I'm looking for some advice. My situation is described in the previous posts. It's been over 3 weeks since I read The Sex-Starved Marriage and since that time I've tried my best to be a wonderful husband. And I've done pretty well - I've been helping my wife any way that I can, I've completely avoided talking about romance and intimacy (hence no sex argument), I've refrained from pouting, I haven't been critical, and I've taken an interest in communicating with my wife about things that are going on with her. Since Valentine's Day I've even brought home flowers twice for no reason at all, expecting nothing in return. We're getting along very well with one exception - still nothing romantic - no kissing, cuddling, sex, etc.
I'm now getting depressed, which makes me worry that I'll eventually say something to her - which of course would start the sex argument and the whole process would start again. I still plan not to say anything, but when I get depressed I have a hard time hiding it, she asks me what's wrong, and I eventually let loose. Something I stated in a previous post was that when I'm doing good to keep my mouth shut and act happy, I'm afraid she thinks the problem has gone away when actually I'm hurting badly on the inside. I know from experience that talking to her about the situation won't help. Should I write her a letter, being very careful about what I say. What could I say that might make a difference? I think it would help greatly if she'd read The Sex-Starved Marriage - should I ask her to do that for me? If I don't write the letter or say anything to her, how long might it be before things begin to change? I realize nobody knows the answer to that - I'm just kind of getting my thoughts out there. I'd appreciate any feedback.
I'm now getting depressed, which makes me worry that I'll eventually say something to her - which of course would start the sex argument and the whole process would start again. I still plan not to say anything, but when I get depressed I have a hard time hiding it, she asks me what's wrong, and I eventually let loose.
Hi Sooner, All of this builds up inside and you're going to let loose. What would happen if when she asks you calmly said that you are hurting because of the lack of affection. (Notice that I didn't say NO affection.) Then continue to say that right now you don't want to discuss it because your emotions are wound too tight, but, if it's ok with her, you would like to discuss it later when you have more emotional control.
What this might accomplish is to get it off your chest in a CALM way, admit to a current emotional weakness on this subject (hey, we all have our special buttons!), and, with her approval and agreement, leave the door open for future conversations.
Thanks for your input. If nothing else, I'm sure that what you've suggested would be better than going on and on, which is what I tend to do once the sex argument gets started. I'll keep it in mind as I definitely need to handle things differently than I have in the past.
I got on here tonight because I screwed up badly and got into the "sex argument" with my wife. I'll get back to that shortly, but first I'll respond to your questions since you were kind enough to respond. Although I've heard of the book "The Five Love Languages" I haven't read it and I don't know anything about the love language concept, therefore I can't answer your first question. The others are somewhat easier. Since our intimacy problems began, we hardly ever cuddle in bed. I occasionally try to cuddle up to my wife and she either acts aggravated or says something to let me know that she wants to be left alone. On rare occasions I don't get completely turned away, but she never "cuddles back". This leaves me feeling like I'm probably bothering her, but I usually continue as long as possible because I'm dying be close to her. If I touch her at all in bed, either with my hand or my foot, she usually kind of jumps like she's startled then rolls farther away. With regard to her family, her parents have never showed any affection towards each other in my presence in the 10 years that I've known them. I suspect that they've never been very affectionate with each other, although I don't know for sure. As far as the journal goes, I probably won't get much closer to keeping one than what I write on here unless you (or anyone else) can convince me otherwise. My wife already accuses me of "keeping track" of everything good or bad that happens in our relationship, so if I was keeping a journal I actually would be keeping track.
Okay, back to the sex argument. The last two nights I've been working on a letter to my wife because I was hurting so bad that I was afraid I'd eventually blow up. I went to bed around 10:30 and she was already asleep. I tried to cuddle up against her, and she huffed as if she was frustrated and rolled over. This hurt my feelings and I said something, which of course started the whole argument. It was definitely my fault - once the argument gets started I can't let it go. And one of my goals if you read the previous posts was to never let the sex argument get started. So I definitely failed. She acknowledged that I'd been doing much better to help her more during the past four weeks and said (as always) that she was just starting to feel closer to me before I went and screwed everything up. If I only knew how long it would take before she'd feel close enough to me to be interested in romance, I could probably hold out a lot longer before blowing up. My concern is that it could be several months or years. I can't live like that.
