Will try to make this short, but it probably won't be.
I met a Turkish man (dual Turkish/U.S. citizen) 4 years ago when I was reeling from my ex-husband getting remarried and was in a lonely, desperate, vulnerable state of mind. We were in a "friends with benefits" situation when felt good at the time, but I unfortunately got pregnant 3 months into this relationship which he he didn't plan on being permanent. We both were shaken up by the pregnancy, and I wasn't willing to abort, but we pretty much continued our relationship till the middle of my pregnancy when I pushed him for a commitment and he disappeared till the baby was born, at which point, we entered into a "strictly co-parenting" relationship.
Just lately, I grew tired of being in "limbo" and at 45, I don't want to be single and celibate for the rest of my life. My therapist advised me to date, and I did, and it was a bit of a disaster, but on the other hand shook things up a little. Neither of us wants the other to date and we want as much stability as possible for our child. But I want to be part of a "couple".
We agreed to each not date anyone else, and to identify ourselves as being a "couple" and to try to cultivate "feelings" for each other. I think he cares for me and he is good to me and has been committed to me for all this time, but I want love, romance, and sex. For a long time I thought I should only have sex within the context of a legally recognized marriage, but since that is probably not going to happen soon, if ever, I have decided that this is a "situational ethics dilemma" and the right and most loving thing to do is to be sexually open to hopefully encourage loving feelings which would benefit the family unit. I have no guilt and only the slightest doubt about it being "okay with God" for us to have sex. It isn't the ideal situation, but the Bible says that to avoid fornication, everyone who has strong sexual desire should marry, but in my case, a "normal" marriage isn't possible. But we ARE committed and monogamous, and although other Christians may not agree with this, I do feel married "in God's eyes" and I am as devoted as I would be if we were legally married.
Everything came to a head 3 weeks ago when we decided to work on things. I am using The Divorce Remedy and a therapist, and I have just got The Sex Starved Wifeand I am about to do the "Last Resort Technique". I have been pursuing too much and these last 3 weeks I have had mixed results. He actually let me kiss him for the first time in almost 3 years and HE is the one that took it further, and for a few moments, I felt like I had him "back". But last night, for the first time in 3 1/2 years I insisted that he spend 20 minutes alone (in public) with me. I wanted quality time, but he acted like a caged animal. I don't know if he was waiting for me to bring up some unpleasant topic of discussion or what.
We both have intimacy issues, but for 7 1/2 months we had a special bond. I want that back.
I am frustrated that he says he has no "feelings" and says we can't control whether we have "feelings" or not. I told him Michele's story about how we can push buttons that trigger negative feelings almost instantly, and we can also trigger the positive ones if we know what the buttons are. I am pretty clueless as to what/where his "positive feelings buttons" are.
I don't like feeling that I'm trapped in a loveless relationship because I chose to mother our "surprise" child. I am frustrated but I am not ready to give up.
He has made 3 big steps...he has gotten better at eye contact with me and he has "renamed" our relationship (too bad it is only in name only at this point, but before he wasn't open to the idea at all), and he has opened up to some physical contact (one time).
I am working at setting up more goals and I am keeping a journal.
I would like for him to pursue me a little, but of course, he can't when I'm pursuing him. He knows exactly what I want and need.
My therapist thinks since at one point me had a mutually satisfying relationship, we can do it again, we just need to make a "contract" with each other. That is what we had at first, I agreed to not expect anything long term, no commitment beyond monogamy for as long as he wanted me. He gave me attention, affection, companionship. I felt that he loved me "enough".
It was a huge shift for me to agree to sex without legal marriage, it was a huge shift for him to agree to think of this as a long-term relationship and to open himself up to things he had been resisting--such as a "date" with me and him without the child, affection, and sex.
