Hi everyone, I’m new to the forum and would like to share my story. I am 45 and my wife is 36. We met 8.5 years ago and would have been married for 7 years on January 1st. No kids. I am a teacher and she is a banker. She told me she wanted to separate on December 11th. I was devastated, extremely sad and scared, but am now in a better place. Here is more information and I would appreciate all suggestions and comments.
This is the third time my wife has wanted to separate. I have heard: 1) I love you but am not in love with you, 2) I don’t know if it’s me or it it’s you, of me with you or you with me, 3) I think I was in love with marrying someone like you but not in love with marrying you… sound familiar? During the past two years, there has been little intimacy or affection from her, and I have felt more resented and tolerated than loved. I feel this has become a very one-sided relationship and she has not been committed to the marriage. There is no abuse of any kind (physical, drug, alcohol, gambling), we are best friends, get along well, love spending time together, I have been supportive of her taking courses, to move to a different town/city if she gets a promotion. She says I am a great househusband and a great catch, but not the guy for her.
Some issues we have… I am overweight and an emotional eater. I have finally realized I need help and cannot lose weight by willpower alone. A counselor has helped and I have lost 37 lbs so far. My wife was upset because there are times when I would make excuses to get out of going to fancy events with her since I could not fit into nice clothes and was stuck on self-loathing. After a while, she just started going with girlfriends or colleagues. We still went to many casual events together. In her case, she cannot let go of past issues and continuously drags up the past, making it very difficult to move forward. I have found she also blames me for our problems and projects her inadequacies on me. While I have been working hard to make this marriage better, it has been a one-sided effort. I do not feel my wife has ben part of the solution. I have also had ED issues which Viagra, Cialis and Levitra did little to improve. I felt like less of a man and shied away from sex. Didn’t seem to make a difference since my wife told me she would be happy without sex and once asked if I would happy in a marriage without sex. Of course, I said no.
Last June she also wanted to separate, but decided to stay together. We spoke of concerns, and I worked on myself, saw a counselor, made changes, and she noticed a difference. All the while she insisted I was the only one with the problem. We had a GREAT summer – the connection, intimacy, affection, and fun were all back. It was better than ever. I’d lost 40 lbs. However, once the school year started, I gained weight, and she pulled away. Then we became each other’s cause and effect and grew apart.
We stayed together from September to December. I felt increasingly resented and tolerated. After she said she wanted to separate, we saw a marriage counselor. I was hoping for tools, she was hoping for a way out. The MC said there was no common ground to work from, that I was not getting the intimacy and love I need and she was not committed to the relationship. We met him individually. When asked where my wife saw herself in five years, she said single, with great friends and family, willing to go wherever the bank wanted to send her. In my session, he said in all his years of counseling, he was not sure why someone would not want to work on a marriage with so much going for it. He said he felt my wife has an “emotional instability” but could not say more. He then said something that stuck with me: “maybe you’re not rock and roll enough for her”.
During the past few weeks I have begged her to stay, she has gotten scared when I showed backbone, and she will be moving to a new apartment next month (currently staying with her parents). She says she needs this break to work on herself, to get some space, to decide if we have a future and if her career is number one. I have accepted this is going to happen. She has bought appliances for her place and a ton of stuff. We will be putting the house up for sale. I have no idea where I will be moving to but will make a decision when the time comes. She has hinted that if things work out she would move into my new house, or that maybe I could move into her apartment – really not sure if she means this or is stringing me along as an option.
More about my wife: she does not love or like herself. She is a star in her field and well respected. Because she doesn’t love herself, it’s like she needs external fulfillment to fill up her bucket, but there is a hole in the bottom. It’s never full. She never enjoys the moment and is always on the search for the next high/praise/rush/attention (one of her friends has also noticed this). She is great at blaming but not taking action. She says, “I want more… I deserve more” when talking about feeling in love and advancing her career. She has said this with real hunger in her voice.
More about me: In the last few weeks I have realized I got lost in this marriage. I lost my sense of self, my individual identity, my connection with close friends – I was entirely focused on my wife, on improving out marriage, and I have come to realize I was emotionally dependent on her for too much. I’ve been reading a book called “No More Mr. Nice Guy!” and found that I was a nice guy, but not in a good way, and the MC’s comment of not being “rock end roll enough for her” really made sense. I have decided to focus on myself for have regained my self-respect, strength and am reestablishing friendships, taking a course and exercising to improve my physical, mental and emotional self. If has been a hard five weeks, but I am in a better place. So far my wife has not contacted her counselor. She says she will, but she has a history of not following up on this matter. Same thing happened in June when I was told I was the one with the problems, not her. At least she realizes she does need help. That is a huge step for her!
