Frustrated and Confused

[AnotherStander]

My H and I had a long talk yesterday. From what I got our of the conversation is the following:

Good! He's opening up! What was your response to the conversation? Did you argue with his points or did you validate his feelings? Hopefully the latter Say things like- "I hear you saying you're afraid of being hurt again, it sounds like you're frustrated and worried, I can certainly understand why you feel that way." You're not admitting guilt or even agreeing with his comments, you're validating his emotions.

-He feels like all of the changes I have done in the last 3 months were acts to get me to stay. He said "Now that I finally have you acting like a Wife I want to go" A little too late......

Again, just validate his feelings. 3 months is a blip on the radar to him, it takes much longer for our spouses to believe 180's are real and not just tricks to lure them back.

-Me going out and not telling him where I was going, he perceived that as me stepping out on the marriage again.....

OK, well what you did was recommended DB'ing as far as being mysterious, but remember that DB'ing is also about not going down cheeseless tunnels. If you do something that doesn't work, then quit doing it. If being "mysterious" is doing more harm than good, it's probably best to stop that and be more accountable to him about your whereabouts.

He said a lot. I have been reading the DR book and I have been detaching and GAL. It is very unlike me just to leave and not give him my whereabouts. I had mentioned this to my therapist that I thought he would see this as me having another affair, and that is exactly what has happened.

Don't worry about it, just quit doing it. DB'ing is all about constantly examining what you're doing and making adjustments, stopping things that don't work and trying something else. It's just part of the process. Just be thankful that you're getting such great feedback from H.

I am not sure if the DR book is giving me the right advice for my particular situation??????

Look at the chapter on cheeseless tunnels again. DR is very clear that your approach needs to be flexible and that you need to evaluate what is working and not working every 2 or 3 weeks. DR is not a step-by-step instruction manual, it is a set of tools. We each use those tools in a slightly different way.

Good luck!

[Mystify]

Hi Kaffe Diem,
Thank you very much for your reply. Apparently I was taking the "Detach" too littery. I really thought it meant to emotionally detach from my H, in the same way he was to me. My counselor did say to "listen" to his emotion and not so much the exact words he is saying. I already know my H has a hard time choosing his words so I have been really trying to understand what points he is trying to make.

I had a PA affair 3 years ago but my H had a EA 3 months ago. So as far as trying to understand his points I do. I get his actions, I get his feelings when it came to this. He said It really started out as someone who was "Going through the same thing as he was" "More of a sounding board" then she tried to progress the relationship and that was when I found out. He hid it from me, he denied it at first, until I found her nude pictures in his email account. Anyway. I get it, I get why he felt drawn to her, I get why he felt connected. I have been there. So I understand. But for him I had the PA, he thinks that was much worse than the EA he was having. I don't necessarily agree because I really do not consider our actions a game of "Who did what worse" So for now for me they are both inappropriate.

I do think I should table the "Mysterious" thing. It was really not working for me and to be honest I felt worse doing it. I knew he would perceive it the way he was and I was right. Being more open is more my way. It is just difficult now because he is not telling me things, like where he going and what not.

I am Galing I have taken up agility with our dog, and I am playing Fantasy Football for the first time. So those have been fun for me. My H does not like football so he just does not get it.

The 5 Love Languages. Yes I am familiar. I did not read the book yet but there was a little quiz on line on their site you can take that would tell you what yours was. I had 2 that were a number off from each other. The interesting thing was one is "Words of Affirmation" This actually came out in our first round of counseling. He would never tell me if he noticed something I did, or even say "Love you" to me. When this came out he was very mad. He thought it was "Stupid" for me to want a verbal reassurance. For him his actions should have spoke volumes. Him working all the time, or landing a new job that would pay more but would require more of his time. He thinks I should have see this as his way of telling me he loved me instead of him actually saying it.

So with that said without me really asking him to take the love language test I would say his is "Acts of Service" Because he thought by him doing things was showing me love. I would like to have his actually take the quiz but I really doubt now he would be up for it.

