Wife Left (Part 2)

[CO1978]

Link to previous Thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2199256#Post2199256

[CO1978]

This morning W came to get S at 5:30, She had to be at work at 8:30, and was saying how tired she was and didn't like the driving back and forth. She brought up she wasn't sleeping well and didn't feel good, then said she felt terrible about not seeing S. She then began to get teary eyed and said "I feel like such a bad mother." I was quick to tell her, "You aren't a bad mother, you have been sick, you are great with S." She said she was headed to bed, since she was so tired and would probably only get an hour of sleep in before she had to take S to her mom's. We then started to talk a little more about her job and the long work weeks she has coming up for Christmas and future arrangements for S. She brought up how the dog has been kenneled up pretty much the whole time. I volunteered to have dog here while S was here, because S loves the dog. The next thing you know it my 15 minutes were up and she said she said was going to sleep. That was my day in a nutshell, I worked 2 hours overtime, since I had nobody waiting for me at home and really hate coming home to an empty house. Going to go on stair stepper for a workout, been doing that the last week, since my knees have been bothering me. Wondering if I will get S tomorrow, MIL is going out to western part of state to pick up BIL at college for Christmas break so there is no one to watch S tomorrow. W said she will try to switch shifts, or get one of her sisters to watch him. I reminded her I have IC session tomorrow night as well. I really don't want to go another day without S. She keeps saying she wants him here as much as possible, then says how she misses him and wants to get him a bed to sleep in over there.

[workinghardguy]

Hang in there 1978... remember it's a marathon not a sprint. Give W her space and let her figure it out, but don't rescue her. She picked a path, she needs to walk it. Trust me... I suck at this part and it keeps paying negative dividends since I don't do as I should.

And as far as the bed thing... obviously I don't know her financial situation or stresses. At the same time, our actions speak to our priorities. I would have to think she could find a used bed at a second-hand store or something for relatively cheap, and little kid mattresses aren't that much. But again, I don't know how tight cash is for her.

[edgarb]

Hey CO1978, just checking in for your new thread. You've come quite a long way since your first post and you should be proud. WHG has some good advice there...let her walk her path. I know how you feel though. I'd kill for my ex to even ask me for a favor. I'd have a hard time turning it down. Have a great day!

[sunshine76]

Hey CO1978, it's hard walking a fine line between helping someone that you love so deeply when they are clearly in need and giving them the space that they need in order to sort out their baggage, but it sounds like you are doing an amazing job of doing just that.

Try to hang in there. At some point this has got to get easier!

Take Care,
Sunshine

[25yearsmlc]

CO1978,

you asked some questions in general, and about Retrovaille and your situation so I'll post here.

RE, "how long does it take when someone needs space?" All I can say is that I have to see a marriage restored in such a short time as you seem to expect. She did not need a 2 week vacation to wake up.

You said that in your mc with her, that you accepted that you have a drinking problem and that you have some other issues.

What I'm not hearing is what you are doing to address those issues, other than trying not to drink?

First, are you going to meetings to get support in staying sober? My father was a brilliant lawyer and gov't official. He was also a raging alcoholic at night and it ruined my parent's m and much of our childhood growing up. I still loved him but he left us a very mixed legacy.

So if your w thinks you have a problem and a mc thinks so and you admitted to it, then it's real. How are you handling it?

Assuming that were your only issue, and I know it's not, I'd think the loosely applied rule of "month for every year of m" MIGHT apply and that would mean that you'd be sober for 7 months before you could assume your w believed the change was real.

here's the math of it----Consistent change + sufficient time = a spouse believing a change in you is real AND lasting.

Same goes for your other changes. So you are premature in thinking she should have snapped out of this by now. Very premature. See my signature block below for my time line and a different perspective on how long it "should" take.

I will post some suggestions to you that I got from my mc and former DB coach, who was such a Godsend!