We have seen our lawyers and the separation agreement is being drafted. We are changing out wills. We are civil with each other, but I have implemented the 180 rules to protect myself emotionally. I still love and am in love with my stbxw. I see part all her flaws and accept her for who she is – I love her. I cannot say the reverse is true. A week ago I finally stood up for myself and told her I was ok with her leaving, that I would be ok. I said I would no longer allow her to blame me for all of our marriage problems and that she could not longer project her inadequacies on me. I spoke calmly, did not raise my voice, but during that conversation I found my self-respect back. I told her it was the first time in two years I felt like a man, and it felt amazing.
Odd things: She has called this separation more of a break for her, and will see how she feels in a few months. She is leaving – I will not view someone as a priority when she sees me as an option and told her so. I will not be waiting around for her to make up her mind. I will be moving on as if the marriage is over – this means leading my own life, not dating or hooking up with anyone. It will take me a very long time to get to that place. I cannot imagine being with anyone but my wife, but she has told me she thought about cheating on me last June, to see if the lack of interest in sex and lack of passion she felt was because of me or her. She insists it was just a passing thought and I have no reason to believe she has cheated on me. Even now she claims there is not one else and that there are not emotional affairs.
I found this odd… whenever I hint that it’s over she panics, gets teary-eyed and scared. This happened when I told her I was changing my will, insisted she pack up or throw away our wedding stuff (without the marriage they are merely object and memories), and showed backbone. It this because she sees me as an option and as her security, or does it mean she is confused about her decision?
Whew… thanks for reading. I am looking forward to your insights on all of this. I am very open to anything you have to say. Do you think this is truly over, or is there a chance at reconciliation?
that is one great relationship summary, packed with valuable information!
first, no one can be inside W's head, but....if i had to bet, i would bet she is confused, for one simple reason: you are changing. and it sounds like truly for the better.
secondly, you are a natural at the principles of divorce-busting. you have already done some of the most critical things. you naturally understand you and your wife are a "system" - "then we became each other's cause and effect...". it is very helpful to understand this. it means you have the power and awareness to be the cause.
as i look at the overall arc of your story, you have quickly gone from shell-shocked and desperate to empowered and self-respecting. notice the equation: setting boundaries = self-respect = changes in the relationship atmosphere. by doing this in your case you discovered something very important - your W may not be so sure this is what she really wants.
you've also found a strange and paradoxical truth: pursuit of the withdrawing partner and resistance to the divorce plan almost invariably intensifies the determination of the withdrawer. conversely, dropping pursuit and resistance is where the withdrawer discovers their own uncertainties and mixed feelings.
keep building yourself and getting a life. if you want to lose weight, don't give up. i think the biggest difference between people who succeed at goals like this in the long run is they understand and accept it's an on-going process, and they don't become overly deflated with their so-called failures. your building of healthy behaviors will gradually displace unhealthy ones if you are patient with yourself and don't freak out about setbacks.
one final thought: i don't think you want to nag your W about IC. just likely to create resistance. the most powerful tool you have is the testimonial of your own example. she will notice the positive changes you are making and there is a chance she will want some of that for herself.
Thanks very much for your comments, onyourside2. They make sense.
I have reached out to my stbxw again and sent her a message about changing her mind and coming back home. I believe we have great deal going for us and can work through this with the help of a good counselor. Just last week and admitted "when it was good it was very good" and she does seem confused at times. However, she insists the separation is something she has to do to get some space and figure things out on her own, which include how she feels about our future together and if her career is more important than the marriage. In a sense, I feel it is already over. We have been more like roommates than a married couple during the past couple of years, despite some very bright spots in the past year - which is the evidence (to me) that we are more than friends.
This is what makes it all so painful. I want her back as much as I realize it has not been a very healthy or happy past two years. But when I think about the reasons, they are all things than can be worked out with a marriage counselor.
