Snowman, I rarely post anymore. I sort of wore out my space here for awhile. But I can sympathize with your situation. Read those books, and dozens more too. I was a typical MNG, and I probably still am - I'm not sure we can really change our personalities much. I'm sorry you're going through this.
I know you want to find the perfect words to convince your W that she's been wrong and see the light. Like if we tell them, hey, I'm not taking this anymore they'll finally get it and stop. If you're like me, you've given that a lot of thought.
But Kaffe Diem is making a good point, as usual. Those words probably don't exist. It doesn't really matter if you TELL her that you're not going to be a "nice guy" anymore - she wouldn't believe it anyway. And it's not even about SHOWING her. It's not about her at all. It's just about DOING it....for you. Getting some distance. Getting stronger.
Do you find it all very ironic? I did. All of my natural reactions were eusually the worse things to do. All of the suggestions - which I knew in my gut were right - were so hard to do. I couldn't decide to stay in my M until I had the strength to leave. Before that it wasn't a decision - I was trapped.
Of course the pain and resentment is normal. It's motivation for change, which is hard.
Work on your support system. I couldn't do it by myself - I needed to build a support system. And that included IC and occasionally some ADs - I used to feel bad for this, my advice is not to share this with your W right now - building up a few good friendships, reading, getting out and doing something (anything! staying busy). I read here that it is not helpful to tell friends and family what is going on - it makes reconciliation harder. But I found two people and who were outside of the M circle and told them most of it, and some others I would tell that "things are tough right now". That's it. They knew anyway. But that's just me, and maybe it wasn't smart. But I felt I deserved a least a little support from a few friends.
Well, all this is just to say that you're not alone and I'm pulling for you.
I think your realizing the problem you got yourself into here.
You see that you have gone out and improved yourself. Worked on all the issues she had with you.
You owned them. And now you are in a very lopsided place with her. Any issues she has with you... Real or some made up shinola you work on it. She smacks you with EA , PA.
She hangs it like a noose over you. All these faults she has with you. Well guess what. They are off the table. She dealt with these faults by going out and getting involved with OM. That is how she dealt with the "issues".
So take them off the table. No longer issues.
Cause your going to get to a place where if you get back together. You will have improved. Then you will walk on egg shells for the rest of your marriage because you know at any moment she will bring down the hammer of OM to keep you inline.
Frankly she is bringing nothing to the table. You see this. And you determining what to do with it. Well it is going to lead to what I wrote earlier or its going to lead to D.
You gotta stop letting her control your self esteem. You gotta stop fixing yourself for her.
Not wearing a nice pair of slacks vs a nice pair of jeans. That's you. That is not an issue. That is not an excuse for OM. You only said " I love you" when you were being intimate. Now that is an issue. That you owned. And you are working on yourself to be more vocal on this and you are learning about love languages and all that fun stuff. That you say yes. I have addressed this and I am correcting this. You remove it from the table. You address the legitimate issues. The rest. She owned the moment she stepped out of the marriage. That was her way of dealing with it. If she does not like that. Tough shinola. Being in an adult relationship requires equality between the two people involved. She is not working on equality here.
Sit down and write out your list of all the good things and bad things you see in her. Do the same for your marriage and relationship.
This is your list.
This is what you need to know will be worked on by her if you decide to get back together.
It is not a you said this i am saying that. This is your legitimate issues that you have. One's that she will eventually have to own. Because you did not step out of the marriage to resolve those issues. You want to work on them.
Stop being her punching bag for when ever she has a day where everything did not go the way she thought it would in her fantasy/reality world.
Stop listening to the parade of real and imagined faults she has with you.
Stop fixing yourself for her.
You work on yourself for the following reason.
I know that I will be a better man for myself.
Being a better man for myself will make me a better husband.
Being a better man for myself will make me a better father.
You own your real faults. You work on them.
You become comfortable with who you are. Others can work on their problems with their thoughts on what they like and do not like about you.
Time after time the BS takes on all the faults of the relationship. Real or imagined. They toe the line always wondering when it's going to fall apart.
The goal is to create balance and equality. Perhaps for the first time.
Rambling now.... so I will stop.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
SL-Crap I know it is about her it is about me. I keep getting sucked into the vortex of it being about her.
KD is right that she would not believe the no more mr. nice guy if I said it to her. Its about me and my actions.
Quote:
Do you find it all very ironic? I did. All of my natural reactions were eusually the worse things to do. All of the suggestions - which I knew in my gut were right - were so hard to do. I couldn't decide to stay in my M until I had the strength to leave. Before that it wasn't a decision - I was trapped.
It is ironic as I have noticed when I detached to better than I ever had before is when all this crazy apology stuff came about. I said to myself, well isnt that just dandy I'm ready to move on and they come begging back. I felt like I was gaining momentum then and ready to take whatever came my way as well as share my changes with someone new. I agree with the trap thing totally.
I have been throwing the IC thing around in my head again to work on NMMNG=No More Mr. Nice Guy. I know it doesn't keep the road paved and smooth by talking to family. I have worked to not talk to my family about it anymore and hers as well. I will say that I do talk to one sister who has gone through a separation in the past and has given stayed very objective and supportive of me. No bashing or anything like that but she does say a lot of what chatterbug had to say to me. Others just know because they are to close to not know and it has been to long. I didn't share anything with my W and did not confront her again.
Chatterbug-First of all your message resonates like the things my sister says who has been through her own stitch. Second, you are freaking right about everything and me realizing where this thing is leading me.