This morning W came to get S at 5:30, She had to be at work at 8:30, and was saying how tired she was and didn't. like the driving back and forth. She brought up she wasn't sleeping well and didn't feeI good, then said she felt terrible about not seeing S. She then began to get teary eyed and said "I feel like such a bad mother." I was quick to tell her, "You aren't a bad mother, you have been sick, you are great with S."

before being "quick to tell her" anything, listen... and then LISTEN some more. Generally (and I stipulate that it's a big generalization)

when women are venting, we want mainly to be heard and validated, NOT fixed or necessarily reassured.

Let us talk. If you dismiss our concerns b/c we're simply perceiving things "wrong" then you are dismissing our concerns and essentially shutting us up. I KNOW that's not your intention, but it can come off that way.

it can Almost feel like what we heard was NOT a compliment but a topic change after our discussion was rendered moot...as in

"no w, you are wrong to say you FEEL like a bad mother, you are a good mother so this discussion is invalid and pointless. Now let's change the topic."

I'm not saying not to reassure her, but am pointing out how sometimes it's better to listen really hard to figure out what she needs.

There is no rule against you asking her, "W, How can I help?"

or "Would you like some feedback or should I just listen?"

If yes to the feedback, then how about, "w, you are a great mother b/c you -(GIVE SPECIFICS) and you also..."


make sense?


She said she was headed to bed, since she was so tired and would probably only get an hour of sleep in before she had to take S to her mom's.

We then started to talk a little more about her job



if she is so tired, why not end the talk then? Hear what she said and don't plunge ahead b/c of your needs. Besides, It's hard to have a good productive talk when one party is tired. Plus, talking on meant that her "tired" comment was glossed over.


and the long work weeks she has coming up for Christmas and future arrangements for S. She brought up how the dog has been kenneled up pretty much the whole time. I volunteered to have dog here while S was here, because S loves the dog.

so it's a bummer for the dog to be kennelled all day for sure, and it's nice that you offered to take him, and it's good for son too. So all in all, that's fine.

BUT note --- you wanted to FIX the problem that only arose BECAUSE she left...think about that.


The next thing you know it my 15 minutes were up and she said she said was going to sleep.


Remember the 37 rules? How do you feel you are doing with them?

How about YOU being the one to end the conversations?

How are you handling the issue of depression?

Since you agreed in mc that you have suffered from it and you both are now, are you getting help for it? I'm someone who has been there and done that so I make no judgement on it. I say do what helps, whatever it takes. Life is too short to feel crappy and have to numb the pain with booze. Plus, you are modelling behavior for your son for he IS watching you and will see you the rest of his life. Best to deal with it all now...

and your w will notice the new upbeat you and that is attractive CO, really....a guy who is down a lot (I used to do criminal law and regardless of which side I was on, it was very easy to get cynical and jaded and depressed when you are faced with man's ugliness to man, 10 hrs a day...really easy.

And that's a drag to be around if you bring it home with you...or drink to numb it all.

Bottom line is your wife will ONLY want to be married to you

if she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.

What are YOU doing to demonstrate that to her?

what are your 180s?

That was my day in a nutshell, I worked 2 hours overtime, since I had nobody waiting for me at home and really hate coming home to an empty house. Going to go on stair stepper for a workout, been doing that the last week, since my knees have been bothering me.

Keep up any and all exercise programs you have. It's good for YOU and looks good too.


Wondering if I will get S tomorrow, MIL is going out to western part of state to pick up BIL at college for Christmas break so there is no one to watch S tomorrow. W said she will try to switch shifts, or get one of her sisters to watch him. I reminded her I have IC session tomorrow night as well. I really don't want to go another day without S. She keeps saying she wants him here as much as possible, then says how she misses him and wants to get him a bed to sleep in over there.

her choices are painful ones for her and you. Of course she'd prefer not having to make them.

The problem is, as Crimson (?) discovered, that she believes it's YOU she cannot be around and that it MAY be worth losing valuable time with son,

to not be with you right now. Yes, that's painful to hear and see. Sorry.

