WAW in the making, What can I do to prevent it?

[E-Chic]

"Perhaps when he sees you with a book titled "The Divorce Remedy" in your hands, he'll pay attention."

You know, I have thought about that! That would be the ultimate use of the book - if just having it sparked discussions or change It could be like that Elf-on-a-Shelf thing, LOL.

[2thepoint]

It took some digging but I found the series of quotes from Sandi2 that I referenced earlier. I was just going to provide the quotes but after rereading my post on the topic, and because you are looking for LBS perspective, I thought it would be helpful for you to see my reaction (the LBS) to things that Sandi2 (the WAS) was saying. I know that a lot of this may not apply directly to your sitch, but hopefully you be able to use some of what is here.

So here is the full post. (Sandi's quotes are in bold type and my reaction/commentary regarding the quotes are in italics.)

===================

Sandi2 posted the following on CV's thread:

Quote:
"I had to realize he would never be better. He was nearing retirement and he would never climb the "success ladder" any higher. He would never please me in how he kept the back yard, and he would continue to bring junk home to add to his other junk. He would always take all day to think about what he was going to do that day. He would never be the great handyman like my neighbor. He would not measure up in to my father, in my eyes. He would never open open up and talk to me the way I wanted him to, b/c he didn't know how. Neither would he give me the emotional intimacy I wanted b/c he apparently didn't know how to do that either. In other words, he would never change! I really didn't have any hope in him making any kind of change."

These are profound realizations from a WAS. In my R, I know there certainly are things that I need to and have changed. But, I also feel that my W has this expectation that I will and/or am capable of fulfilling every single expectation she has of me. And I unfortunately will never be able to do that, even though the desire is there on my part. Some things I am just incapable of doing.

Quote:
"Like it or not, it was something I had to decide if I would live the rest of my life with those conditions, or leave. It was not an easy task."

Not easy indeed! Many WAS's just don't ever allow themselves to consider if they could or would live their life accepting their spouses imperfections. Such a shame.

Quote:
"Ever so slowly, as I began reading from the LBH's, I began to understand my own H a little better. And since he didn't know how to reveal that to me, it helped to read it from others. I began to see how I must have been seen in his eyes for a long time."

If only all our our WAS's could come to this level of understanding.

Quote:
"The place that may be different for you and me is that I had to reach a place where I felt humility. I think I had put myself up on such a high pedestal that my H didn't stand much chance in rising up to meet me on my level. You would have thought that after I strayed, I'd have fallen off that high pedestal, but I didn't. In fact CV, I had to actually pray that I would feel bad about what I had done, instead of feeling justified. When the shame begin to hit, well it nearly killed me. Forgiving myself has been the hardest thing I've ever done. Strange, I've never doubted my H's forgiveness, but I've wondered if I really forgiven myself."

This is so important! I have forgiven my W for her EA/A. But she hasn't forgiven herself. Maybe she doesn't want to. Maybe she doesn't feel she needs to. She is the one who has initiated the separation and so I view her much the way Sandi describes above as sitting on this high pedestal looking down on me for all my faults and feeling entirely justified in her decision to exit the M.

Quote:
"My lesson here, I hope, is it finally came to me that if my H could forgive what I had done, then why couldn't I forgive him? If he could give me his trust again, then why would I hold on to all that resentment I had against him?"

Amen!!!

Quote:
"I remember telling my H that I hadn't set out to hurt him when I met the OM and had an EA. But I think it was about two years before I could bring myself to tell him I was sorry. Don't you know that our M never stood a chance as long as I danced around trying to avoid that?"

Man, 2 years is a really long time! Can any of us hold out that long?

Quote:
"My H really is a good man! He has the best heart of any person I have known. My problem was that he didn't do like I wanted. Maybe I had good reason to feel like I did toward a lot of things, but what I've learned about M, is that most of it is forgiving. Some people say they "overlook" the faults of their S's, but that's just a word for forgiveness. I doubt a day goes by that my H doesn't forgive me for some little offense. After all, I'm not perfect. I hope not, but I'm sure there are many. I have learned that if we forgive the smaller offenses as we go...then the larger ones are not quite as hard as it would be otherwise."

