Asking for Help / Advice Please

[edgarb]

25yearsmlc -- Thank you so much for your post. It kind of puts things in perspective. I am not in any sort of formal recovery program. I have a counselor who I see about every 10-14 days depending on schedules. He is of course aware of the problems I am having and after speaking with him we decided to use kind of a custom program rather than me attending AA or entering a live in treatment facility. He has experience in the treatment of alcoholism.

As for the refusal to allow her to see the dogs, I guess deep down I have to admit that was an attempt at manipulating her. I tried to say I was doing it for myself because no contact with her was the only way to get over her. However, if I am honest, i must say that I hoped that would be a sort of shock to her and make her realize what she would be losing if we were no longer together. The next day, I spoke with my counselor and we decided that I had promised her I would always let her see them and I should not break that promise. Therefore, I sent her a text the next day saying that after thinking things over, anytime she wanted to see our dogs she should let me know and I would arrange for it to happen. She has not seen them or asked about them since that date with one exception. On Halloween, I sent her a "Happy Halloween" text and told her the dogs were doing good. She said that she wondered about them every day and had been missing them. I reiterated that she could see them any time she liked. I've tried not to tie seeing them to seeing me. Nonetheless, she has not asked to see them or asked about them since last week. I was sober when I did it, but I was angry with her. I was angry just because I guess I felt I was working so hard to get my life on track and I didn't feel like she cared about it.

I've spoken with my counselor regarding anger management and I generally try to take ten deep breaths, which helps to calm me down and to make me think about why I'm angry. That usually works. Also, I spend about 20 minutes a day "meditating" for lack of a better word. By meditating, I mean lying down in a dark or semi dark room and just relaxing with no tv, phone, or radio. That seems to bring about some more peaceful feelings as well.

You're definitely right about the history of broken promises and holding things over her head. When we got back together after she left the first time, I punished her for having had an affair. I stopped going to counseling and generally made her feel bad about what she had done. I refused to see how my actions had had an effect on her. I also made many promises to stop drinking and fell through on all of them. I think at some point, she'd had one to many broken promises and left and decided to move on.

I get what you are saying about not futurizing things so much. That's a big problem of mine I guess. I tend to look only to when we get back together (if we do) and not think much about what's going on now I guess. As for what I'm doing "today" to stay sober, I spend 90% of my nights with my parents at their home. They know about my addiction and have been glad to have me stay there. Now that the time has changed it will be a bit more difficult, but I also try to play with my dogs after work and get some exercise with them. I have found that my main temptation to drink comes in the late afternoon / early evening. Usually, if I can make it past 6:30 PM or so, the urge is gone for the most part. I try to fill that with positive activities.

As for working on me, I became a certified scuba diver, and took a hunter education course. I'm trying to get involved in some charity work such as habitat for humanity but I haven't done that yet.

I'm not sure how to demonstrate the "new me" though because we aren't really speaking right now.

She drinks some, but not to excess. There really isn't anyone else in either of our families that drinks much at all (that I am aware of).

I'm 33 and she is 28. I'm an attorney and she has a BS in Professional Biology but she currently works at a local community college. It was a first marriage for both of us. I think both sets of parents wish we'd just move on and not get back together. I know my parents feel this way, and I'm pretty sure hers do as well. My wife said she felt that, besides the alcoholism, that a big problem in our marriage was my selfishness. Also, I didn't work to have a good relationshp with her family and that was a problem for her. I think all of those reasons were valid and she is telling the truth when she says they were problems. I'm trying to work on being less selfish and i'm also trying to rebuild my relationship with my family. I still tend to be selfish but I'm trying to work on it. This morning though I caught myself being selfish again because a friend had a hurt hip and I forgot to ask about it and rather started talking about how I saw my wife on her way to work this morning so I still need lots of work there.

I've ready the divorce remedy book but not divorce busting. I will order it and give it a read.

Sandi2 -- So I guess no matter what, don't initiate contact? Just let her come to me so to speak? That is going to be really hard but today is 7 days since we've spoken last so I guess I have a fair start going. I saw her on my way to work this morning. She was driving to her work. I waved but she didn't look my direction and I don't think she saw me. I thought that was maybe going to be a good opportunity to start a conversation. I will say that, when I sent her the Happy Halloween text, she responded back almost immediately so I saw that as a good sign.

