Hello! 20 year marriage teetering on the brink...

[Soul.Searching]

I do my toe nails in summer not winter lol. It was almost summer when he left.

[keep_going]

Heck my H told me at one point it was because I didn't wear dresses and do my nails!!! WTF??

Wow...
There was an old thread where people posted the craziest things their MLC/ WAS had said to them. It was pretty funny. This one definitely belongs in that list.

AnotherStander - sorry for the hijack! Now back to your regularly-scheduled program.

[Beardown]

Hi Another I just wanted to say thanks for the book reference. I read through the first two love languages and saw clearly she was about quality time and quality conversation. Why I couldn't see it years ago when she was trying to tell me.

[labug]

I don’t see myself doing that, after all this work who could just fall back to old habits? Plus I don’t even think about the 180’s anymore, they’re just me now. And the way I look at it, W doesn’t want to go back to the old M and frankly I don’t either. I would like to build a newer, better R with W. She doesn’t want to right now, but that’s my hope- that someday she will.

Agreed.

Keep hoping.

[AnotherStander]

No fighting over here. No monster either. We live together, do things together and generally get along good, she's just not "In Love" and therefore thinks she needs to move on.

Yeah, that sounds very familiar!

[*]

I don't have the book, but I've read parts of it online. I'm not sure more fighting would have benefited our particular sitch, probably would have hurt it. When I was able to get W to open up about what she felt the problems in our M were, most of them centered around arguments (fights) we had had. And the ones she talked about that bothered her the most were from 10+ years ago!! Our MC pointed out that there are 3 levels of communication- child, adult, parent. She made the point that rather than argue/ fight, we should communicate grievances adult-to-adult. But looking back I would go "parent" and my W would shrink down to "child", so she felt belittled. This is something she got really upset about and bottled up inside.

so I took an assertiveness course, and now try to air any issues I have asap, instead of stuffing them.

I'm extremely assertive and am the type to get issues resolved immediately rather than letting them stew. But W is the opposite. It's easy for people like us to go parent-child in arguments. But since learning about this I've been working on communicating to her adult-adult and it's worked quite well.

[*]

I think this stems from us never, ever making time for the two of us. No date nights at all. Our entire lives revolved around the kids. Sure we'd lock the door and ML now and then, but I see now a M cannot survive on that little trickle of intimacy. We still maintained a R after the first kid, but it became more difficult after the 2nd and just stopped after the 3rd.

I used to think he had such great temper but now looking back, it wasn't all that healthy.

I really think people just look for excuses to explain why they want to leave. I've read some women say they're leaving because they were SAHM's and never got to explore their career and they resent their H because of it. Then others resent their H because they always had to work when all they wanted to be was a SAHM. Some leave because they say there's too much arguing. Others say they're leaving because there's not enough arguing. Some say their spouse is too distant, others say they smother them. Too much sex. Not enough sex. Too many kids. Not enough kids. Too many hobbies. Not enough hobbies. The thing is, no one is perfect, but many people expect perfection in their spouse. WAS's think they can leave and find perfection in someone else. They can't, but there's no convincing them of that. So we give them time and space so they can figure out that the real demons live inside them rather than in their spouse and they have to figure out how to silence the demons so that they can enjoy life again.

I think a lot of the time, it doesn't matter what we do, if the OP has deep enough issues, then they will find any excuse they can.

Exactly!

Heck my H told me at one point it was because I didn't wear dresses and do my nails!!! WTF??

LOL! That's classic!

I know I have made mistakes, I know I could have handled things differently but ultimately I'm starting to think that this was inevitable no matter what I had done.

I pretty much feel the same way. We had a very good marriage. Sure there were things we could have worked on, but great marriages are great because the spouses work at them, not because they give up and walk away at the first sign of discontent. We could have a great M if W was willing to work on it like I am, but for now she'd rather just give up.

I think that a lot of the WAS has such deep inner demonds that it doesn't matter what we do or don't do before BD. they will find some reason to blame us for their feelings.

Exactly, it's the whole happiness trap thing. They think happiness comes from others and that if they're not happy they just need to change their R. The book The Happiness Trap goes into this at length and about how society and Hollywood give us a completely false perception of life- we’re trained that we’re supposed to be happy ALL the time and if we’re not then something is wrong. Truth is we all experience a full range of emotions each day, happiness is just one of them. It’s wrong to view some emotions as good and others as bad because then we try to chase the “good” ones and push the “bad” ones away. The harder we push, the bigger and badder they are when they return. The book teaches that we should accept all emotions as part of life and quit trying to fight them, but learn to live in harmony with them. Our true goal in life shouldn’t be happiness, but contentment. Because happiness, sadness, anger, etc. are all fleeting. We need to find a place where we can be content regardless of our emotions. I think in a lot of ways that’s what DB’ing is about- teaching us to be content with our situation regardless of what our spouse is doing. Because if we’re content, we will be fine whether the spouse returns or not, and we will be fine no matter how long we decide to stand.