As far as things he has complained about me. I do have a few. I will compose those for a new post.

[~ kd ~]

Generally speaking, from the perspective of the BS (betrayed spouse), there is emotionally very little difference, if at all, between a PA and an EA. In many ways, it really is an issue of lost trust. So while it is unfortunate you were the recipient of the betrayal, it obviously helps you understand.

So we don't really have to look at why the two of you stepped out of the M, because there's certainly rationalizations, in the end, you are BOTH dealing with having to fix broken trust, among other things.

I think the 5LL online quiz is decent, although the book really helps to flesh it out. I did not find it an easy read as I lost context on some of the descriptions. Still, a great reference book to have on hand.

Let's remove the idea that your H thinks it's "stupid" for you to need words of affirmation. He doesn't understand, in the same way that you would not have previously understood his need for "acts of service". You could be on the mark for the both of you, but keep watching because sometimes one LL might look like a different LL, to the observer. As you have done, you want to look at how they treat others, because often it's how they want to be treated.

I will mention though, that my W's LL is very likely different than how she comes across, and I believe that's because of her upbringing. For example, she showed as "acts of service", yet without a doubt, she is "physical touch", possibly with "gifts" as a strong second. The reason I am positive of this is because, when she receives "acts of service", she does not appear to appreciate them. She DOES like "physical touch", touching feet under the covers, she touches and brushes people when out socially, close proximity. She also gives gifts a lot. So again, what you see is not always what you get.

Having said that, you can experiment with that. Again, let me lead by saying that initially, you will not likely get your H to start giving you words of affirmation. Eventually, he may, but for now, take that off your immediate goal.

Can you remember a time when you provided an act of service for your H... ok, everyone get their minds out of the gutter... Did he appreciate it? Why do you think so (in either possible answer)?

What kinds of acts of service could you do for your H? List them here please, so we can look through whether they might be pursuing. FTR, I want to review pursuit distance with you, because pursuing might be something you SHOULD be doing if that is not your past behaviour. Otherwise, if you should NOT be pursuing. Anyhow, the point is, providing your H with benign acts of service will give you an idea of whether he is or is not receptive.

On the other side of that coin, be aware of when your H might be providing you with an act of service that is intentionally because he loves you vs. simply something that needed to be done. When he DOES do an act of service, let him know you appreciate it. That serves two purposes. First, he knows that you recognize his act, and secondly, you are feeding back to him in your LL, which may encourage him to start to reciprocate.

As all things DB, these are things that you would want to do for a long enough period of time to see if they are working. At first, your H may pull back from this type of engagement. Keep doing it, just slow it down or be more subtle with it and lets see how it works after a couple or three weeks.

In the mean time, would you say that generally speaking, throughout your M, were you the pursuer or the pursued?

[Mystify]

Ill answer your questions in your most recent post in a bit........



Things my H has complained about me to me.

1. He thinks I ask to many questions. Example- He came home from work one day and he had a Band-Aid on his hand. I asked him how he hurt his hand, he said "Nevermind" and I just kept on asking him what happened. Basically he hit it with a hammer. I do not see why he did not want to tell me. Maybe he felt dumb for hitting his hand with the hammer. I really did not think that but when he was coming home with electric tape around his fingers I wanted to know why.
-So I am trying not to ask to many questions and just let it go. This is very hard for me because I am very Analytical.

2. He said I always get what I want - He said no matter what happens I always come out "Smelling like Roses" Traffic ticket I get off, we needed money for a down payment on a house I got the money, I get laid off from my job I get a better paying job.......etc

3. He thinks I am lazy - I would come home from work and expect him to have dinner made. He was home 2 hours before me and if dinner was not made I was a bit miffed. It takes me 2 hours to get home from work so I am not home until 7. He is home at 5. I guess back in the day I would get mad, now I just do not expect him to do it. So I get home and I make dinner. I guess I have lowered my expectations here.