[edgarb]

One more thing, and I'm guessing I know the answer. Her birthday is coming up on Nov. 29, and I would assume the no contact rule would still be in effect? No present either?

[sandi2]

Her birthday is coming up on Nov. 29, and I would assume the no contact rule would still be in effect? No present either?

If she contacts you by email or TM, you could reply to any questions she has, but keep it short and do not try to extend the conversation hoping she'll talk to you. It's kind of like trying to woo a wild animal or bird. You have to start off with very little food (attention), and get them to "want" to come to you.

My suggestion about the birthday is to get her a pretty card (but nothing mushy or about how much you love her, etc.). If you don't have her address, then you may have to send an on line card or some other alternative. I would not totally ignore the birthday, but don't send anything to her place of employment! Don't ask to take her out. Just a card would be okay under these circumstances.

She will thank you for the card, so just be casual and don't try to pull more talk from her. Let her lead with the conversation and you just keep it simple. Then, pull back again. You have to pull back in order to let her see you are not pursuing.

Don't let the pulling back scare you.

[edgarb]

Ok, thanks for the advice! A card it is. It is so hard at the moment because she has pretty much pulled back as far as she can go. It's hard to keep faith that this will work if you know what I mean. I'm doing my part over here by working on sobriety and trying my best to GAL. I can't really do any 180s since we aren't talking. Perhaps not texting her at all is kind of a 180. I know she really likes this other guy so it makes it difficult to not say anything, you know? At the rate they seem to be going, I'm worried they will get engaged or something. However, this is kind of what she did last time, getting really serious really quick after we split up so maybe it's more of the same. Thanks again, and I will try to hold back on my part.

[edgarb]

Sorry to keep bombarding you guys with questions, but I have another (hopefully) quick one.

As far as the birthday card idea...the birthday right before my wife and I got married she gave me a card that had two dogs on the outside and on the inside says, simply, "Bada Bing...Bada Boom...Bada Birthday!" I still have it.

We always made jokes about that card and would say that phrase to each other every time we had a birthday. Well, I found a place that sells them online. I thought I might order that card and send it to her for her birthday. I'm not going to write anything mushy on the inside or anything, just "Happy Birthday!" and let that be it. I was thinking maybe that particular card would be a way to kind of make her smile. Is that too much? It isn't a mushy card, but i guess the implications should be mushy. Anyway, as always, any help or advice is appreciated.

[25yearsmlc]

25yearsmlc -- Thank you so much for your post. It kind of puts things in perspective. I am not in any sort of formal recovery program.


What is it that you are resisting? Is this resistance apparent anywhere else in your life?

Do you accept that the statistical likelikhood of recovery and staying sober is much higher in a program than for those not in one?

Recovering is already hard enough. Why not arm yourself with the full arsenal?



I have a counselor who I see about every 10-14 days depending on schedules. He is of course aware of the problems I am having and after speaking with him we decided to use kind of a custom program rather than me attending AA or entering a live in treatment facility. He has experience in the treatment of alcoholism.


Since I've been in a program (&coincidentally am also a L) I'm stunned that you can get by with sessions every 2 weeks...Not arguing so much as cautioning you b/c

I did the 90 meetings for 90 days and I have to tell you, I'm damn glad I did...

I also had an MD addiction specialist I saw 1-2 weekly AND a great t, and I attended groups...I also asked to have random urinanalysis so I'd stay extra motivated...

I mean, I did all I could do to make sure I did NOT relapse. Too much at stake.


As for the refusal to allow her to see the dogs, I guess deep down I have to admit that was an attempt at manipulating her. I tried to say I was doing it for myself because no contact with her was the only way to get over her. However, if I am honest, i must say that I hoped that would be a sort of shock to her and make her realize what she would be losing if we were no longer together. I believe all this, AND I believe a part of you wanted to punish her under the guise of "Shocking" her or teaching her a lesson. It's common.