I have said since my ex-husband remarried that I'd like to be a "part time wife and full time mother" and marry, but be legally separated (so neither of us could remarry and would officially still be husband and wife) and have my own house as long as my 2 older kids are at home (about 6 more years). I envisioned having one weeknight date and one overnight visit with my part-time husband, like my current man and I had at the most satisfying part of our relationship. Just lately I decided that I could achieve the same end result with less hassle and expense and probably stress by avoiding any LEGAL entanglements. I know legal entanglements are scary for men.
I just want things to be like they were when I felt like he loved me "enough". He spent lots of quality time with me. He called me almost every day between visits. He made it obvious how much he enjoyed my company. He told me I was pretty and he enjoyed being physical with me. He smiled and laughed with me a lot. We had fun together. He still does nice things for me (not romantic, like flowers and nice dates, but he bought tires for my car and contributes financially beyond his obligation). We have dinner as a family at least once a week. We usually have a pretty good time.Before, there was the constant stress of thinking he was going to dump me as soon as something better came along. Now there is the stress that although I feel he will always "be there" for me and my daughter, it is out of obligation, not out of desire. I want the desire back.
Welcome to divorcebusting.com! I only have a few minutes, but I want to respond to you.
You definitely have an interesting situation--only YOU can determine what works for you, what you can and can't live with.
So, you've found that you've tried a few things, and have had mixed results, some positive, some not as positive as you want.
What we learn in DB is that it helps to make CLEAR GOALS:
1) action oriented 2) positively stated 3) achievable within 2 weeks 4) things HE will do or you BOTH will be doing together (this is not 'I will do this')
THEN you set the things you want to try, and see if those actions achieve your goals.
So, look at 'goal setting' in your DR book, and list 2-3 goals here. I'll check back in a couple of days.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
He will touch me in some positive way besides a casual hug (which I got from him last night). I am looking for a kiss or something tender.
He will call me on a Sunday or Wednesday. Those are the only 2 days we don't see each other.
We will watch a movie or T.V. show together.
I wish I knew EXACTLY how to trigger his positive feelings.
Dating other people was a 180 and triggered the first change, but my therapist said I jumped too quickly "back into the box" he had me in. So, I guess distancing is appropriate, although I will not be dating anyone else.
Pursuing behaviors I need to stop are -saying "I love you" -pointing out the good (and remember when...?) -asking for reassurances (and asking questions about his feelings/the relationship in general) -trying to schedule dates together.
Taking a deep breath, praying, and crossing my fingers that I'll be strong and this will have the desired effect.
I woke up this morning feeling pretty discouraged, Bonnie Raitt's song "I Can't Make You Love Me" is ringing in my ears. I'm 45, I always wanted to have someone to love and be loved by and grow old with. He cares about me, but doesn't "LOVE" me.
we ARE committed and monogamous, and although other Christians may not agree with this, I do feel married "in God's eyes" and I am as devoted as I would be if we were legally married.
Quote:
He actually let me kiss him for the first time in almost 3 years and HE is the one that took it further, and for a few moments, I felt like I had him "back". But last night, for the first time in 3 1/2 years I insisted that he spend 20 minutes alone (in public) with me. I wanted quality time, but he acted like a caged animal.
Quote:
He has made 3 big steps...he has gotten better at eye contact with me and he has "renamed" our relationship (too bad it is only in name only at this point, but before he wasn't open to the idea at all), and he has opened up to some physical contact (one time).
Quote:
It was a huge shift for me to agree to sex without legal marriage, it was a huge shift for him to agree to think of this as a long-term relationship and to open himself up to things he had been resisting--such as a "date" with me and him without the child, affection, and sex.
Ummm...so let me get this straight. He objected to you dating another guy, BUT he's not dating you, sleeping with you, or otherwise wooing you himself?
I think you have to ask yourself - what is it about YOU that you would be willing to work so hard for such crumbs from this guy?
Don't you feel you deserve a guy who is really into you and wants to be with you?
I don't think that after three years, the odds of him suddenly stepping up to the plate romantically are very good.