4. I ask his opinion too much - I think this may play into the I always get what I want. When he told me that I decided to ask his option about everything. And his response to me is always "do what you want" or "I do not care" So I will ask again and I get the same response. So I get frustrated he is not answering and he get frustrated I am asking. I get what I want because he does not have an opinion.

5. He thinks I do not hear him - This just came up when he said he wanted to leave. In the beginning I did the "don't leave" thing that was before I found DB. Now when he brings it up I do not say much. I am not sure what he wants me to do when he says these things, Pack his stuff? The last thing he said was he wants to sell our house. I did not say anything when he said this. I do not want to sell it, but I also know if we are not both living there we could not afford it. So I just did not say anything......not sure if that was the right thing to do or not?


I am sure there are more, Most of this just came up. I did ask him why he had never addressed these things with me in the past and his response was "I loved you so I would just overlook them" I mean really!! How am I supposed to know I am doing these things that annoy him if he never tells me?

[Mystify]

Kaffe Diem,
As I read through your post now I am really not sure what his LL may be. In the past I think I would say "Acts of Service" but now I am really not sure. I have been trying to do "Acts of Service" but he is just seeing that at me trying to keep him in the marriage.

Example: I would do the laundry, but now I am sure his is done first then our S's and then mine. I would usually make him bring it down and then back up stairs. Now I just do it my self I do not ask. I cleaned out our office that really needed a good go through. Since we moved into our house 7 years ago, it has kind of become a dumping ground. So I went through the whole thing and totally cleaned it out. I have cleaned out 5 closets in the house and re organized the kitchen. This is just a few things. None of which he even commented on. During one of our "discussions" he said "I notice everything you do, but because you need praise for things you should automatically be doing I am not going to give it to you"

When he says stuff like that I am just hearing spite. Sure these are things I have neglected and doing them has given me a huge since of self accomplishment. I tell you when I cleaned out the office I was very proud of myself. It was a huge job and I got it done. My S told me "Mommy the office is so clean now. You did a lot of hard work" and to be honest that was enough for me....

I think right now it is so hard to see what his LL is. He is concentrating so much on detaching from me I just cannot tell. I originally thought it might be touch, but when I try to initiate anything I ask him what he wants and he responds "you are running this show" "whatever you want"

Over the weekend he fixed my Brakes. But now I am thinking it was a necessity. If he did not do it it would cost too much $$. This is a hard one because through our marriage he would work long hours, and in my opinion sometimes was not necessary. But to him, he worked long hours to earn more $$ so we could do extra things. I took this is he would rather work than be with me. (Back story I have always made 2x's as much $$ as him, sure him working longer is nice but it was never a necessity)
So right now he is not doing anything for me that is out of love. At least I do not see it.

Pursuer or the pursued? Good Question. I think through our our relationship this has flipped flopped. Dating I was the Pursuer then a few years into our M switched to him. I was pulling away (We had a hard time having kids so I got depressed I had 6 miscarriages etc) Then the A happened. He was still the Pursuer but then his EA happened and it turned to me. So there has been a lot of flop flopping.....

[~ kd ~]

I have been trying to do "Acts of Service" but he is just seeing that at me trying to keep him in the marriage.

That is code for "I need space". ie. He's feeling pressure, so soften things or back off a touch. Also though, again context here, he might SAY that... but what's his actions telling you? Is he distancing from you or is he just using pouty words to try to scare you away...

1. He thinks I ask to many questions. Example- He came home from work one day and he had a Band-Aid on his hand.
-So I am trying not to ask to many questions and just let it go. This is very hard for me because I am very Analytical.

OK, good. IF his LL were words of affirmation, then he MIGHT want you to ask questions. In this case, he probably WAS embarrassed. So let him lead. If he wants to tell you about something like that, then let him bring it up.