The next day, I spoke with my counselor and we decided that I had promised her I would always let her see them and I should not break that promise. Therefore, I sent her a text the next day saying that after thinking things over, anytime she wanted to see our dogs she should let me know and I would arrange for it to happen. She has not seen them or asked about them since that date with one exception. On Halloween, I sent her a "Happy Halloween" text and told her the dogs were doing good. She said that she wondered about them every day and had been missing them.

that's valuable information.

Have you made it clear she can get them on a day you are gone? OR can you ask her to watch them sometime for you? Why do YOU have them anyhow?

I'm sorry but I don't recall if you said your c is a DB type or not. IS he familiar with MWDs approach? A lot of good t's and c's are not.


I reiterated that she could see them any time she liked. I've tried not to tie seeing them to seeing me. Nonetheless, she has not asked to see them or asked about them since last week. I was sober when I did it, but I was angry with her. I was angry just because I guess I felt I was working so hard to get my life on track and I didn't feel like she cared about it.

this is more of the same old stuff you've done so much of in the past.
NOT helpful to you.

Technically you are divorced now, right? Didn't you refuse to remarry b/c you were angry about something she had done while you were separated??

So, can you see that ANGER is a big problem for YOU?
I mean, talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face...


I've spoken with my counselor regarding anger management and I generally try to take ten deep breaths, which helps to calm me down and to make me think about why I'm angry. That usually works. Also, I spend about 20 minutes a day "meditating" for lack of a better word. By meditating, I mean lying down in a dark or semi dark room and just relaxing with no tv, phone, or radio. That seems to bring about some more peaceful feelings as well.

Hey, I say "whatever works"...but I would also think some cognitive work would greatly assist you in SEEING it before it happens and then figuring out how UNhelpful and destructive it is in your life. The more you face that, the less likely you are to repeat it, imo.

I'm guessing that when angry, sober or not, you've also said some deeply hurtful things. It's easy to forget them when you are drinking though I'm convinced that's also a self serving "benefit' of using/drinking...we like to get fuzzy when it comes to us being goofy jerks or mean.


You're definitely right about the history of broken promises and holding things over her head. When we got back together after she left the first time, I punished her for having had an affair.

Yet you behaved similarly with OW, right? I mean you texted even when you were with your w, correct? Can you see how much of this has been sort of structured and built by you?

I don't want to beat you up about it, okay? Just want to be clear that 42 days or 45 days now, Of not drinking and seeing a c every 1-2 weeks...would not get me to look twice.

Sorry EG, but if I were your w, I'd want to KNOW that THIS TIME IS DIFFERENT...and what is different now than before? I mean, you saw a c before, right?
For me, that symbol alone, of going to meetings, would make a difference that I'd want her to see.



I stopped going to counseling and generally made her feel bad about what she had done. I refused to see how my actions had had an effect on her. I also made many promises to stop drinking and fell through on all of them. I think at some point, she'd had one to many broken promises and left and decided to move on.

Makes sense...


I get what you are saying about not futurizing things so much. That's a big problem of mine I guess.

I tend to look only to when we get back together (if we do) and not think much about what's going on now I guess.

SO think about that...b/c it means that tomorrow, when you look back on today, your "yesterdays" will be pretty empty. See my point?

You spend today thinking about tomorrow, so when tomorrow comes, you have nothing to show for your yesterday...

In AA/NA there is a reason for their focus on "BEing HERE NOW" and living in the moment.

Aside from how hard it is to say "I will NEVER have another drink EVER" and mean it, (b/c it's a lot easier to say "today, I won't drink")

it's also about living life in general. 12 step programs, even if you are not a religious person, have value in the way they approach life.

They take life on life's terms. As it comes...not tomorrow or "someday when x happens"...and there is so much integrity in people who are in recovery once they've been in a year or so. They're more honest, more kind, more calm, more genuine, more reliable, imo. If those are valuable traits you want to work on, you may revisit the idea of meetings or some type of program? I know I'm nagging but til you tell me what you are resisting about it, I'll probably do it again, at least once or twice more...(so you know )


As for what I'm doing "today" to stay sober, I spend 90% of my nights with my parents at their home.

^^^ this won't be forever...so you WILL have to take steps to figure out alternative activities for that time of the night/day. You get that, right?

