Classic textbook WAW situation... just still waiting for the actual walking away... I know she has the "it's time for the next step" letter on her night stand and is waiting for the opportune time to present it to me (she doesn't know that I know it's there)... it was on my night stand last night (she doesn't know that I know she put it there - I ignored it), and then she must have had 2nd thoughts. Anyway, my burning question is; if she's the one walking away, what if her expectation is that I'm the one who moves out? Is it unreasonable for me, while keeping the 4 Cs in mind, to expect her to be the one who moves? Which leads to the next questions... if she says, you're right, and the kids will come with her (17-D, 15-S, 11-D), should that be acceptable? Finally, since I know about the letter, would the ultimate 180 be to compassionately tell her I've been doing a lot of thinking and we don't seem to be making the progress she would like and perhaps she is right, we should try a separation, what can I do to help with your move? Sounds like a huge risk, the "after the last resort" technique… ANY HELP AND SUGGESTIONS APPRECIATED.
H (me): 43, W: 41 D17, S15, D11 T: 22 M: 20 in December 2011 ILYBNILWU: 8/11 LRT
Hey LR, Sorry you are here but you are in great company. Do you have another thread somewhere that could provide us with info. About your marriage - It's history, it's problems
Are you reading DB or implementing the 37 rules?
It's good to think about these things but don't stress yourself out by putting the cart before the horse.
What is about helping her move that would make it a complete 180 for you?
M(f): 43 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
V19 - I am totally new to posting... that was my first post:
married 20 years this Dec. and back on 8/20 I got the "i don't love you anymore" speech... out of nowhere (of course, after all the reading, etc., it shouldn't have appeared out of nowhere).
I'm the professional, she's been the stay-at-home mom. No abuse, did have an EA with co-worker and she claims that's not it (3 years ago), she said things got better for a short while after that ended, but then went down hill - not sure what she means by that, but otherwise, just a lazy husband and wife about our marriage. She wants nothing to do with counseling.
Reading DR-7 steps, but not familiar with the 37 rules... did I miss those somewhere?
Really started off very deparate until I got Michele's book and got to the "last resort" technique...
the 180 would be me inviting her to move - letting her know that I acknoowledge her needs and being a friend to help her move instead of me being the one that has to move... and doing that before she has a bad day and hits me with the it's time to take the next step letter
Folks...the note is on my night stand again tonight. Realizing I need to confront the reality of likely separation, I still need some help in answering the questions about who should move and about the kids...feeling desparate. Thx for any and all opinions.
Cadet gave good advice. I agree. Here's your list of 37.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Cadet has given you some great advice. To add to what he said, there is a book out there written by a law firm that specializes in divorce for men. The #1 mistake men make when facing D, is moving out.
Me:45 ExW:48 M:04/97 3 Bombs & 2 ReCons 1st BD 11/10 D Finalized 4/20 D-16 S-14 Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
Wait a minute here. YOU had an affair 3 years ago, and you think it has nothing to do with the current situation? I doubt that very very much.
Once that betrayal has occurred, it is really difficult to get past it and move forward in a loving relationship. If the straying spouse tried for a little while to make it up to the betrayed spouse, then slipped back into old ways of not making the betrayed spouse feel special and valued.... eventually the betrayed spouse is gonna give up. Why keep living with that emotional pain, if the spouse who inflicted it on you isn't even trying to make it better???
Can you really say you've done everything you could to make it up to her?
Folks...the note is on my night stand again tonight. Realizing I need to confront the reality of likely separation, I still need some help in answering the questions about who should move and about the kids...feeling desparate. Thx for any and all opinions.
if she's a sahm then she's the primary caregiver for the kids?
then Assuming someone is going to move out (not saying someone should) but IF
then I'd guess the court won't make her AND the kids leave....which means you.
OR you both learn to live together under one roof pending the divorce. Both are unappealing scenarios.
But don't gloss over the effect of the EA of 3 years ago since she says that "for a short while" things improved after that...then went bad. Not a coincidence.
To me that means at best the complacency returned to you when she still needed more reassurance and motivation...or worse, her hurt, resentment and fears were not allayed by you and that is a corrosive trend.
In any event, she only recalls improvement then for "a short while" and not many marriages can handled an affair with "short term" efforts at rebuilding.
Plus, I'm not sure what YOU mean by EA. A woman might say "EA" to mean a bit of a crush but a man might mean everything but intercourse.
And if your w thought you loved the OW...ouch.
Don't mean to hit you with a 2 x 4 but you seem to want directness. Good luck
(( ))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Classic textbook WAW situation... just still waiting for the actual walking away... I know she has the "it's time for the next step" letter on her night stand and is waiting for the opportune time to present it to me (she doesn't know that I know it's there)... it was on my night stand last night (she doesn't know that I know she put it there - I ignored it), and then she must have had 2nd thoughts. Anyway, my burning question is; if she's the one walking away, what if her expectation is that I'm the one who moves out? Is it unreasonable for me, while keeping the 4 Cs in mind, to expect her to be the one who moves? Which leads to the next questions... if she says, you're right, and the kids will come with her (17-D, 15-S, 11-D), should that be acceptable? As a L, (&maybe as a woman too--so a bit of bias might be at play) NOT in the way you seem to be suggesting...
--if you go into court to decide who leaves, and the kids all want to be with her and you are gainfully employed/employable, and you two decide one of you has to leave the house...
the court will NOT look kindly at you for forcing your whole family out of the home b/c you don't want to leave... b/c saying "your honor, SHE'S the one who wants out"...is punitive sounding.
Your saying THEY should all rent an apartment somewhere while you wander around empty rooms? That ends up costing more actually...and you'll look like a jerk to them, imo.
And that makes it seem like you are why she wants out.
I know you say you want to save the m but what I'm hearing is you want to keep the house and property and cut her loose/teach her and THEM a lesson,and who needs whom... and I'm not hearing much about your work on YOUR end
What are YOUR 180s exactly? What are her SPECIFIC complaints?
Is there another thread of yours, b/c this one is pretty sparse on important details...like what your role is in this?
THe whole "generic mutual grew apart" thing isn't ringing true to me b/c all the kids want to stay with her AND she wants out despite the fears 99% of SAHM's have...I mean she must really want out.
If there's no OM, then what's up with you guys?
Dig deep, and be brave when you do.
Finally, since I know about the letter, would the ultimate 180 be to compassionately tell her I've been doing a lot of thinking and we don't seem to be making the progress she would like and perhaps she is right, we should try a separation, what can I do to help with your move? Sounds like a huge risk, the "after the last resort" technique… ANY HELP AND SUGGESTIONS APPRECIATED.
H (me): 43, W: 41 D17, S15, D11 T: 22 M: 20 in December 2011 ILYBNILWU: 8/11 LRT
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