I suppose time will tell. Until then, all I can do is focus on myself - for me, not in false hope there is a future for us as a couple. I miss her dearly, and while I am not focused on the past, I have learned enough from it ti make better decisions for the future. As Michele stated in a video, I am in training to become a better husband to someone else in the future. I hope she turns out to be my stbxw. Time will tell.
in the last 60 days how many conversations have you and W had about your marriage? who has initiated them usually? is there a pattern to the course and outcome of these conversations?
none of us has a divining rod to read other people's minds or know the future course of events. and in the day to day trenches of this intense relationship uncertainty, things can get even more confusing and uncertain. people don't always mean what they say or say what they mean.
yet, if there are 100 DBers on this site, i would guess that a fairly good percentage of them are in situations where the withdrawing spouse truly is uncertain. and that's why i think the first rule of divorce busting triage is to stop directly pursuing your partner to save your marriage. this just gets people to both internally (with themselves) and externally (with you) go into justifying, defending and solidifying their actions.
one thing your W did that does get my attention more than words or intentional actions - its her spontaneous emotional reaction when you look like you're the one getting ready to throw in the towel. that definitely says something to me.
have you tried going dark for a couple days to see what happens?
in the last 60 days how many conversations have you and W had about your marriage? who has initiated them usually? is there a pattern to the course and outcome of these conversations?
Before Dec 11th (she announced she wanted to separate) we did not talk about the marriage. We had a great summer where everything was back, but then in the fall I fell back into emotional eating, she pulled away and we did not communicate about what was happening. My stbxw did not want to have our long conversations about problems, so she did not bring it up. I did not either, since I was afraid she would say she wanted to leave, as she'd done this twice before. Clearly, communication is an issue. I am the better communicator, while my stbxw tends to hold things in and they fester (what I describe as retention issues). The only pattern has been my stbxw wanted to leave, and this time, that I was scared to say anything that would lead to her saying she wanted to separate.
That's been the most frustrating thing, to know we have so many things going for us that many married couples would kill for, yet she doesn't 1) feel in love, 2) want to have sex (with me or anyone), 3) she doesn’t want to "fail" again by giving this another try (but isn’t marriage a team effort?), 4) feels she needs time and space to figure things out and address her personal issues, 5) figure out if the problem is me, her or as she puts it “her with me or me with her” and 6) decide if her career is more important that the marriage or me. She has told me we may end up back together but there are no guarantees, but we are about to face some major disruptions to our lives with her moving to an apartment next week and our putting the house up for sale. I have sent her many messages and asked her to reconsider, that I felt it was a mistake, that I knew we could make it through this together… but this is the third time she has said she is no longer in love with me and the second time she has wanted to leave the marriage.
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none of us has a divining rod to read other people's minds or know the future course of events. and in the day to day trenches of this intense relationship uncertainty, things can get even more confusing and uncertain. people don't always mean what they say or say what they mean.
She does seem uncertain. When I show I am willing to move on, she panics. I feel she is uncertain and confused, yet determined this is something she needs to do. I am open to seeing a good marriage counselor, I have been reading self-help books, working on my weight and health, more than willing to work with her on our marriage, but she is not interested.
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yet, if there are 100 DBers on this site, i would guess that a fairly good percentage of them are in situations where the withdrawing spouse truly is uncertain. and that's why i think the first rule of divorce busting triage is to stop directly pursuing your partner to save your marriage. this just gets people to both internally (with themselves) and externally (with you) go into justifying, defending and solidifying their actions.
You’re right, and this past weekend I did follow that guideline. I messages her three times about giving us another chance, then I realized I was smothering her and not doing me any favors. So, enough of that. She thanked me for the messages, but said she needed time to know if we’ve simply grown apart, fallen out of love or got lost in the fog (a term we use to describe issues we never have dealt with).
My last reply to her was the following: “The evidence was clear... when we communicated and reconnected we were in a much better place, but did not keep the communication going or seek better tools from a counselor when we had the chance. Then the fog rolled back in and we became each other's cause and effect. This is not because we are not good for each other. Rather, and based on a lot of material I have been reading, it was due to poor communication, not dealing with past hurt and not acquiring better skills. This is how the success story couples got out of their rut - some patience, time, tools and commitment. What a shame we are not taking advantage of that same opportunity. I put too much pressure on you emotionally by not having outside interests and because too much of my focus was on you/us for my fulfillment. I get that. I did not make you feel emotionally secure or assured in some ways. I get that. The reverse was true. Complex? Yes. Workable? Yes.”
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one thing your W did that does get my attention more than words or intentional actions - its her spontaneous emotional reaction when you look like you're the one getting ready to throw in the towel. that definitely says something to me.
What does that say to you? From what I can figure out, it means two things: she is confused about her feelings and needs reassurance or some sort, and that she seems me as some type of security. A friend suggested she simply wants to see what is out there on her own, and if things don’t work out she feels she has me to fall back on – a security of some sort. That make sense? What were you thinking?
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have you tried going dark for a couple days to see what happens?
Yes I have. Last week I went dark for a couple of days. She texted me twice (just to say the was at the house then was leaving), sent me a Facebook message the next morning, then emailed me to see if I’d received her texts (said it was from her new phone, so she wanted to make sure I’d got them). I replied to her email saying that I did, but that was it. I had to message her this morning about a family matter, then I am “going dark” for my emotional well-being.