They know about my addiction and have been glad to have me stay there. Now that the time has changed it will be a bit more difficult, but I also try to play with my dogs after work and get some exercise with them. I have found that my main temptation to drink comes in the late afternoon / early evening. Usually, if I can make it past 6:30 PM or so, the urge is gone for the most part. I try to fill that with positive activities.

As for working on me, I became a certified scuba diver, and took a hunter education course. I'm trying to get involved in some charity work such as habitat for humanity but I haven't done that yet.

Those are not so much "your work on you" (by which I meant the anger & forgiveness work) so much as good GAL things, in general.

SCUBA diving is great -the physical part is excellent and a bit of a rush...good! Hunter education--cool...intense. Not sure how much socializing you'll do in either, but they are physical and seems to me,

and this is just MY OPINION..

GAL Has to do one of at least 2 things--
if it was PHYSICAL, it helped my body, my body image, the endorphins and the whole self image- and working out, ALL were useful and healthy...GOOD STUFF...

but for the social aspects and the loneliness...GAL activities involving other people were KEY.

I auditioned for community theater & did stand up comedy (later on I went back for an MFA believe it or not. The whole GAL triggered a lot of growth for me, so, who knew?)

Anyhow, also volunteered, and Habitat's great too. Is it seasonal?

You may do something pro bono in a woman's shelter if you think about it. You do NOT have to do Legal work but you can.

And regardless, they always want help. Same with Goodwill, Big Brothers, Boy Scouts, etc. And Coaching a team...ALL of which gets you outdoors, many are physical, and they get you meeting new people who do NOT know your w or your situation and none of the things I mentioned here would offer you a beer.


I'm not sure how to demonstrate the "new me" though because we aren't really speaking right now.


That's okay. It's easier to make the changes while she is NOT around b/c day to day exposure lessens the noticeablility of the changes. Same as when people live together and don't notice the changes that someone who hasn't seen you in a month would.

She drinks some, but not to excess. There really isn't anyone else in either of our families that drinks much at all (that I am aware of).

I'm 33 and she is 28. I'm an attorney and she has a BS in Professional Biology but she currently works at a local community college.

why do you say "but she works at..."? Like it's a surprise or less than expected...not sure if anything was implied there or not.

How is your work going? Are you a fulfilled lawyer? Are you at a firm? Are you on the partnership track, or can you get a staff position?

It was a first marriage for both of us. I think both sets of parents wish we'd just move on and not get back together. I know my parents feel this way, and I'm pretty sure hers do as well.

YOUR parents feel that way, why? Do you think being sober for a year will assist them in seeing the M as a possible avenue for you, being sober AND married?
You have had this drinking problem off and on since you were a teenager?

When you are a High functioning alcoholic it delays people realizing the depth of the problem, and enables us to lie to ourselves as well. After all, at some of those 12 step meetings, we'll see "real losers"...and we'll tell ourselves that "WE are not like THEM!"

So therefore we don''t need to be there...after all, we still have jobs or marriages or our driver's licenses...and truth be told--until we lose all that, most of us won't admit we have a problem.


My wife said she felt that, besides the alcoholism, that a big problem in our marriage was my selfishness. Also, I didn't work to have a good relationshp with her family and that was a problem for her.


surely you must have wished the relationships with her family were better for YOU too, right? I mean you say it was a "problem for her" but you mean, for you both, right? And how'd you feel about the selfishness on your end?


I think all of those reasons were valid and she is telling the truth when she says they were problems.

Well yes...


I'm trying to work on being less selfish and i'm also trying to rebuild my relationship with my family.

Those ARE achievable goals, you know. AND btw, how is your family doing with all this? Are they glad you are sober? Do they resist 12 step programs too?

(I'm not getting a commission for AA/NA, I'm just curious that someone wanting to get sober would make it so much harder on themselves! )

I still tend to be selfish but I'm trying to work on it. This morning though I caught myself being selfish again because a friend had a hurt hip and I forgot to ask about it and rather started talking about how I saw my wife on her way to work this morning so I still need lots of work there.

Good insight. And small consistent changes are the path to real change. Sure, we have to do SOME 180s
but mostly it's the small things, over time, that make us who we are.