[AnotherStander]

Journaling update:

D18 visited from college last weekend, and again she stayed with me all weekend. We did all go to D15's game together Friday (along with MIL). Then we all went to the homecoming parade Saturday and had lunch afterwards (I always pay for the group meals as I always have). W and I are getting along as good as (or probably better than) before BD, it's really strange because when we're together I'm sure any bystander would swear we were happily married. It's odd to me that she seems so happy spending time together, but then drives off to her house each night. Anyway, since W didn't get to see a lot of D18 I called W Sunday morning and asked if she wanted to go to lunch with us. She refused saying she had been eating all morning and wasn't hungry. That seemed odd, you'd think she'd at least go and have tea just to visit since D18 would be heading back to college in a few hours. But I didn't ask, just said "no problem" and off we went. When we got back I put a movie on for D18 and S9 while D15 took a nap. D18 said she texted W and asked her to come by. She did, and for the first time in quite a while she just hung out in the living room with us. She even laid down on the couch with S9 and napped for a while. Later, S9 gave her a hug in the kitchen and said "daddy, group hug!" He is such a cutie! So W, S9 and I had a nice hug and W didn't act like I had the plague, LOL! She did call me "babe" again over the weekend, and again I just reacted like I hear it every day, but cataloged it in my head because it's so unusual for her to say that these days.

We've had absolutely no R, M or D talks. I keep thinking of the picnic/ castle analogy, I'm just trying to have a nice picnic and let her join when she wants and duck back into the castle when she wants, but the picnic continues regardless. No pressure.

I haven't mentioned my GAL efforts much here, but they’re in full swing. I continue to lift weights on a regular schedule and have gained about 10 pounds since starting over 4 months ago. D15 and I went to a painting class two weekends ago and had a blast doing that. I think even D15 was surprised at how well she did on her painting, she somehow convinced herself she’s not artistic but she really is. D18 wants to go to one with me when she's out on Christmas break. S9 and I have been going on motorcycle rides together. D18 and I have been going to see movies when she's in town. I've also been keeping in closer touch (lunch, phone, texting) with old friends and have gone clubbing a few times with one of them who is just now getting back together with his WAW from 2 years ago. He's been a great support to me, he understands like almost no one outside of this board does. I've also been spending a lot of time gardening, which is quite a job on my 1 acre heavily-landscaped lot. I've been staying pretty busy! I actually have other hobbies (flying R/C planes, helis and quads and building models) that I just haven’t had time for. I used to play a lot of AA and A volleyball and really want to get back into it. Unfortunately I missed signups at my gym AGAIN, so I’ve got to wait until the next league.

I seriously don’t know how people detach when they have kids. It’s just not happening for us. Let me give you an example of our life- my W has the kids this week. As I’ve mentioned before, our arrangement is she gets them ready in the mornings no matter whose week it is and I pick them up in the afternoons no matter whose week it is. So I had the kids at my house yesterday after work/ school. I took S9 for a motorcycle ride, when I got back W was there to take him to scouts. So D15 and I ate, hung out and watched TV and babysat W’s puppy while they were out. When S9 and W got back to my house, W realized she needed to take D15 to the store, so I helped S9 get his homework done, fed him and watched a movie with him. When W and D15 got back W and I took the dogs out back and discussed arrangements for D15’s upcoming bday. By the time W left with the kids to go back to her house it was almost 10 pm! Every day isn’t like this, but stuff like this happens so frequently that it seems the only difference between now and before S is that W sleeps under a different roof. I just feel like telling her “W, this would all be a lot easier if you’d just move back in!!”

[TD35]

^^^ Great post and response above. I can relate in so many ways and learn so much from you two. Thank you.

[Starbag]

That's so true AS! I recall a few "excuses" my H used to say how we wouldn't work, and some of the things that he is telling me now were the things that he said he didn't mind and even appreciated before!!

I feel sad that he is trying so hard to make me back off, to want to get out, and I felt like he is winning. He is having fun and he doesn't need me. I am not contacting him since I so know that I am not doing myself any good. This whole thing is just going nowhere to me right now. He told me that I made his life great before, now I don't know how to make his life great anymore. I feel like his "fantasy" will be there with him..... He always took care of me, so... without me, I don't know if he would miss me at all. We have no children, nothing really that would bond us right now....

[ForeverYoung]

I don't have the book, but I've read parts of it online. I'm not sure more fighting would have benefited our particular sitch, probably would have hurt it. When I was able to get W to open up about what she felt the problems in our M were, most of them centered around arguments (fights) we had had.

Not fights, lol, (I know, I used that word too) but constructive arguments. Ones that actually resolve issues.

I'm extremely assertive and am the type to get issues resolved immediately rather than letting them stew. But W is the opposite. It's easy for people like us to go parent-child in arguments. But since learning about this I've been working on communicating to her adult-adult and it's worked quite well.

Which is where you and I differ. You said one of your issues was yelling at the wife and kids, where as I NEVER yelled, and preferred to "keep the peace" at all costs, which made me appear un confident or weak. She really never fought much either, but the few times she did, my calm refusal to engage would only infuriate her even more! The bottom line is we need to improve our conflict resolution skills, which is one of the things I've been working on.

Because happiness, sadness, anger, etc. are all fleeting. We need to find a place where we can be content regardless of our emotions. I think in a lot of ways that’s what DB’ing is about- teaching us to be content with our situation regardless of what our spouse is doing. Because if we’re content, we will be fine whether the spouse returns or not, and we will be fine no matter how long we decide to stand.

Agreed, and excellent point. I know I was quite content before BD, then went into a tailspin upon hearing The Speech, and now have steadily been becoming more and more content, even with the knowledge that my wife may never recommit to the marriage.

[ForeverYoung]

Actually, a "fight" now and then is a good thing, lots of passion during and after, which can lead to a tighter connection. It's when fighting becomes the norm that it becomes destructive.