While I have been living alone since the beginning of January, she has been living with her parents until her apartment I ready. When she moves in, it will be the fist time she lives alone. She loves to loves to organize and craves attention (it is all about her). So, for the first month she will love getting her new place ready then showing it off to friends and family. This will mask possible feelings of loneliness, but after those highs are gone, I wonder how she will feel?
Her decision to separate is so devastating. We are best friends, love spending time with each other, supportive of each other, make each other laugh, love to travel together, have many common interests… but on the flipside, there has been little intimacy since our great summer, I feel resented, she does not want me to accompany her to events she attends (does not want to have to babysit me – no reason why, as I am not clingy, thing is she doesn’t want to “babysit” anyone else either) – it’s as if she needs all of the attention on HER.
Add to this that I am living with stage I cancer (multiple myeloma) which has been dormant for three years and I am healthy. I feel she is bailing on me, and I feel abandoned. I always took comfort in knowing she’d be there with me when I got sick, and not I am facing my life as a single man. This adds an additional burden to the separation. What a life.
i think you are getting it, but look at the text of your own reply to me very carefully and keep a scorecard. when you approach her in any way, i repeat in anyway! (i am being playful with that) what is her reaction? conversely, when you pull back, set boundaries or go dark, what is her reaction? i'm being very sincere now: is there any doubt about what the pattern is?
as far as what her reactions mean to me, yes, i think it may reflect uncertainty or confusion (although none of us can know for sure). but do you notice none of that comes out when you are pursuing?
remember, you are you and she is she. no matter how beneficial you perceive your marriage to be, she is an entirely different person and at this point perceives it differently. i have been where you are and i know how difficult this is. it's shocking, confusing, mystifying, heartbreaking and many other things.
will you do me a favor and make a list of five very, very, very small things you will do tomorrow that are different from what you typically do and then do them? and then let me know what that was like?
i think you are getting it, but look at the text of your own reply to me very carefully and keep a scorecard. when you approach her in any way, i repeat in anyway! (i am being playful with that) what is her reaction? conversely, when you pull back, set boundaries or go dark, what is her reaction? i'm being very sincere now: is there any doubt about what the pattern is?
We have not seen each other since January 12th. She is moving out next week, and I may not see her for weeks yet, despite living in the same small town. To answer your question, prior to the breakup and for several weeks she would often pull away when I hugged has and kisses were little more then pecks. Last summer (before we let the fog roll back in), the intimacy and connection where definitely there, although she claims our great summer was just her trying, and that she was faking it until she could make it. From sometime in October-Dec 11th, she was friendly, we had fun together, enjoyed each other's company, but I felt a distance from her.
From Dec. 11- Jan. 12, the pattern was that I was in tears, was not beyond begging her to stay, wanted to see a marriage counselor to build on tools and communication... and during this time she was mostly calm (although there were some tears) and kept saying she needed space, the separation was more like a break (feel like it's over now), she wanted to live alone for a while and more. The moment I showed strength or an indication I was willing to take the next step in the separation (such as changing my will), she was rattled and teary-eyed.
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as far as what her reactions mean to me, yes, i think it may reflect uncertainty or confusion (although none of us can know for sure). but do you notice none of that comes out when you are pursuing?
Yes I have, and I realize I need to stop pursuing. Every step forward I take toward her is probably making her take three steps back.
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remember, you are you and she is she. no matter how beneficial you perceive your marriage to be, she is an entirely different person and at this point perceives it differently. i have been where you are and i know how difficult this is. it's shocking, confusing, mystifying, heartbreaking and many other things.
You're telling me. I have heard that at her work she seems happy without a hint of hurt. She has always been good at hiding her true emotions (fooled me last summer when I felt/thought out connection was back). I have heard she seems happy, looking forward to being single and her independence. A mutual friend has said the same thing... that she is looking forward to being single. That makes me feel so rejected, hurt... it's like I don't matter at all and have been thrown away like an old shoe. I miss my wife and best friend, but it's like she doesn't even care about me or about us. THAT is very hard to deal with.
What do you this means?
I made the mistake of sending her a message this morning about that that... asking her if she feels we still have a chance, if we're done, and letting her know that I feel rejected and am hurting. I mentioned her actions were a good indication of what she thought about our marriage, our relationship, about me, and says a lot about her as a person. I realize it was not smart to send her this message. There are no indications there is someone else in the picture, but she is so concerned about her reputation she would go to great lengths to hide things if there was indeed an affair.