So, much hard earned wisdom in this post! I know that deep down, I am a good person, worthy of the love of my W. That I am not without fault or flaw, but then neither is she.

It is really a shame that many WAS's are in search of perfection which doesn't exist. They have a M that requires regular maintenance but for reasons of their own, are incapable of putting forth the effort to keep the engine running.

Sandi's post above gives me hope that there is a chance for the WAS to turn around and reengage. But, the time involved is what causes many of us to want to give up and move on.

God I pray I can hang on and see this through.

=====================

Later, Sandi2 posted something else that resonated with me. Here is one additional quote of hers:

Quote:
"Just b/c I was able to finally forgive my H, and I got all that bitterness out, I did not immediately have a waterfall of loving feelings come blasting into my heart. It would have been nice, but it didn't happen for me. I had to still have some space (used it mostly on the DB board), and I had to have time to get stronger. That healing process is not for the LBS only. I think he was not ready for me to fall all over him. He needed some time to deal with his side of the pain and heal also. Some couples may feel they have to be glued to each others hip to heal, but my H and I aren't that way. It came in stages or steps, as we were able to move forward, and as we moved forward the " Y " in the road eventually became one lane again.

I started to make a conscious effort to show respect to him. In the past, I felt he didn't deserve my respect b/c he didn't live up to my expectations. It was a big problem. I learned from people here and I began to open my eyes and heart and see all the areas I could respect him. It was a starting point.

I took a conscious effort to speak with a nice tone of voice (a respectful way) when speaking to him. I made an effort to not make facial expressions that spoke a different language from my words. (That always bothered him a lot.)

I made a conscious effort to see the good in him and the things he does. I made an effort to remember why I fell in love with him (thanks to this board).

Little steps at a time went on for a long time and ever so slowly my feelings for him began to change."

[E-Chic]

Yes, there is a LOT of wisdom in that post. Though I haven't had an affair the feelings of disappointment and aggravation with H are similar.

During our last session with the MC I said that I was so dissappointed that our R had backslid so far in just 4 weeks that I didn't know if there was a reason to keep trying.

Our MC told me that I needed to forget about anything that happened before we started counseling, I needed to only pay attention to the progress H has made. I do not think I am willing to do that. Forgive? Yes. Forget? No, the consequences are too high.

One of my greatest fears is that the pattern we've been in for the last several years will continue for the rest of my life.

* Typically, the R goes downhill and I do whatever I can to make it better. I lose weight, I do more around the house to be a "good wife", I cut back on work travel, etc.
* Making little to no progress, I try to accept the situation and rationalize that it could be worse (all the internal dialogue of, "he doesn't hit me, cheat on me, etc").
* After months of that I finally start to think that dammit, I'm not happy in a marriage that just "doesn't suck as bad as it could" and I want (deserve) something better. I lobby for counseling.
* We go to counseling and in a few months things start to get a little better. Not great, but to a level that gives me hope we can have a good, fun, satisfying relationship if we keep making progress.
* We stop counseling (cuz we're on the right track and feeling good that we can do this) and in 1-4 months all progress is lost.

So, the cycle is that every 2-3 years I get the courage and self confidence to say that I do not want to be in an unhappy marriage. There are 2-3 months where things are better, and the cycle repeats.

The problem I have with the counselor saying I need to forget everything that happened before this round of therapy is that I don't want to go through another 2-3 years of unhappy marriage. I know it's easier to do that than maintain my commitment to change or get out. If I get lazy again I'm just signing up to be a doormat for another chunk of my life. I've done that repeatedly with H, I'm not saying H is 100% to blame here. But I am not going to be a willing participant in that cycle ever again.

I mean, if MC really pushed me then I would say that stopping that cycle is more important than preserving our marriage.

It's like a plane crash victim saying, "Fine, I can't visit Europe on vacations anymore. If that's the price I pay for refusing to get on another plane, then so be it. I will not take that risk again."

[2thepoint]

^^bump^^

[E-Chic]

I'm still on mod .. So my last post hasn't gone public yet ... But it will be interesting to see how MC goes today. There has been some improvement in the "touch" aspect, partially because I have been more direct about getting it. Example: when he was watching TV and I curled up on the couch next to him I waited a bit then put his hand on my hip. That sort of thing.