This may be a good time to work on you, and figure out your dysfunctional patterns when it comes to dating. (I speak as someone who is prone to relationships where I am the pursuer myself - perhaps rooted in some childhood insecurities about my worth, as well as the loss of my father when I was a teen. I am drawn to the guys who are difficult to win over - then surprised when they aren't as into me as I am to them! My best friend often finds herself in relationships with guys who are married or otherwise involved - in her case, re-enacting the "loss" of her dad to marriage to her step-mother and trying to win that competition.)
Also - just a thought - if he has dual citizenship, is there any possibility that he has a wife back in Turkey?
I understand that the first few months of your relationship felt good and you really want to recreate that - but honestly, if he was the kind of guy who was capable of that relationship for the long haul, his behavior in the intervening years would have been different. Instead, he's acted exactly like a guy who meant what he said in the beginning - that he didn't want a committed relationship with you, he just wanted to have fun. When guys say things like that, BELIEVE THEM!
I think it is entirely reasonable to tell him, that you appreciate his co-parenting and friendship, but that you have needs and if he isn't interested in fulfilling those needs, you are planning to start dating again. End of story.
When we "started over" 3 weeks ago, he said he didn't have feelings for me but he would give it a chance. I said, "I can't make you love me" and he said, "How do you know?" and said he has had feelings for me off and on over the years, but before they can develop, I do something to make him mad, and they go away.
He said he could see us in a long-term relationship after all, and can identify us as a "couple" rather than simply in a "co-parenting" relationship. He said he thought he could give affection and even have sex at some point.
He HAS been committed to me for these years,even though it hasn't been a legal marriage.
I get sad and think about how I want to be with someone who LOVES me, but there are many good things about this relationship I am in now with this good man, and if I left it to start a relationship with a new man, there is no guarantee that he would love me forever.
How important is it to me for a man to love me if he is doing so many other good things?
And really, he DOES "care about" me. He has never been "in love" or in a really meaningful relationship. He has had a couple of "crushes" on women who were not available. His longest "relationship" was 4 months and he has always run away from women who wanted to "get serious". He has only started relationships with women he would not consider marrying. This relationship we are in is probably the most meaningful and long lasting that he'll ever have.
Many women would not tolerate being in a relationship with a man who "can't love". I wouldn't if not for the child. I hate thinking that we're only together because of the child, but is that really a bad thing?
Now that he has acknowledged that we are "a couple" and are "long term", it has given me a sense of security.
I'm still going to do the last resort and see what happens. He has got to have some kind of feelings for me, if only I can bring them out. They were there before. It is not like he never found me attractive, enjoyed my company, or had "feelings".
I'm not sure that the last resort is appropriate, then. If you have agreed you are a "couple", though, why is he so weird about being alone with you in public for 20 minutes? I would think that being a "couple" would, at a bare minimum, include dating. I think I would set a once-a-week date as the minimum requirement for him getting to consider you a "couple".
As for him getting feelings for you - he sounds like he has some really serious issues if he's gotten to this age with no relationships longer than 4 months. Do you have any inkling what those might be? Is he willing to go to counseling to figure that out?
I recommend you read the Five Love Languages book. Meanwhile, try to just drop the rope- no pursuing, go happily about your business, be busy with friends and activities.
No chance of a wife in Turkey. He's been here for 16 or 17 years and hasn't been to Turkey at all in 6.
The thing is that I got really upset when he said if I was going to date, he would too. He was celibate as long as I was and apparently would continue. I REALLY have a huge issue with my kids having stepfamilies. I went on one coffee date 2 years ago and really freaked out...I kept thinking that guy should go back to his wife and I felt like I should be with the father of my child. Almost 2 years later, I got a little farther dating another man, but when the new guy wanted to get physical, I freaked out thinking nobody should be touching me but the father of my child.
I don't think I'll ever have an ideal relationship with this guy, but he is a very good man, I like him, we get along.