I am just asking you to keep the focus on what you CAN do -

and that is work on YOU...so she sees the new you.

And last but not least,

no woman is unmoved by loving interactions between her child and his father. It's a turn on, frankly.

So be the best most actively involved father you can be now, for lots of reasons.

If she seems resentful at first, it may be b/c she wishes you'd done it sooner, and if she says that, you say "better late than never" and mean it.

As for Retrovaille....

well, if your w agreed to attend, that'd be great.

At this stage she may not see any point but then, if she's willing to go to mc and it's not "just for son", then why not ask her about Retrovaille?

Maybe you can say you want to "giving your best shot". (Avoid terms like "last attempt" or "last shot" b/c it implies an ultimatum and deadline and that's just way too soon imo, and it does not produce good results).

You really are new to this I'm afraid, as She has not been gone very long.

(Yes I know to you it's way way longer. I get that...but get real CO, I mean, it hasn't even been 2 months)

Is SHE getting help for her depression? (Other than leaving you, I mean...?)

Have you asked her about it? Are you afraid she'll say that the only reason she was depressed was b/c of you?

I understand the fear but the thing is, she's still bummed out. All is not going well yet you are not in the picture.

SO maybe don't ask too much but keep in mind that at some point, she will notice her happiness level has not skyrocketed even though you, "the big grump" are not there.

Let her notice that without you mentioning it. Know that this will take much longer than you think it should.

She needs to see this and over TIME, it'll sink in..."gee, Co isn't here but I'm still bummed...maybe it's not HIM or at least not ALL him"

and THEN CO, she will look your way. It's up to you what she then sees. Is she going to see a man who impatiently thinks she should "get it by now"--

And who mutters to himself or shuts her out (which feels a lot like rejection and adds up over time)

and numbs himself so he's super UN-fun to be around?

OR is she going to see a changed man?

Become a man only a fool would leave.

After enough time has passed for her to wonder why everything isn't all rosy without you, THAT is what you want her to see.

(you cannot ever be the one to point this out, however)

[CO1978]

First off 25 thank you so much for replying and taking your time out to help me. I got to make this quick, got a busy day, will try to post more tonight. Here is a list of things I needed to improve on and some ways I can improve them. As for quitting drinking I haven't yet found a support group that fits into my schedule, but I have cut out things that I associated with drinking. My close friends have been very supportive with helping me through this as well. I also have been going to IC each week to help deal with my issues (alcoholism and depression). I've been on a good exercise routine to at least 5 times a week which is really helping me feel good, and work stress is down a lot from just not working with a guy that I consider a negative aura stress monster. I worked with him for 3 and a half out of the last 4 years, and no longer have to deal with him, that alone feels like a weight off my shoulders. Also I read The Four Agreements by don Miguel Ruiz which really helped me take a new outlook on things. I know these changes aren't in stone yet, but the more I apply them every day the more routine they become the more permanent they become.
I will for now on shut my mouth and listen to her and give feedback when asked :P For now on in the mornings when she says she is tired, maybe I should say "Well I know you are probably tired, we can talk another time." That way I don't seem like I'm clinging to conversation or "glossing" over her saying she is tired. Also I will try my best to stop trying to fix everything, and stop helping her out. I am going to continue to strive to be the best father I can be, I am spending more time with S, taking him out, I spent night in Hospital with him and have been taking him to doctors appointments (stuff she always did). I am still looking for a church, something I really want to do.
As for her, she has gone to IC once, and is canceling next appointment because of work. She said she is going to se a specialist for her PTSD. Would she try Retrovaille, I don't know right now, probably not.

• Quit Drinking
[Sober starting November 3rd, 2011]

• Control of Money
*Separate bank accounts
*Do not say “No, we can’t afford it” say “We can look into it, maybe put some money aside and get it after a future pay”
*I am not sole provider, can’t justify buying something for her that is just as expensive or more expensive as her wanting to buy something for herself, S, or all of us.

