Vacillations of a WAW Come Home III

[hoping]

Jethro..I went out and got the The Five Love Languages book, and while there saw the other books Chapman wrote..a great one I got is Hope-For The Seperated, Wounded Marriages Can Be Saved.The back cover says that a seperation may not be the end, but a new beginning.So I am so excited to read what he has to say..he is involved with a Baptist Church, and Baptists have different ideas then I might believe, but hey..it looks so good.I wonder if somewhere I should suggest h to read it.
Hope your day was good..Illinois is getting our first snow storm of the season tonight..6-12 inches in northern Ill..
Take care..will let you know more about how I like the books.
Sue

[bmcbeth]

Sue
I know this isnt your thread but i hope you check it.
Chapman's book Hope for the Separated is excellent. trying to figure out a way to get my W to read it as well
BMc

[jethro]

Hey all. Well, things have been staying at an even keel, not really moving forward, but not really moving backwards. Although, it seems my W has been a little distant with me lately...not like a WAW distance, but distant nonetheless. I still have not heard another ILY initiated by her, unless I say so first or mention that it's nice to hear it. So, I won't say it to her, as I just wonder if it's pressure.

I never told you guys about a conversation I had with her last Saturday night when we went out for dinner. I was kind of down from last weekend because of all the R talk that I didn't want to post it. In any case, we were talking about what I needed in order for me to feel like were were okay now. You guys know what I mean. There's a difference between knowing you're going in the right direction, then knowing you're there and still moving forward positively. We are not there yet. She tried to get me to tell her how I would know this and I didn't really tell her. Basically, I think she would have to tell me how much she loves me and that she wants to spend the rest of her life with me. That's it, but it's certainly more than I can ask right now.

This led me to ask her if she's waiting for me to tell her I forgive her. Her reply was that "I want you to tell me when you're ready." So, I just nodded and we went on to other conversation. I just don't feel comfortable with saying it yet. I need more time. I still feel very hurt by her infidelity sometimes.

Monday the old Jethro came out and acted stressed around the W. I think it's because of a mom problem I'm having right now (I know how you feel Umbrella). Later that night in bed my W said, "I don't want to see the old Jethro come back because I like the new one." She says this sometimes because I'm sure she doubts my changes are permanent. Frankly, I sometimes doubt them too. Do you guys feel the same way? In any case, I asked her if she thought they were not permanent and she said she thought they were. Then I simply asked her not to say that anymore. I KNOW what I need to do and don't need to be reminded (didn't tell that to her, though). Actually, it freaks me out when she says this...hmmm...gotta wonder why...

So, I'm a little bummed because I'm not sure if we're going back to some of the same patterns we used to have (with me being stressed the other day and my W's distance), or that it's just me thinking this, and that they're are bumps along the way and it's no big deal in the long run. I don't really feel stressed right now or anything...used to big time. I don't know. It's my D's 5th b-day today, the entire clan is sick at home, and I need a big PMA boost.

jethro

[hoping]

Hey..sorry to hear everyone sick on d b-day..you can always celebrate tomorrow.
I know what you mean about the changes being for real..I sometimes don't think I have changed much..but I think I have...will the old habits creep back..that's where we have to be able to recognize them and stop them before they take over. You have your w at home and she seems to want to work things out.Let your heart heal...the forgiveness will come.
Take care
Sue

[lostlove]

I still feel very hurt by her infidelity sometimes.

jethro,
sadly I assume there will always be that sometimes...it may become less and less but I'd tend to think that there will always be a little ache in regard to it..what can we do about it??? know that our r's a better than they were before...or at least heading in that direction (god willing) that we have learned alot about ourselves and our spouses...an opportunity...they come in many forms ours unfortunately was infidelity.

I know you are having trouble with forgiveness...it is not an easy thing to give...but I think you are further along than you realize...if you did not forgive w you would not be working on the r in the fashion that you are...with the understanding that you have.

give yourself a break...your pain is your pain...yes it is a result of what she's done...but what can she do about it now so that you will forgive her?? should she have to do anymore than she is???

as I've expressed many times in regard to my own sit...I will forgive h when he forgives himself (that is a much harder task than mine...sometimes accepting forgiveness is much harder than giving it...the fact that I am willing to forgive h does not mean there aren't days when I'd like to tear him a new one...but I sit back and try to understand him and though I don't like it I do understand..

take care of you.

and the ILY's though they don't come as often as they did before all this mess...are more meaningfull when they do come. but I totally hear ya on that one...as if I'm waiting to just hear the words again..only 3 voluntary times from h since his admittance of confusion and trying to come home..back in sept.

there is a song...a sappy song...either mr big or ([censored] I hate when names jump away from me) more than words...I'll look it up for you if you don't know it.

[lisakate32]

jethro, my h is an only child and got away with a lot. i wonder if there is any research on was and their place in the family? interesting you mentioned the example of the photo album. we had a recent discussion in therapy how h would get mad if i took out the trash because that was "his job" but he would never do it. aren't relationships fun!

i was just wondering about my changes as the old lisa has been creeping in. the old fears come up because i am stressed and tired. sounds like you may be too. we have been changed jethro and nothing can undo it. we may slip back into familiar patterns, but look how uncomfortable it feels for us now. we recognize it as not feeling right. don't worry about this, you are doing great. happy birthday to your d! hope you all feel better soon, lisa

[AbbyH]

Monday the old Jethro came out and acted stressed

It is ok to be stressed. You cant be happy, even keel J everyday. What happens when you are stressed? Does anything in particular make it worse. Mine is lack of sleep.

I agree you are further along on the forgiveness than you think. Patience grassshopper.