I've ready the divorce remedy book but not divorce busting. I will order it and give it a read.

Yeah I found the Div Rem a little better (I think it's the 2nd edition of DB really) but Div Busting has more stats on why divorce is bad news. I felt like I already knew that but still, it did motivate me.

And then I read the Div Remedy book and that really helped me solidify the changes I wanted to make. In sum, I read them both and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you could only read ONE, I'd say to do the Div Remedy one...and btw, a lot of people just don't like reading much so it's a big deal to them to decide which ONE they'll read.

Sandi2 -- So I guess no matter what, don't initiate contact? Just let her come to me so to speak? That is going to be really hard but today is 7 days since we've spoken last so I guess I have a fair start going. I saw her on my way to work this morning. She was driving to her work. I waved but she didn't look my direction and I don't think she saw me. I thought that was maybe going to be a good opportunity to start a conversation.

the waving is a good way to start a conversation, or what?

I will say that, when I sent her the Happy Halloween text, she responded back almost immediately so I saw that as a good sign.

Yes I agree. And the birthday card can be simple, thoughtful is fine.
Just not = pursuit...

I rather like the card you mention that means something out of your past. As long as the words are not too heavy it still shows thought and history.

and her new R doesn't sound like something to worry about long term. I mean, the speed with which she entered it makes it clearly a rebound R...

so you need to step back and let it run its' course while YOU work on improving yourself

((( )))

[edgarb]

25yearsmlc -- Thanks again for the post. I had to print it out to make sure I answer it all. Plus, I'd like to have it to refer back to from time to time. Ok, here goes...

I guess the main thing that I am resisting regarding a formal recovery program is the fact that I don't feel like it would be very anonymous. I'm an attorney in a pretty small town with several clients in AA/NA and fear that it would hurt my professional reputation were I to attend meetings. I understand that there is a greater likelihood of staying sober in a more formal program. I've done pretty well so far though, minus a few setbacks in the beginning. I see my counselor tomorrow morning and will discuss this with him again.

As for the dogs, you're right that I wanted to punish her under the guise of Shocking her or teaching her some sort of a lesson. I wish that I had not done that. However, after speakign to my C we said that since I had promised she could see them any time she wanted that should stand. So I texted her back and told her she could see them. I didn't specifically say that I wouldn't be there, but that's fine with me. When we spoke on Halloween I reminded her that she could see the dogs whenever she liked. I have them because she says she felt it was best for me to keep them and they would help me through all of this. While that's true, it's also true that she has two other dogs and she took those. The first, Twister, she got when she left me the first time. The second, Stormy, she got when she left the second time. Incidentally, the man she got Stormy from is the man she's dating now. Twister and Stormy are both pit bulls. She's very into showing and training pit bulls and so is the new guy. I kind of feel like she knew she wouldn't have time for the two I have so she just left them with me. It's a lot of work to get a dog ready for a show and fall is prime dog show season.

My C is a DB type. He's the one who turned me on to MWD and recommended the DIV REM book.

I see what you are saying about the anger being a big problem. I let my anger at her having an affair keep us from getting back together. In going back and rereading the chapter on infidelity in DR, I see now how wrong I was and that she needed me to comfort her as much as I needed comfort as well. Not much I can do about that at the present moment I guess.

I've said some very hurtful things when i'm angry. That's been a big problem for me in the past. I wanted things done my way (selfishness) and got angry when it didn't occur that way. I also knwo what you are saying about getting fuzzy about me being a jerk. I (like all of us I guess) have a tendency to remember myself as being the "good" one and forgetting all the times that I acted like a hurtful jerk. Of course, she remembers all of those times, I'm sure.

And yes, I did behave just like her with the OW. I never should have been texting OW. I'd give anything if I hadn't done that. I don't know how to repair that damage now though?

I certainly need to be more honest, kind, calm, genuine and reliable. Do you think that by being in a 12 step program I can better accomplish those goals? I will speak to my C about it once more.

I think that's a good idea to get some GAL activities that involve people. I'm hoping the Habitat can do that. I like the community theater idea as well but I'm certainly no actor. Maybe I could do something behind the scenes?