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will you do me a favor and make a list of five very, very, very small things you will do tomorrow that are different from what you typically do and then do them? and then let me know what that was like?
Sure...
1) When I get emotional about her and this loss, change my thoughts to something more positive. 2) Until the house sells, rearrange furniture to make the house feel different. 3) Not obsess over Facebook as much. 4) Try to enjoy my free time and watch a movie alone. 5) Read more of the self-help books I've bought instead of getting so down.
I realize I have to work and focus on myself and what I can control. Although I wish my wife happiness, so hear that she is so happy leaving our marriage is absolutely heart-breaking. I know I am a good guy. There has been no abuse, cheating (at least on my side), I am not controlling, I support her in her goals. Heck, even our marriage counselor said that in all of his years as an MC he cannot figure this situation out... of why someone would want to leave a marriage with so much going for it. My wife has said she doesn't love/like herself, and maybe that's part of things... she has told me she feels she has to address her personal issues before she can see about addressing those of our marriage. She does not feel strong enough to do both.
So, I am in a situation where I feel so much desire t work on us, but she is just not interested. That is very, very painful.
I am going through the exact same thing. I feel your pain. My W as well had everything going for her in life with me. I was good to her. She has personal issues as well. She left me 4 months ago and yesterday she says she is loving life on her own and wants a dissolution. Her family will be devastated just as much as I am. Reading your post sounds like we are M to the same person. I feel you. I've put in countless hours of work and she has taken notice but just isnt interested either. I hope things work out for you.
i really understand how hard and confusing it is to feel discarded. yet - years later and out of the emotional trenches - i clearly see that at the end of the day i am responsible for how i feel about myself. and if i am so vulnerable to the way just one other person feels about me, its a major wake up call that i need to do things to build myself, or GAL as they say here.
here is what i learned canguy: i can build myself in utterly the worst of circumstances as long as i know where i want to go and can break the steps down into small enough pieces. and believe me, i had to learn to break things down into tiny, ridiculously small steps on the hardest days. but it worked. at the end of those days i could still say i took those tiny steps. and they kept adding up. and yours will, too. and little by little, bit by bit, you regain your pride and self-respect. and then something really cool happens: you realize that all this pain has truly helped you transform yourself to a higher level. and you are going to get there.
if you are willing to, i will try to help you learn to do this. if so, please consider this question: if you woke up tomorrow, and a miracle had occurred, and everything in your life was exactly the way you wanted it to be, what would that look like?
I am going through the exact same thing. I feel your pain. My W as well had everything going for her in life with me. I was good to her. She has personal issues as well. She left me 4 months ago and yesterday she says she is loving life on her own and wants a dissolution. Her family will be devastated just as much as I am. Reading your post sounds like we are M to the same person. I feel you. I've put in countless hours of work and she has taken notice but just isnt interested either. I hope things work out for you.
Sorry to hear you're going through something similar, MissingMyFamily. I hope things work out for you too.
In my case, all I can figure is that my wife saw me as a "nice guy", which is not a good thing. Read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy!" and you'll see what I mean. I was way too dependent on my marriage and my wife for my needs and all of my energy was focused on making the marriage work (sound familiar?). I most definitely lost myself in this marriage.
Now I'm at a point where my wife is happy to be independent and single, she is a driving force in the community and her work, and seems so happy to have disposed of me. At least that's what if feels like. She says it is not easy for her either, but I'll have to take her work on that. I miss her very much and still love her dearly, but I am at the point where I resent her for bailing on our marriage without at least our having a chance to meet with a marriage counselor who would help guide us through the fog, as I call it. In my opinion, she took the easy way out, but then again... she has told me "you' keep forgetting (or ignoring) that I'm not in love with you".
She moves into her apartment this week and I am putting the house up for sale on the weekend. This is a very sad and surreal experience.
She has said she needs time and space to work on her issues, which I've read is "womanese" for "looking for a replacement". She needs time to figure out if we've grown apart, fallen out of love or if we've just gotten lost in the fog. When I asked her directly to tell me if it was over and to not play games, she keeps saying she needs time. That is rough... part of me hopes for reconciliation. Part of me feels I could never trust her emotionally ever again. We had a great summer where everything was back... the intimacy, sex, affection, communication, fun. In my mind we were better than ever, but in hers... she was just "trying" and "faking it until she could make it". Seems I have married an actor.
In any case, I have good moments and bad, and there have been some very dark ones indeed (I would never harm her, to be clear). There are days when I know I'll be ok, others where I don't know how I can go on. It's maddening.