• Communication
*Actively Listen, Openly Talk about anything and everything
*No more putting up “walls” Is there something wrong? If I am acting like there is something wrong maybe there is, TALK about it regardless
*If she tells me something she has already told me before, let her tell it again, it obviously has meaning to her. “I remember you telling me about that…go on…”
*If she tells me something that I already know about, instead of saying “Yes, I know,” and it being the end of the conversation, say “I read/heard about that…” (and discuss it with her).
*If we disagree on something or have a fight “I see what you mean, I don’t necessarily agree, but I understand.”
*Positive Reinforcement: The answer is NEVER NO! If she is having a bad day, find something good about it. Don’t point out negatives in her work, unless she asks for judgment
*Respect her decisions and opinions / we are equal in decisions *NEVER SAY NO! We can talk about it, and agree on it.
*NEVER ASSUME
*Never take her for granted

• Stop trying to be a perfectionist
*Everybody has their own view of perfection, there is no perfection, don’t expect perfection
*Do set agreements on standards with each other
*Share housework (do it together) so we both know each other’s standards
*ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST

• Religion
*“A family that prays together stays together”
*Find a church we both like and agree on and can make it to the services as much as possible
*Family Dinner

• Show her my feelings
*Random small stuff, like nurturing her when she is sick, flowers just because, a note that says “I love you”, ect.
*Reciprocate “I Love You” every time
*Hug and kiss her on hellos and goodbyes, Kiss her and say “Goodnight”
*Appreciate everything she does; don’t point out negatives when she does something for me, Say “Thank You.”
*Night out just 2 of us at least once a month/ once a week even better
*If she asks to go somewhere with her GO! (Hiking, visit parents/grandparents, park, store, ect)
*Get involved with her interests
*Give her the best of you

• NO JELOUSY
*Spend more time with her family, she loves them, I should too

• Become Best Friends
*First one she wants to talk to, first one I want to talk to.
*Activities together or as a family as much as possible.
*Night out just 2 of us at least once a month/ once a week even better
*If she asks to go somewhere with her GO! (Hiking, visit parents/grandparents, park, store, ect)
*Try new stuff (camping, mountain biking, rafting, skiing, play in the snow)
*Get involved with her interests
*Give her the best of you

• “WALKING ON EGGSHELLS”
*How I can help her trust me again:
*Quit drinking: no more nastiness
*No more perfectionist attitude
*Control anger (don’t take things personal, it’s NOT her fault don’t make her feel like it is)
*If I am upset, let her know why!! Don’t push her away
*Accept I am wrong at times (my opinion is not the only opinion), and not be offended by it (don’t take things personal)
*Appreciate everything she does; NEVER point out negatives or what else she could do when she does something for me
*SAY THANK YOU!!!!!! Give her a hug and kiss to show her I appreciate her
*DON’T TAKE THINGS PERSONAL: Started to wear wedding band to work, inmates can’t bother me if I don’t take things personal

• De-stress time when I get home from work:
(AGREEMENT TOGETHER)
*Say “hello”
*Run on tread mill or go for family walk
*Talk about day
*Continue normal day

[CO1978]

I am always upbeat around her (besides of coarse the first couple days and one backslide 2 weeks ago). I try not to talk about myself at all and let her vent (mostly about work). Today W stopped by to pick up her mail, she was waiting on her bank card to come and her new phone. I had told her I would call her when they came as she had asked me to, but I guess she still wanted to check anyway. I didn't ask her anything about her day or work, left conversation about when I would get S again. She said she would bring him over tomorrow around 4pm, and since she is off friday she would just spen the day here with him until I got home (probably so she can pack more of her stuff up). I said good, because I really miss the guy. She said "How do you think I felt going 4 days without seeing him." I didn't say a peep. She then asked to use my computer to print something out for her sister. She showed me what she printed out: her sister's christmas gift for her husband Steelers vs Rams football tickets for Christmas eve. I did comment "Wow that is a heck of a gift" (the Rams are my team). She said something else about the game and it being a Christmas gift, and I said "you don't have to pour salt on the wound." jokingly, which made her crack a smile and say sorry. She said she would see me tomorrow and left.