I said "but she works at..." because that's the way she sees it. She once worked at our vet's office and she was happy there. She constantly said she wanted to make more money and so I helped her to get the job at the community college. She hated it from the beginning and felt that I pressured her into taking it. There is probably some truth to that.

My work is going ok but I don't know that I'm "fulfilled". I'm really starting to dislike the practice of law through all of this. I'm successful at it and have a good client base and am on the partnership track at my firm. I really couldn't ask for much more, but something seems to be missing. I guess typing it out makes me realize what I've internalized for some time and maybe I will speak to my C about that as well.

My parents wish I'd just quit wanting to get back together with my wife. My mom says "If she wanted to talk to you , she would" and to just get over it and move on. I think they are just tired of seeing me hurt so much. My W's mother probably feels the same way. She dislikes me at the moment or at least she did over the dog thing. My W has told me in the past that her family would think she was crazy if we got back together.

I wish I had worked on a relationship with her family but I did not and it didn't concern me at the time. I know now that was wrong and her family are nice people and I should have done more to have a relationship with them. My W didn't do much to have a relationship with my parents either.

I guess I thought if she had seen me on her way to work the other day she might have started to miss me and then would text me as a result. That is crazy I guess.

I'm still not sure I got to everything in your post, but hopefully I got to most everything. Thanks again so much for your advice and insight. I like how on this site it seems that posts and responses are ready when I get up in the morning lol. it really gives me something to look forward to and starts my day out on a positive note. Thanks!

[Danl]

Hi ed,
you might discuss with your c private therapy geared on an unbiased view of the human being, that is, not a person with chronic relapsing brain disease; rather, a person responsible for their their behavior and fully capable of meeting the challenge(s) presented by habitual substance abuse.

In order to successfully personalize your own health care in terms of 'alcoholism' a guy needs to be a consumer.. just like with other health care.. a person tries to find the right doc and right tx, cost and so on..

same with substance abuse 'treatment'.. a counselor/therapist, at best, is a reliably educated and vested consultant..

25 gave you a good thought with the CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) that is also confrontational.. but not so constrained as the disease --all or nothing-- proposition wherein denying a label, e.g. "alcoholic" is denial..

and you might ask about ME (motivational enhancement) therapies, that more strongly delineate against a biased view of the substance abuser (a person with a disease)..

in the end tho, just like common sense would tell ya, if a guy really wants to end a destructive behavior, he'll use most every/and everything toward that end.. if not.. it's moot, and nothing 'works'

[25yearsmlc]

before I read any further, I TOTALLY understand your concerns about the legal and professional aspects....trust me, I GET IT.

One of my many fears was running into "clients" there...how nice...

BUT there are programs specifically FOR LAWYERS in every state. Check the nearest city but look it up online or in your state bar magazine, which is a page I turned to in a dark hour that seemed to speak to me. That was my biggest Godsend, probably. In Texas it was something like "TLC" which meant something like Texas Lawyers Concerned or whatever, but in your bar magazine there will be an ad, (or 62, we're a troubled lot), about help for impaired lawyers.

I found them SO helpful.

Later, I attended a "regular" meeting in the community when I felt I had enough time clean and sober just not to care who knew anymore. Sure enough, I saw a lawyer whom I had worked with a few years earlier, so that was weird. But HE had every reason to fear me as much as I did him...except

LATER He called me to get a phone number of my "cute" sponsor! Um, hi, remember the part about NOT having that type of contact and being anonymous AND why not ask her yourself and not ask ME to break my word??...sheesh... So, I hear you.

Just saying there are other avenues for programs that really are safe. Check with your state's bar...

[edgarb]

You know, we have something called the Lawyers Assistance Program here in Alabama. I will look into that. Strangely enough, today of all days has been a strange one as far as sobriety is concerned. I've had drinking on the brain all day today. Not sure why and I'm glad to be seeing my counselor early in the morning as that kind of helps with holding firm with "I'm not going to drink today." It may seem strange, but a common drinking activity of mine was playing xbox with friends online. Today they've been emailing back and forth about a new game that came out and how much fun they're having playing it. Of course, I could play it sober, but probably best to let it be at this point. Thanks for the idea about the lawyer specific programs. That never really even occurred to me.