or deal with co-parenting properly. No cooperation or courtesy on any front - legal, finances, coparenting, dog etc. Getting very litigous. She wants kids and dog. No way! This could have been resolved if she was open about her life and not so private in light of her breach. She does not want to be controlled, but rather in control. She does not want to reconcile. I do not want to control, just wanted common courtesy. Says her father was controlling and monitored her. She accuses me of having PI on her and hidden cameras. She is paranoid. I just expected openness like I was/am.

[AnotherStander]

I definitely am not perfect, but was loyal and faithful.

So was (am) I. However, that's not enough as both of us have learned. As men we think that women want loyalty, faithfulness and a stable home and that if they have those they are happy. They do want those things, but it's not enough for them to be happy. They need emotional support and nurturing more than anything. When we get busy parenting, we quit giving our wives those things. It's enough for us to get sex a couple of times a week, sure we want the emotional connection too but we can get by with sporadic sex. Women can't. Their emotional needs are quite different from ours and sex now and then does not meet their emotional needs. When their love tank sits on empty for a long time that's when they start wanting out.

I came to terms with my faults and had worked on them and continute to work on others.

That's great. But keep in mind she'll need to see consistent changes in you for months before she starts believing they're real.

My wife has been so angry and mean spirited for several months. She does not want me to be nice to her or do her any favors.

It's possible she's doing that to try to drive you away. My W treated me poorly for a while and then came to me and told me she just couldn't do it anymore. I asked her why she did it in the first place and she said she thought it would be easier for me to get over her. That is some kind of twisted logic, but when you're dealing with a WAS you get to see all kinds of craziness. But that may be why she tells you that and then shows you little acts of kindness. She thinks it'll help you move on, but she feels guilty for treating you bad.

How can I get her to look at DB, and quickly?

Don't, Michele says in DR (can't remember if it's in DB too) not to show your spouse the book or talk about what's in it. The book is for you and you alone. It's important that your W not know about DB'ing techniques, because if she does she will see you using these techniques as "tricks" to get her back.

I know it is patience, but time does not seems to be on our side.

Time is absolutely on your side, even if she's pushing for D. Just remember that D is just a piece of paper. Plenty of reconcilations happen after D.

She seems so blind to the hurt in my kids eyes and their actions.

That's what you see, but you don't know what's going on inside her. She is probably confused, in pain and in turmoil. My W dropped the bomb almost 6 months ago and just admitted over the weekend that she's terribly confused and doesn't know what she wants, and that she's been that way the ENTIRE TIME. This after months of acting cool, calm and confident on the outside, like leaving me was the greatest thing ever.

No cooperation or courtesy on any front - legal, finances, coparenting, dog etc. Getting very litigous.

When you say she's not cooperating from a "legal" POV, please clarify, are you pushing for D and trying to get her to agree to your terms? Because if you're DB'ing, you should never mention D or help with D. Let her deal with it. Often the WAS will talk a lot about D and argue/ fight over things, but if they're left to handle the filing themselves they'll drop it. There's something about seeing it on paper that makes them shy away from it. Not always, but much of the time.