I have worked on or tried to address everything possible to the best of my ability or through help of books, IC, or other ways. I still have work to do on me with being comfortable with me and getting my manhood back so to speak.
Quote:
Sit down and write out your list of all the good things and bad things you see in her. Do the same for your marriage and relationship.
This is your list.
This is what you need to know will be worked on by her if you decide to get back together.
I need and will do this.
I work on me for me and then get sucked back into working on me to somehow fix the M which is wrong. I need to get back to working on me to be a better husband, father, and man for me. I need to get way stronger self-esteem and confidence. Thanks for this reality check.
SL-I have listened to the NMMNG book in my car and found myself saying in my head, yep, yep, yep, over and over. I know need to get a hard copy and really go through it to identify my issues. Right now its to hit and miss when just listening to it in the car. I will develop specific goals once I go through the activities in the book and get back to you on that one.
I will say I'm worn out dealing with this crap, filling out paperwork to short-sale my house, work, and life in general. I need a break from it all. I keep saying yeah I should get a gym membership and have not. I should do that to release the frustration.
Now I'm rambling. Thanks for the reality check and support.
Me:29 W:28 S:2 M: 5 years Bomb: 7-26-11 Separated: 8-20-11 EA w/ multiple OMs W filed 1/2012
Snowman, it's a tough situation. I'd be pretty worn out too. It's normal to have lots of ups and downs, forward progress and backslides. Don't be too hard on yourself.
The irony thing hits pretty hard, doesn't it? I gravitated to some taoist books for a while, just because they seemed to have strageties to deal with this. It always reminded me of that old Steinfeld episode where George decides that since nothing he is doing works out he'll just do the complete opposite of what he normally would....and become wildly successful.
As for the book, I was trying to picture you driving in your car, nodding yep, yep, yep to the audiobook. I had the same reactions, and probably would have been nodding and waving my hands so much I'd have crashed my car.
It's all about building equality. You cannot heal your marriage if either of you come back in with a 90% - 10% ratio in equality.
I can see 60 - 40 as there will be some extra effort by your wife to rebuild trust. Which IMHO is just you two learning the new dynamics of understanding and respecting each others boundaries.
Good luck and swing by the bookstore for some books on you just brokeup and look for some activities you can write out.
Since you are at this location at this time. It is best to look around with open eyes.
A priori. Ars longa, vita brevis.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
Snowman. This is a very good time to learn about things that bother you.
Are they an issue that needs to be addressed via boundaries. Are they an issue that you need to address by behavioral changes or changes in expectation. Are they a non-issue and need to be dropped.
They only remain a problem for as long as you let them.
Its an interesting time when you get to this point. I think you grow up and become a man. You learn your core values. You learn your boundaries. You gain confidence in yourself to remain true to your core boundaries and values.
You grow. And usually it takes a crisis to learn this.
Many BS's lose 30 pounds wear some nice cloths and then call it in after that.
You can see it in their posts. It is just a circle week in and week out.
I personally stop posting to those people as I have nothing to offer them.
I do not see that in you. I see that you will grow and become a better person. But I also see you being impatient and getting frustrated.
It is what you do with that frustration that will define you in the years to come.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
My W replied to my email in a email conversation that we have been having. Her email was more of the same projections of her problems on my family, me, friends, and other BS. I said how can this vague BS be so. I then started more work in my nice guy area and happened upon Borderline Personality Disorder(BPD). I started to read about it and read other's experience about it. I then started reading the book Stop Walking on Eggshells which is a book about living with someone that has it. Holy crap it was so familiar it was shocking. You could erase my entire stitch from when the bomb was dropped on me and for certain I would say my wife has it based on my entire marriage before that.
This is not some BS excuse I'm coming up with now or anything like that. I had a bad case of Mr. Nice Guy which is the BPD's favorite person to be with. I still have work to do on me but I'm telling you she has it. Her behavior during our entire marriage and even worse in this stitch. She has been an emotional nightmare of anger, the black and white thinking, the control/manipulation, the projections on everyone, extremely sensitive, the blaming, the anger outbursts, the talk of pain, the emptiness etc.. I could go on and I'm talking before the bomb and during the entire marriage.
She wants to now continue with the D again. There is no helping a BPD person if they will not help themselves. I have been beaten down so much that I have started to believe her abuse. I can't take it anymore and it won't stop until she gets help for herself.
I'm ready to move on. I have and will continue to work on me with the great guidance on here but I'm ready. No one knows nor can I try to describe my entire marriage but me and I'm saying it was never healthy or normal. I could never put my finger on it until now. I know responses may say stuff like be careful or your just blaming on a disorder or jumping to conclusions but until you have lived with what I have and also read/learned to understand this disorder I would say please learn about it so you can understand.
My W doing EAs and making me walk on eggshells is classic behavior. Reading people's posts that have lived or dealt with a person with BPD caused a rush feelings and understanding to come over me. It just feels in the gaps of so much confusion.
I'm going to continue to learn more but meanwhile I'm not sure how to respond to my W's ridiculous projections on basically everyone but herself and attempt to suck me back into things??
Me:29 W:28 S:2 M: 5 years Bomb: 7-26-11 Separated: 8-20-11 EA w/ multiple OMs W filed 1/2012
SM, I just want to put out there that some WAS show aspects of PDs, including BPD which may or may not be chronic.
At best, use that as a guide for yourself as to how to conduct yourself. Remaining without expectations as to how your W will behave into the future.
What ever you may or may not feel were BPD or other PD prior to the M break down, be careful not to diagnose your W with a permanent, chronic PD label. Leave that to a doctor.