[CO1978]

Tonight was at IC, didn't feel the best coming out. Therapist said I am on right path and everything on my end is looking good. I told him about W saying "I'm not coming back, it's over, I don't love you anymore." He said I need to start looking at "what if" she means that and look to see when I am ready to ask her where we stand and where are we headed. I told him I still want to fight for our marriage, and he said that is good, so its not time to ask that yet, but I should still prepare my mind for it. He said W's damage goes back a lot farther than just a month probably 1-2 years at least, and it may not be undone. She needs to get help and must want the help, and it may not include me. He does want to see the 2 of us together again (doubt W will want to). I know I do need to accept this may not work out, I am just not ready to yet. Thinking of future arrangements for S is not going to be good, obviously what we are doing right now wouldn't be valid if we got D. I don't go back until first week of January. I guess I DB until then. I am not close to wanting to quit and there for I will not bring up anything of our M. I will shut up and listen, validate her, ask "I understand how you feel, is there anything I can do to help?" or "do you want my opinion or do you want me to just listen". I am not going to "rescue" her or "fix" her problems. I will concentrate on ME and S. I think I feel a little down right now, because I do realize that M may be over, but I do know I can be happy without her.

[25yearsmlc]

I love your lists! Way to decode this!...

hey, sorry for the length of this one but I won't be able to post much longer soon...

You have many things NOT to do on your list so maybe you could
write up a TO DO list, as opposed to so many "NOT TO DO" things...

we all usually know from childhood that a parent or someone around us demonstrates behaviors we don't want to emulate...so we usually know what "not" to do. Yet in times of crisis, we revert to those negatives.

That's partly why abusers, drinkers, yellers, etc all repeat things they vowed not to do as they grew up. In good times they are usually fine.
But in the heat of the moment, they go back to what they know and that's not always a good thing.


So we need to replace that negative example of what NOT to do, with a positive one of what TO Do...OR we'll revert to what we know.

fortunately I have seen someone lern from the positives and change their lives and leave a legacy of that.

My h's bf, "Dale", is a great father and husband. Probably the best one I know and we've been best friends for our whole marriage and before that, we double dated in college. We go way back.

But Dale came from a broken home. Worse, after his father was divorced the 3rd time, he dad took his own life. So Dale's primary male role model was a very very dark negative model for living...

So how did Dale become such an amazing dad and husband? How can one be so different and better when his own role model was so flawed?


Simple...not "easy" but not complicated. Dale told me that he found another role model, -men he admired who acted as mentors to him. They modelled for him what normal healthy loving men do...even and especially in bad times or crisis.

One positive role model was his fil. I know his FIL too, and he IS a great dad and husband!...

but you know, CO1978, the kicker is, that FIL came from a broken home too! His family disowned him when he married way back in 1951.

so you see, others have made their way but it sure is easier when you have someone in mind to emulate in those dark times. Most of us are fine in smooth days. It's the angry nights of rejection and stress that test us. So Seek those positive role models out.

It's very important to find those men who support and encourage and model positives for you.

Tonight was at IC, didn't feel the best coming out. Therapist said I am on right path and everything on my end is looking good. I told him about W saying "I'm not coming back, it's over, I don't love you anymore." He said I need to start looking at "what if" she means that and look to see when I am ready to ask her where we stand and where are we headed.


your t wants you to know deep down that you will survive whatever happens...and you will and you'll be happy again.

BUT my gosh it is way to soon to think this is near over...you've barely been in DB land and your w is only now realizing that a 4 day stint away from son stinks and that's what she'll face if you two divorce

but if your changes are real, and lasting, then of course she'll second guess her choice to leave. But that takes way more time!

and I myself said I thought our m was over. 5 years ago I gave it a "10% chance of success"....