I think that I'm not sure what I want. Some days I want to stay and do whatever it takes to make it work, and then other days I get so tired of trying so hard that I just want it to be over already. Meaning, I just want to admit defeat and go rest.

I will say this, a bad marriage or "marriage in upheaval" is flipping exhausting and really [censored] the life out of a person.

[greenblue90]

If I'm posting it's cause I'm projecting :p

So please excuse me if I got it all wrong....

A couple of times you mentioned that his carelessness at home drives you nuts. My wife had the same complaint, the worse part was that the harder I tried, the worst she got when I would inevitably screw up. From my side it felt like nothing was ever good enough for her.

It was true too, nothing i did was ever going to be good enough, because I wasn't good enough. Now I'm not throwing myself a pity party here. The truth is I had let myself go, physically, mentally, emotionally. I was a pathetic mess, and W was not attracted, so she projected that into her disliking of everything I did. Sounds silly, but I think her subconcious was trying to get rid of me.

You mentioned he has kinda turned into a dud.

I say this carefully, her almost leaving sure was a wakeup call for me. Well she did leave, for a little while. It was at that moment that I had to rediscover how to be a man. How to be assertive, strong, interesting, and smooth. I discovered that in today's world in order to keep your partner you have to actively work to stay attractive otherwise they'll get bored, or find someone else.

My wife shoved the red pill down my throat and it hurt. (matrix reference). If you leave he'll notice, hopefully he'll change.

It is hard to reach an LBS, before the bomb we can be really clueless. I'd give you a list of books, that I think he should read, but then again it's kinda hard since he really has no incentive to change, until you leave of course.

Now you mentioned that you have mandatory sex once a week. How do you feel about that? How does he feel about it? Would you say that he could conceivably have you whenever he wanted, or do you have to be properly in the mood? Has he ever initiated, and been put down while you're not in the mood?

I mention all this because if my wife would have slowly shown me how to make those changes that would put her in the mood, we probably could have avoided a lot. I understand it's hard to get in the mood, when you are mad, because the thrash wasn't taken out. Maybe if you make the link that a happy W is a sexually excited wife he'll get the clue.

Instead my W expected me to figure it out on my own... Which well I almost didn't.

[E-Chic]

greenblue90 - thank you for the reply. I've been out of town this week & finally have a chance to respond.

Yes, in some ways he has been acting like a dud. I don't want to say he's turned into one, but I think he sometimes acts like one (and probably views himself as one). Little things like just following me around in a store, instead of actively helping to find things or even taking the lead, become frustrating and it isn't because I think I should be walking 5 paces behind him at all times - it's because of how what I think it says about how he sees himself. And, if he's the "dud" then I have to step up and be the one in charge, and I don't always want to do that. It makes me feel like I've been cast in the role of "bossy, domineering, bitchy wife who controls everything" and that isn't a role I signed up for.

But I can see where he might be feeling like a dud. He has gained some weight in the last couple years and while my career path has done well, he's made less progress toward where he wants to be (but he is making progress, which I think is really important to recognize).

How do I feel about the mandatory sex? First, I should be clear that it isn't mandatory, it's more ... routine. I don't feel particularly psyched about it because over time it's become a pattern of a "quickie" and then off to sleep. It's not as physically satisying as it used to be and it's a lot less emotionally satisfying.

I do sort of have to be in the mood, as does he. We've both tried to initiate & been put down, but it's definitely happened more to him over the years than to me.

That's part of why I miss the normal physical contact outside of the bedroom. That's what works to get me in the mood. If I feel attractive, sexy, desired ... then I'm in the mood. I mean, I get dressed up for work some days & just knowing I look nice because I'm wearing a skirt or cute heels goes a long way toward being in the mood. If H were to notice that & maybe put a hand on my waist then that's all it takes.

I can see how helping him make the connection between "happy wife" and "sexually excited wife" is a good thing. I may need to think of it like conditioning behavior in any mammal - Dolphins don't jump through a hoop on the first try, they get rewarded for little steps (and the reward is as big for the tiny first steps as it is for the final hoop-jump).