So my question now is what should I do. Michele mentioned "getting angry and being less available emotionally", but I’m not sure exactly what that means. I am angry that I’m trying so hard to meet her needs yet she won’t put forth any effort to meet mine. But I can’t stop caring about her – and I’m afraid that if I act like I don’t care she’ll continue to feel that we aren’t close enough for any kind of romance. Someone please give me some ideas.
Thanks for your response to my post above. There are some definite similarities between your situation and mine. So I read your post as you asked and tell you my thoughts. There are a lot of things I thought about when I read your post. Don't know if I can get them all down here or not before I get interrupted, but I'll try. Keep in mind all of this is from my perspective and could end up having no relevance to you or your wife's perspective.
1. Everything about our culture says that if your libido is low there is something WRONG with you! Why is there more "help" out there for the low libido person? Because it is perceived as THE PROBLEM. That's the message your wife is getting from the media and other sources. (I can't tell you how many times I've read in Dear Abby that if you don't have a sex drive you need to get yourself to a doctor or a therapist. You're sick!) Yeah, your wife may say she thinks you have the problem, but is there a chance that she's actually pretty worried? Is it perhaps hard for her to admit that to you? If you've been having arguments over sex and some blaming has been going on, it's pretty hard for the person who is feeling blamed to say "I'm actually really worried about this." So what do you do if your wife might actually be more concerned than she's letting on? You have to find a way to make it safe for her to express her own fears to you. No hint of "I told you so!"
2. A bit of an attitude change about "helping" around the house, etc. (Ahem...soap box please). You're not "helping." You're shouldering your share of the adult responsibilities. You may see what you've been doing as points in your column. She may see what you've been doing as exactly what you should be doing, sorry no extra points. So IF you're doing those things just to have more sex, it may not work. IF you're doing those things because you've accepted your responsibility for them, then I would think that was great! BIG step in the right direction!
3. She may be turning away from your cuddling in bed at night because she thinks it is another overture to sex. Try going for a walk and then part way through it ask her if you can hold her hand. Smile, look her in the eyes, and tell her you love her...(and keep walking, don't try to pull her off into the bushes!) Do this often and she might see the added benefit of that extra weight, which she sees as a problem, coming off. I've also found that a multivitamin and exercise help my libido somewhat. Lots less drastic than medication. Plus they don't make you feel like you're "sick and taking medication to treat the problem." Once again, though, do this because you love and care about her, not because you want more sex.
4. As for trying to get her to read SSM: Hold off. I was highly motivated, already accepting the responsibility for finding a solution, I found and ordered the book, and *I* still got pissed off. Can't imagine what my reaction would have been if my husband had given it to me! The book tells her that she's the one who is the "slow one". I realize that Michelle doesn't mean that the one with the low libido is the stupid kid in class, but the analogy does nothing for making the low libido person feel real great about doing anything. (Sorry, Michelle. Maybe find another analogy about who sets the pace if you revise the book?) The point is, however, that the book is going to tell your wife that she's the one who is going to have to give the most, put the most effort into changing things because she determines how often sex occurs.
Now suppose your wife handed you a book, all excited, and told you that you really need to read this. In this book, you read that an active sex life is really not that important to a good marriage and your constant pressure on your spouse to have sex is really hurtful to her. In fact if she goes to someone else to get away from your pressure, it's largely your fault. Afterall, how could you expect her to be faithful or stay married to you under those circumstances?! (This is something of an exaggeration, but there is plenty of room for someone to interpret the message of the book that way.) Now, how do you feel about that book and your spouse?