I'm afraid that "The devil I know is better than the devil I don't" and "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" and I have a good, honest, reliable man in my life who is a devoted father and is friendly to me. I have gotten to know him well and become very comfortable with him over the past 4 years. I have no guarantee that any new man might love me forever. Without that guarantee, I feel like I'd just best stay where I am and try to change the relationship for the better. I haven't "tried everything" yet.
He HAS become more affectionate, so I think that is a step in the right direction.
I have absolutely no desire at this point to start dating again. It is very scary and stressful.
to kml I know I need to stop pursuing him and give him a chance to get in touch with his feelings. Maybe the "last resort" isn't exactly what I'm doing, but I am definitely going to stop pursuit.
I have NO idea why he stressed out so much. Unless it is because he was expecting me to get him into a difficult conversation. He takes us out to eat and we have spent lots of time in public together as a family ever since the baby was born (3 yrs)
A "once a week date" is one of my goals. I think there will be baby steps to get to that point, though. Or maybe after this last time, he will realize that all I want is for us to have each other's undivided attention (the baby is a contstant distraction) and enjoy each other's company. Michele says spending time together is so crucial.
I am not sure, but I think his issues may have something to do with him losing his arm at age 4. I knew when I first met him, and before we got involved romantically that he had serious issues and I read "Men Who Can't Love" and shared it with him. He has gotten some counseling in the past, but he said it didn't help.
Yes, I have the Five Love Languages book. I am not sure what his love language is. I know what my main ones are, and he's not speaking my language(s)(#1 words of affirmation-like telling me I'm pretty, he cares for me, etc. But he has no problem telling me I'm a good Mom.#2 Quality Time-time ALONE with him. #3Physical Touch-which I get sometimes, but usually I initiate it and it isn't very intimate, though I think this might be turning around)I try to speak ALL languages with him. I constantly tell him how much I admire and appreciate him and how important he is, I give him gifts and do things for him whenever I get the opportunity. I touch him often and I spend as much time as possible with him and it is almost always pleasant (but always as a "family", not as a "couple".
No word from him yesterday (Monday) or day before. On Saturday we had a bit of a discussion. I complained about him letting our daughter get too sleepy--going to bed at midnight on her overnight with him. He complained about me letting her get too hungry. I told him I was going to stop pursuing him and I'm sorry he was so uncomfortable when I forced him to spend 20 minutes with me Friday night. I asked if we were "good" and he said "yes". I told him I wasn't going to pull out of the relationship, but was going to jut stop pursuing. I told him that on Monday if he wants to see us (he has been taking us out to supper), he needs to call me around mid-day or lunch or whatever. Sometimes he just decides to skip and doesn't let us know, and I feel annoyed because I could have made other plans. Last week I called him around 4 saying I'm just confirming that he didn't have plans to see us, and he said, no, he wanted to meet us. I told him since I hadn't heard anything, I thought he wanted to skip. I think I ended up meeting him anyway.
It is not unusual for him to not call. We almost never talk on the phone unless he is making some scheduling arrangements or something, or unless I have called HIM. Usually, I try to check in or let him know what our day is like, or if our daughter does or says something cute or noteworthy.
I did not call him Sunday. I did not call him Monday. I did feel the urge to send him a text (She was saying last night that she wanted to see you), but I didn't push "send", I saved it as a draft. No word at all on Monday.
I will see him tonight around 8 when I pick up our daughter for the night (she has preschool, he picks her up and spends a couple of hours with her and feeds her supper on Tues and Thurs).
I plan on looking nice and being "bubbly". I will probably see him just for 3 or 4 minutes as we are doing the exchange. I will smile and be happy.
I need to practice being "mysterious". I am way too open and honest and my therapist says I need to make him wonder sometimes. Let him ask me questions and be evasive (as he is). He did ask me a couple of weeks ago if I was still in contact with other men.
I am in dire financial straits and went today to seek help to pay my electric bill. I wish so much I had the money for the KLA, but I think I'll tag along on the online group if they'll let me.