2. He said I always get what I want - He said no matter what happens I always come out "Smelling like Roses" Traffic ticket I get off, we needed money for a down payment on a house I got the money, I get laid off from my job I get a better paying job.......etc

While that doesn't sound like a valid complaint, take note. He sees YOU as "successful", even in mistakes or accidents, and wonders why HE isn't, so he's jealous. Yes, that's his problem. Thing is, if you bring your success up to him (looking for words of affirmation), he might likely see it as you rubbing his (lack of success) face in it. You may get your chance to get your words of affirmation. Just stop seeking them, for now.

3. He thinks I am lazy - I would come home from work and expect him to have dinner made. He was home 2 hours before me and if dinner was not made I was a bit miffed. It takes me 2 hours to get home from work so I am not home until 7. He is home at 5. I guess back in the day I would get mad, now I just do not expect him to do it. So I get home and I make dinner. I guess I have lowered my expectations here.

Having dinner made COULD be a "gift" LL and not an act of service. I'm just pointing that out, although that may not be relevant in this "complaint". I would ask, would "lazy" be HIS word, or YOUR word of how YOU THINK his complaint here, is?

If that IS his complaint and his word, then perhaps his LL IS acts of service. ie. If you are not filling his LL bucket, then he will not fill yours. He's possibly doing the withholding, here. Not right or wrong, just what it might be.

Notice the stuff I struck out. Those are just REASONS for why you EXPECTED him to have supper ready. Also, be careful about suggesting you're lowering your expectations. That's possibly anger showing up and would not at all be attractive and is probably showing up in how you interact with your H, because you feel he is not living up to your expectations. On expectations...? Drop them... The serve no value here... and often... in life in general...

Eventually, you may get to a point where the two of you actively seek to fill each other's love buckets. Until you get through this first part, just observe and do not judge yourself or your H. This is Solutions oriented Brief Therapy kind of stuff. DO -> OBSERVE -> ADJUST -> CONTINUE

You'll find your pattern or you'll find yourself D. Either way, SBT... DB... is the focus, here...

4. I ask his opinion too much - I think this may play into the I always get what I want. When he told me that I decided to ask his option about everything. And his response to me is always "do what you want" or "I do not care" So I will ask again and I get the same response. So I get frustrated he is not answering and he get frustrated I am asking. I get what I want because he does not have an opinion.

Again, I'm not sure how valid this one is. Why would you ask his opinion if you always succeed in getting what you want? Why ask a plumber how to wire your home? So possibly a bit of jealousy on his part in that complaint. Also, IF / WHEN you've asked his opinion, did you do what he suggested... or did you just do what you wanted because his idea wasn't going to work for you?

So, if you ARE going to ask for his opinion, make sure it's in something that he's good at or something that you'll actually follow through with. Otherwise, he likely feels you really don't value his opinion.

Rather than asking his opinion on what you could or should do about something... ask his opinion about benign things... like the weather... or again, things that interest him... and let him speak and just listen... maybe... his LL is quality time? Some times people have TWO LLs and if feeding one doesn't work, you could try the other.

5. He thinks I do not hear him - This just came up when he said he wanted to leave. In the beginning I did the "don't leave" thing that was before I found DB. Now when he brings it up I do not say much. I am not sure what he wants me to do when he says these things, Pack his stuff?

Well, the "don't think you hear me" theme DOES seem to be coming up a lot. So I'd put bets THIS one is valid. AND... I think it might underlie something else...

Do you think he might feel that you are a bit... controlling...?

...his response was "I loved you so I would just overlook them" I mean really!! How am I supposed to know I am doing these things that annoy him if he never tells me?

Take a good look at that. While it is not generally healthy to overlook negative things, he possibly was suggesting that he was prepared to take the good with the bad and work through things. Guys really are like that...

Yes, communication is a fail point for many, if not most couples. Among other things, that's what DB can help you become better at. NOT talking... COMMUNICATING...

You know, considering... I wonder if Quality time might at least be a secondary LL, if not a primary, with Acts of Service as a secondary...