Hope everyone feels better. How is your sister doing?

[sage]

This led me to ask her if she's waiting for me to tell her I forgive her. Her reply was that "I want you to tell me when you're ready." So, I just nodded and we went on to other conversation. I just don't feel comfortable with saying it yet. I need more time. I still feel very hurt by her infidelity sometimes.

This is really interesting...I've been so busy waiting for my H. to give me a passionate, heartfelt apology that it never occurred to me that he might be waiting for me to tell him that I forgive him...

Monday the old Jethro came out and acted stressed around the W. I think it's because of a mom problem I'm having right now (I know how you feel Umbrella). Later that night in bed my W said, "I don't want to see the old Jethro come back because I like the new one." She says this sometimes because I'm sure she doubts my changes are permanent. Frankly, I sometimes doubt them too. Do you guys feel the same way? In any case, I asked her if she thought they were not permanent and she said she thought they were. Then I simply asked her not to say that anymore. I KNOW what I need to do and don't need to be reminded (didn't tell that to her, though). Actually, it freaks me out when she says this...hmmm...gotta wonder why...

I worry sometimes that I'm not going to be able to sustain the changes that I've made -- particularly when I think of the life changes (kids, sickness, death of parents, etc) that would make life more stressful....but, I know from our MC experience of a few years ago that we HAVE been able to sustain a lot of good things with little effort -- the way that we argue now (much more constructively), etc. I also think that sometimes just being able to note that you're falling back into an old pattern is "good enough" at times -- seeing the old stuff emerge and recognizing it seems like a step in the right direction.

Sage

[Umbrella24]

Hey jethro. Sorry about the mom stuff. Still too fresh in my mind to think about.

Later that night in bed my W said, "I don't want to see the old Jethro come back because I like the new one." She says this sometimes because I'm sure she doubts my changes are permanent. Frankly, I sometimes doubt them too. Do you guys feel the same way? In any case, I asked her if she thought they were not permanent and she said she thought they were. Then I simply asked her not to say that anymore. I KNOW what I need to do and don't need to be reminded (didn't tell that to her, though). Actually, it freaks me out when she says this...hmmm...gotta wonder why...

This is interesting. I think you're trying to pin your insecuraties about your changes on your W. She is telling you straight up that she appreciates the changes you've made, and the work you've done. She has said that she believes your changes are permanent. What more can she do to convince you of that?

Sometimes I wonder if I can keep up my changes also. Every now and again, I find myself slipping a little. So I have to make a conscious effort every day. I try to read my goals every morning when I first get up, to keep me on the path I need to be on.

I think you guys are just miscommunicating. You think she says those things to remind you to keep working. I think there's a good possibility that she says those things to thank you, and show you that she knows what you're doing, and appreciates it. Am I way off the mark on this one?

[jethro]

Thanks Sue, LL, Lisa, Abby, Sage, and Jim.

You have your w at home and she seems to want to work things out.

I know, Sue. But, unfortunately, the last week, I feel the operative word in your sentence here is "seems." I don't see her trying like she was only just a couple of weeks ago. Could it be the big R talk last weekend pushed her a little? Who knows...

if you did not forgive w you would not be working on the r in the fashion that you are...

I don't know. Is this true? I think I made a decision to try and forgive because I have two children I need to take care of. I'm not sure that I've forgiven yet. And unfortunately, somehow my forgiveness is tied to the level of effort she wants to put into our R. I feel more "forgiving" towards her when she's giving herself. Is this selfish? Maybe it's just the ying and yang of life, the fluidity of our Rs. Am I supposed to get past this? Problem is, I WILL NOT settle for an R that is unfulfilling. I've done this for too long.

should she have to do anymore than she is???

Yes. She needs to act like she wants to be with me, she needs to act like she loves me, she needs to not feel obligated to support my "love language," but just want to do it because it makes me happy. Basically, she needs to feel for me like I feel for her. Like I said, I will no longer settle for an unfulfilling R. I do know that this will take time, however...

there is a song...a sappy song...either mr big or ([censored] I hate when names jump away from me) more than words...I'll look it up for you if you don't know it.

You mean "More Than Words" by Extreme?

my h is an only child and got away with a lot. i wonder if there is any research on was and their place in the family?

You know, Lisa, I've been thinking about this more and more lately. I think because my W is an only child, she was allowed freedoms and attention that I was not. She was more or less allowed to do things without having to think of anyone else except herself (such as having to compete with a sibling). She can be very self-centered, and thus, I think is part of the reason she felt justified in having an A. Why should she worry about me?

What happens when you are stressed? Does anything in particular make it worse.

Not sure, Abby. For me, it's usually when a number of stresses are combined. Really, these things shouldn't get to me. With all I've been through the last year and a half, I think I can pretty much handle anything now.

I also think that sometimes just being able to note that you're falling back into an old pattern is "good enough" at times -- seeing the old stuff emerge and recognizing it seems like a step in the right direction.

I think you're right, Sage. Thanks...

I think there's a good possibility that she says those things to thank you, and show you that she knows what you're doing, and appreciates it. Am I way off the mark on this one?

Well, yeah, I think you're off the mark, Jim. It's like this...I used to be a pretty stressed and judgemental person. This caused friction with my W for obvious reasons. So, now I've really mellowed out. However, if I show stress now, my W feels she needs to let me know that I need to chill out...as though I'm not allowed to be stressed ever. I think this stems from her own fears of me going back to the old patterns...and her feeling tense when I exhibit these emotions. She's anticipating something worse than is really there because of the past. I guess I can only show her over time...and it will take time.

Thanks guys.

jethro