You like SSM and it seems most sex-starved spouses do. There's a reason for that. It pretty much agrees with the point of view of the sex-starved spouse. I think it has some wonderful ideas, BUT...the low libido spouse is by no means the favored child in the book. You need to communicate to your wife that you're not saying "See, I told you so! Mom agrees with me. Na, na, na, na." (Can you tell I have young children?) And you might want to have her first read the parts where Michelle has a thing or two to say to the sex-starved spouse and his/her contribution to the situation. Then, when your wife reads the parts about herself, she might not feel quite so picked on. You've already mentioned that your wife feels criticized when you tell her how you feel.
4. Sometimes focusing so much on a problem makes the problem worse. Take a break. Not from sex, that's already happening. Take a break from thinking about the problem so much. Instead spends lots of time thinking about all the things you love about your wife and your marriage. Tell her. Let her know the good feelings you have for her. In Gottman's research on marriage, he has found that the magic formula is 5 to 1. For every negative communication between you and your spouse, be sure there are at least 5 positive communications.
Best wishes, MPT
P.S. Sorry for the length. I told you I had lots of thoughts.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read my entire post and giving me your thoughts concerning my situation. Your comments were excellent and they helped me to better understand what my wife might be going through. They also made very good sense and were well written - you should write your own book! For what it's worth, I thought I'd go through each of your comments and give you my thoughts.
I'd never really considered that my wife might be really worried about her low libido. I know that she does get the impression that I'm blaming her for our problems, and that she finds it hard to open up to me. She's actually told me that she hates telling me anything because I will use it against her when we get into an argument. I'm definitely guilty of doing that and I will try very hard to be more compassionate and understanding of her feelings.
You made a very good point on the helping around the house issue and I agree with you completely. I will try very hard to change my thinking and see the things I'm doing as simply my responsibilities rather than a means of earning "points".
My wife actually told me, a long time ago, that she stopped cuddling with me in bed because I'd think she wanted to have sex. I can understand why she felt this way, however I've tried to alleviate her concerns by promising that I would never initiate anything sexual if she cuddles with me. This hasn't helped. I've also offered to completely eliminate sex for some agreed period of time, or until she tells me it's okay to move on, so that we could work on just cuddling, etc. until she felt more comfortable about sex. She didn't go for that idea either. Unfortunately between our busy schedule and our girls, we don't have much time for taking walks or exercise right now, but I'll do what I can.
When we had our argument last weekend, I asked my wife to read the SSM. Now I'm afraid that it will affect her exactly the same way it did you. You're not my wife in disguise are you? Just kidding. Your example about my wife handing me a book that says an active sex life is not important to a good marriage makes an excellent point. I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do about the SSM. I may suggest that she read the section pertaining to the sex-starved spouse first - that may help.
I think it would help if I could take a break from focusing on our problems - but that's easier said than done. Being close to my wife is the most important thing in the world to me right now - and I'm not just talking about sex. I've always been extremely happy (always considered the class clown, etc.) and have never been depressed. But now I'm very depressed because I feel like my wife isn't in love with me and that we'll never have the close, loving relationship that I had always envisioned marriage to be. It's hard to say "okay, I'm just not going to worry about this anymore" and go on about my life. However, I'll try - that's all I can do.
I really do appreciate your comments MPT and I hope that at some point I can help you as much as you've helped me. Our situations do seem to be quite similar. Please let me know if there's ever anything I can do to help you understand what your husband may be feeling.
Quoting MPT: The point is, however, that the book is going to tell your wife that she's the one who is going to have to give the most, put the most effort into changing things because she determines how often sex occurs.
Well, think of it this way. In a relationship, if one person "wants" something from the other person, and if there's nothing stopping the other person from giving it to them, it should be given. IE, if I want a kiss, and there's no reason for my wife to not give me one, she should give me a kiss.
Of course 100% of the time is not needed, but in general, if a spouse feels a need for something from the other spouse, the other spouse should provide it.
The same thing with sex. If spouse1 feels the need for sex, and spouse2 doesn't provide it, spouse2 is the one who needs to change. We don't say "I don't feel a need for kissing like you do, so you better get used to no kisses". No, we just kiss our spouse when they want kisses, even if we don't need one at the same time.