When the two of you started going out, what would a "date" consist of? Group settings? Diner and a movie? When the two of you were really getting along well and your H seemed really happy and content... what were the types of things going on between the two of you? What were you doing?

[~ kd ~]

Just an add here:

During one of our "discussions" he said "I notice everything you do, but because you need praise for things you should automatically be doing I am not going to give it to you"

When he says stuff like that I am just hearing spite.

Yes, it could very well have been spite. So you just need to understand that is possible, and then learn to let that go. That's something HE has to deal with. Learn not to react. It's not easy, but it is helpful and healthy for YOU, no matter the outcome.

I think right now it is so hard to see what his LL is.

Look to the past to understand what his LL is. It won't change. It is still the same as it always has been, so the past is your guide, not his reaction to your actions. Those are independent and part of the process of YOU DOING YOUR DB WORK.

Pursuer or the pursued? Good Question. I think through our our relationship this has flipped flopped. Dating I was the Pursuer then a few years into our M switched to him. I was pulling away (We had a hard time having kids so I got depressed I had 6 miscarriages etc) Then the A happened. He was still the Pursuer but then his EA happened and it turned to me. So there has been a lot of flop flopping.....

This may be something you want to look at more closely. You pursued, then you stopped pursuing, so he pursued you. It's the pursue / withdraw dynamic in many relationships. Some like being chased, some like chasing. And it is almost apparent in how you write the above that shows the process from dating to now and how the two of you reacted to the changes.

Which again is what DB is all about when it's said, "change yourself to change the sitch". When we change the pattern, the sitch changes. The pattern you described above led to a negative outcome. We, individually, can change a pattern in a positive way, which might lead to a positive outcome. It's the same principles.

[Mystify]

Kaffe Deim,
Thank you for your very through response. I have printed it out and highlighted some points so I can think about them and adjust. You have brought insight from an outsiders perspective that I just did not give much thought about and it was very insightful and very much appreciated. It is almost like you are a fly on my wall. You hit some things right on the head!!

Space Physically he is sleeping in the bonus room (no bed just couch, the spare room has a bed but he did not go there). This just began a few weeks ago. He told me he is doing this to eliminate his anxiety levels. The tension (not arguing just us not saying anything stonewalling) was so great between us he felt this was his only way to limit the stress. His behavior is strange here. We have 3 bathrooms in our house. He still chooses to use the one in our room, all of his things are in his room besides his xbox which he moved into the room he is in. The last time we were frisky I asked him if he wanted to "Go too my place or his" we laughed about this, but this is where we are...... It is as if he is making this room his "Man Cave" I have not said much about it. At first it annoyed me. Most probably because it was different. Now I just let it be. I actually like going to bed and being able to turn the TV on or play with my dog a bit. Now don't get me wrong I wish my H was there, but I seem to have adjusted is this bad?

I always get what I want I never thought of it as being jealous. You might be right. He has made comments that "people always screw him over" "He trusts no one" "everyone has an angle" Now I have these thoughts as well in certain situations. But he feels like this all the time. Maybe to him my ways of coping or executing a solution to benefit my outcome is a technique he may not possess and thus he is jealous. This is very interesting to me and I will have to think about this one for a bit. But I think you may be on to something. I think I will be more sensitive to this and practice my Listening.....

Lazy,
That would be my term for what he was saying. He did not come right out and call me lazy but he would say things like "You would come home from work and sit on the couch and I would cook and clean"....my response to this would be do to my own depression of the situation.....the A, Miscarriages, Long Commute or just wanted to decompress.
Expectations - I do not feel I am portraying my lack of Expectations of him in a hostel way. Maybe at first, absolutely. But when I came to terms with the situation it was much easier to let my expectations of him go away. I was less anxious. I have become less dependant on him. I do what I see needs to get done. I do not ask him or wait for him to notice. This for me has really help me cope with my sitch. But letting go of my expectations has helped me find peace.