I told him I still want to fight for our marriage, and he said that is good, so its not time to ask that yet, but I should still prepare my mind for it.


so maybe you ought to hope & work For the best, and prepare for the worst?



He said W's damage goes back a lot farther than just a month probably 1-2 years at least, and it may not be undone.

The good news is that the T sees this and I assume she'll work on them...right?
as for timing...
There is a "rule of thumb" around here that says a month for every year of marriage til the WAS believes the changes you are making are real and will last if she comes home.

that means 7 months, right?


She needs to get help and must want the help, and it may not include me.


she is on a journey, like all of us. She might not invite you soon, but she may someday. And it might be sooner rather than later. It's too early to tell right now.

He does want to see the 2 of us together again (doubt W will want to). I know I do need to accept this may not work out, I am just not ready to yet.

do not confuse preparing for the worst in the deep recesses of your mind, with giving up. They are very different. You'd be weird not to admit it's possible she won't want to come home no matter what you do.

That means your changes must be real and lasting for YOU so that you are the man you were meant to become. You'll be a better partner for sure, and that matters b/c your chance of being here again, is greatly diminished by making those changes

and besides, the more loving a h you become, the happier and more loving your future r's will become. Hopefully with your w, but if not, so be it.

OTOH, in my opinion those who prepare for failure within the first few months of supposed DBing, reveal shortcomings of their own

(OR a very low reserve for this. I'd be in that category now, b/c I have been through all this and for me, DBing through a crisis is a once in a lifetime deal. I could not do it again
but I have no regrets to have gone through what I did. Hope that makes sense.)


Thinking of future arrangements for S is not going to be good, obviously what we are doing right now wouldn't be valid if we got D. I don't go back until first week of January. I guess I DB until then.


um yeah...and beyond.

Why is it being given such a short experimental time? I mean, do you have a plan B that isn't getting explored or what? What else would you do, give up?


I am not close to wanting to quit and there for I will not bring up anything of our M. I will shut up and listen, validate her, ask "I understand how you feel, is there anything I can do to help?" or "do you want my opinion or do you want me to just listen". I am not going to "rescue" her or "fix" her problems.


I think if you are open, and flexible/adaptable, you will do well with this^^^ approach.

I will concentrate on ME and S. I think I feel a little down right now, because I do realize that M may be over, but I do know I can be happy without her.

Good plan but I'm sorry you are sad right now. I promise this does get easier.

FYI, re: the drinking, keep looking for a good support group in AA. There are more groups than you know, all around you. I joined a 12 step program for dependency on pain pills after a 3rd/final spinal surgery.

Plus my dad was an alcoholic and I went to Al a Teen when I was young.

I learned a lot. Sure, there are some people and groups that don't mesh well b/c they might be the demographic that has nothing in common with you. You may feel unwelcome or uncomfortable in some settings although the first meeting usually is stressful no matter what.

but keep looking. I eventually found a group of professional women. That was great b/c it circumvented the whole "guy hitting on me" worries.

And the socioeconomic groups matter too, NOT b/c of inherent snobbism on my end (though i think I have a streak of it).

But mostly b/c I had a lot to lose if my problem wasn't solved. There were folks there who already had lost everything, or never had anything to start with. They frightened me, or tried to glom onto me, or they got me thinking that I was above them. So I kept searching.

I can see how your profession would make certain groups (court ordered?)

less appealing. But I have a strong feeling there are 12 step groups FOR YOUR profession...

there are many groups for L's that's for sure.

They are anonymous and you are not doing anything illegal anyhow, so don't fret that it'll hurt your career.

Plus If you are successful in the program, that's all anyone cares about.

It took me a long time to trust that I could get help without being damaged professionally. I figured the risk of damaging my career was actually a lot higher if I didn't get help though...

IMO, the people I know who've gone through 12 step programs have the most integrity of any group I know. They are calm, reasonable, fair and honest.

a good 12 step program is a LOT like good DBing...personal accountability, letting go of what we cannot control, but controlling ourselves and how we act.