I think people just view sex as such a huge ordeal that they feel they have the right to refuse it if they're not "into" it. That's one big thing the SSM book hits on really well.. it doesn't matter if you're not into it, it's one of your jobs as a spouse to do your best to give your spouse what they need. Even if you don't feel like sex, you should have sex anyway.
So I think it's perfectly natural for a relationship book to say that the person who's Not giving, is the person who needs to work on things.
Sooner1992, Your obvious interest and love for you wife comes through in your posts. I really do sympathize with you and want to help if I can. Just a few more thoughts.
Quoting sooner1992: MPT,
She's actually told me that she hates telling me anything because I will use it against her when we get into an argument. I'm definitely guilty of doing that.
Yeah, you definitely want to stop doing that. It's hard when people are really angry or hurt to not want to hurt back though. And if you're got ammunition...man, it can be even harder to resist! Just keep your eyes on the goal of making it easier for your wife to talk to you.
Glad I may have another convert to the camp of "Shared Responsibility Rather than His/Her Responsibility and I'm Helping."
Good luck with getting some exercise. I have children too and I know how hard it is. But when I can get regular exercise, everything about life seems a little easier. I have this written on a card where I can read it when I think about skipping it. I still sometimes skip it though!
Quoting sooner1992:I think it would help if I could take a break from focusing on our problems - but that's easier said than done. Being close to my wife is the most important thing in the world to me right now - and I'm not just talking about sex. I've always been extremely happy (always considered the class clown, etc.) and have never been depressed. But now I'm very depressed because I feel like my wife isn't in love with me and that we'll never have the close, loving relationship that I had always envisioned marriage to be. It's hard to say "okay, I'm just not going to worry about this anymore" and go on about my life. However, I'll try - that's all I can do.
I know. That comment came from the fact that I got so concerned about my low sex drive, worried that I didn't love my H anymore because I didn't want to have sex, worried about how my body would respond when he tried to initiate sex. So guess what happened when he tried to initiate sex? Right, absolutely nothing! Hence more anxiety, less sex, more anxiety, less sex...bad downward spiral. Do the best you can. That's all anyone can do.
Ceberon, Thank you for your post. I derived a real benefit from it. Probably not the one you may have been aiming for, but useful none the less. Your post pushed my buttons so, while engaging in some deep breathing exercises and reminding myself that you too are a child of God (gentle humor), I tried to look at why. It helped me identify the source of some of my anger towards my H. My H has never made me feel as though he thought he was entitled to sex regardless of my feelings, but I have often felt that he does take it for granted that I will take care of all of the boring, messy, icky, tedious parts of life and that that's just the way it should be. I don't think he is aware that this is the interpretation I sometimes have of his behavior. I need to find a way, one that he can hear, to let him know what a libido-buster this kind of behavior can be. Once he knows that it has a strong potential to interfere with our sex life perhaps he'll be motivated to stop. Thank you for helping me to this insight. I sincerely mean that.
If your wife agrees with your view of marriage as you have presented it here, then your argument should be persuasive to her and she should provide you with the sex you want. On the other hand, if she doesn't, it will fail. Think of this as a marketing situation. You want to sell the idea of more sex to your wife. The best salespeople find out what motivates their customer. Then they make their sales pitch to that motivation. It's a quicker method of achieving the goal than trying to get the customer to buy something by altering the customer's motivations. I don't have your view of marriage and sex and thankfully neither does my H. That doesn't matter because you and I aren't married. If the obligation argument hasn't been working fo you, does your wife have the same view of marriage and sex as you do?
You may want to think about what really floats your boat here:
More sex with your spouse or convincing her of her obligations to you as you see them.
It's hard when people are really angry or hurt to not want to hurt back though. And if you're got ammunition...man, it can be even harder to resist! Just keep your eyes on the goal of making it easier for your wife to talk to you.