Maybe if I break down the "big trick" of touching me into smaller tricks & reward them, I can start shaping the behavior. this is mildly depressing, because I am seeing how much work this is going to be. I'm not saying I'm not capable of it, but I might delay it until some other things clear off my plate (like the next 3 trips occurring in the next 2 weeks - travel schedule got crazy really fast).

[E-Chic]

It has been several months since I posted in here and I thought I would give an update.

We are getting a divorce. I wasn't able to make it work or get thru to him that I really needed more from our marriage. Things I tried between May 2012 & March 2013 included:
- I stopped criticizing any issues around a lack of help at home and focused on the two things I really needed - Touch and Conversation. If he would just touch me and talk with me I could make this work. I didn't expect it every day, but often enough that I felt he liked me and wanted me around (4-5 days a week when I wasn't traveling would have been ideal).
- I started buying lingerie and wearing just a thong to bed, and touching him to try and initiate sex. I learned that he's only interested about once a week, no matter what I wear.
- I made plans for a separation in late July 2012. I found an apartment that would let me bring my dog for a short term lease (that took a lot of effort) and we talked about it during MC. I didn't go thru with it, though, because he seemed to make more of an effort to touch me for a few weeks.
- Planned a quick get-away in late November to try and rekindle the sense of fun & romance. We definitely had some fun and some good times in the hotel room, but once we got home it was back to once a week quickies.
- Continued with MC and trying to understand what he wanted, what would make him feel interested in me again. I also suggested we try a different kind of MC (called EFT or Emotionally Focused Therapy).
- Things really went downhill after Christmas
- We separated in March.

I thought that it would be a trial separation at first. I thought if I had some time away from the rejection and hurt I would be open to trying again. I was wrong, after he was gone I felt lonely but not rejected. I prefer lonely.

Sadly, I think he has seen the light. He finally had time to read the book on EFT and he also thinks its a great technique. He even found a therapist who practices it. I've tried to talk myself into giving it another try - but my heart is so set against it. It sounds crazy but I'd tell myself, "C'mon, why not try again? You can do this, and you can find a way to be happy in the marriage. You miss him being here, just give it another shot." And I had the strongest sense from deep in my chest that said, "Please don't put me through that again. Please." I didn't know how intensely painful separation would be and now that I do know, I don't think I'd have the courage to do it again. I really don't, and I think he would want to change and maybe change for a few months ... and then we'd be back in the same pattern again.

We were in MC for over a year this time thru, and I never got thru to him that I desperately needed to feel loved and wanted until we separated. Now he seems to understand how much it hurt to be rejected so many times, but try as I might, my brain can't talk my heart into trusting him again. I've done a lot of grieving for the loss of what I hoped we would someday have (a good marriage, a chance to grow old together, and that feeling of safety and security you have with someone who has known you for a very long time).

I understand that for the LBH, this message could be like salt in a wound. I am sorry if that is true for you. I know that I'm not able to speak for all WAW but I bet that in most cases, the following is true ...
1) When we felt that our husbands didn't want us or didn't love us, we started to believe we were unlovable and unwantable. That is a deep pain.
2) Even if it seems like we are doing okay, we aren't. We have our ups and downs and nights where we cry for no apparent reason. Even a month after the separation. Probably even longer, I'm just not experienced enough with this to tell you when it stops.
3) We are scared. We are scared that if we try again, we will talk ourselves into settling for what we had and we will continue to feel small and "less than" for the rest of our lives. We are scared that we are wrong when we think, "I'd rather be lonely than be ignored and pushed away."
4) We know that what we had (a marriage that didn't work) was hurting us. We don't know if the future will be any better, but we feel compelled to try.

Best of luck to all of you. For anyone who does get a second chance I wish you all the best and hope you persevere to transform your marriage into a place of love, safety, and acceptance.

[~ kd ~]

e-chic, I'm just reading back on your original thread as I see you are posting a bit, right now.

Each one of us always has the choice to stay or go. Neither is right or wrong, just choices with consequences...

I respect your choice to leave.

Right now... you believe you have done everything that you could to make things work out. Do you have any regrets?

Do you plan to be single for the rest of your life?

Do you expect a new partner to fulfil all that you did not get from this M?

How have you changed to ensure that a new R or M will be different than this past M?