Asking Opinions What you said is spot on. I think I got in the habit of asking him his Opinion because I wanted him to be included in decisions. More out of being courteous. But what is interesting to me is when I was reading your post is one of the things he was very Attracted to me about was my decisiveness. I think through this experience my guilt has made me indecisive. And maybe in his eyes I am now weak. I may proceed with caution on this one as I do not want to come off as he does not count.....this one will require a lot more thought on my part on how I can get some of myself back but still remain open and receptive to his feelings and opinions......

Dating In the very beginning we would go out with friends. This is how we met. I was friends with his family first and he is a cousin. But that turned to a lot of just us going out. Movies, dinner. We did everything together. We were BF's. He did and does not currently have any close friends. After we were married for some strange reason I kind of became a recluse. He had a falling out with his family we hung out with so out of respect for his feelings I limited contact with them. This really alainated me from a list of old friends. But to me my H was more important. So now neither of us have any close friends because we always had each other.

My H has always had trust issues, just never with me until the A. Using his words "the one person in the world who I thought would never F me over has" "It is only a matter of time until you do it again"

[Mystify]

There seems to have been some positive progress over the last week. My H was more open to me he sent me some "enticing" text messages and we seemed to connect more.

Then Monday came. I had a horrific day at work and I had to run home to get our S and take him to boy scouts. When I got home I had 5 minutes to get him ready and out the door. He was just sitting down for Dinner. S alone H has decided he will only cook for him.... So I had to hurry my S along to get him out the door. Now last year my H would take S to Boy Scouts however this year he announced it was too much for him and if our S wanted to continue I would have to take him. So as I was leaving the house my H said he was going to go down to the bar to get a burger and asked if I wanted one. I just said "No" and got my S and left.

Normally this would not be an issue, but ever since I had mentioned he may be drinking too much he has stopped drinking around me all together. He will drink when I am in bed or makes these stops to the bar when he is out. I told him his having a beer with dinner or here or there is not an issue but sometimes he gets on these drinking binges and just wont stop and his behavior alarms me. That is where I have the issue. So as I was leaving the house I was getting steamed. Here I was just worked a 10 hour day I have a 3 hour commute and running my H to boy scouts and he is going out to relax and have a beer and burger??

When I got home it was after 8 at this point and I found out my S has 2 hours of homework in his bag. Now they got home 3 hours before I did and my H never asked about homework they just plopped infront of the TV until it was time for me to come home. So there I sat until 10 with my 7 year old S helping with Homework. Then my H came to join us to help with the homework. He could hear I was getting frustrated so he tried to take over so I just let him.

When it comes down to it if my H wants to go out for a beer that is one thing but when he tells me "Taking our S to boy scouts" is too much for him and the last 3 times I took him he goes out for beer this really bothers me. I feel like he is choosing his needs over our S. Maybe this is just my perception and not the way I would handle the situation, Maybe I just need to get over it?

Tuesday I had another awful day at work. I came home and H was very distant. I had to take our dog to an agility class and I asked if he would like to go watch. Something new I started and he has never seen it before. I was already taking our S and thought he would like to go. He just looked at me and said a harsh "no" so all I said was OK.

Now I know I should not assume anything, but our previous week was good. I know my H is assuming my frustrated attitude is because of him and in reality it is only about 10% of it. Work is really 90% of my problem the last 2 days, but my H never asks me about my day he just assumes my attitude is always about him. Should I be clarifying my attitude? He never asks me anything and I when I do say something about my day he comes off as indifferent.

[MKB23]

I try to clarify my moods for my H. Only because I can see he is just like me in that when he tries to read my mind he assumes the very worst. That is up to you though. Further, maybe you should ask him to help with HW on scout days if he is already going to be there. If he continues to not help him then you have an issue. You might just say something like, "I'm sure S would like you to help with HW on scout days. By the time we get home he is very tired. It seems to take longer and he gets frustrated more easily." so it doesn't sound like you are blaming but instead states honestly what the issue is and how he can help it.