My take is the same which is, it appears you are playing a game of chess and expect to out play your W. While it is possible and it is up to you how you want to get to the end game, it is not a tactic used in DB. Understand that what you appear to be attempting IS manipulative. It comes from a place of (perceived) control.
There is no guarantee that DB will work for any sitch. The difference is, DB comes from a different place. DB comes from a perspective that the only thing, the only person we CAN control, is ourselves.
Further understand that if your W catches on to what you are doing, she may very well do her own set of 180s as it were and completely throw your game plan out the window.
Remember that she is saying and behaving in a way that very much indicates that she DOES NOT want to be with YOU, atm. Until she decides she does, she will do whatever it is she wants. Her statement that, you cannot control her.
I wish you the best if you continue on your plan. I really do wish everyone the best when they show up here, because it is showing that they do want to save their M, if possible.
In the end, we need to operate from a place of self. What can we learn about ourselves in relation to where our M is. What we could have done different so we did not find ourselves here. How can we be better. Because in the end, whether our M is saved or we end up D, any NEW relationship from this point forward will be determined by the work we do on ourselves and how that contributes to a loving and respectful R in the future.
Ok I think you guys are misunderstanding my approach a little.
I know it's supposed to be about me and GAL. I know it's hard to believe but I never stopped having one. I for the most part to everything I did while I was married and to be honest I do a little more now. As a person I am very happy with myself. My friends are waiting for me to crash or something because I am so upbeat and positive. Yes I have negative thoughts about the uncertainty of the future, but I know that is not under my control and must take whatever is handed to me. So I am accepting of it and ok with whatever the outcome as I will be fine. My friends seem to think I am in denial. I'm not I felt this way since 1 day before the bomb dropped. let me go back to my coming around. We had fight 2 nights before bomb. I laid in bed half the night thinking and for whatever reason a light bulb went on and I just laid there and cried. Not because she was going to hand me a D because I didn't know that at the time. I was so hurt inside because i could not believe how poorly I treated her for so long and how I wasn't the person I really am. I can't begin to explain the feeling of relief I had from realizing this and I knew I must for me rediscover myself. Which I have. The original me is very encouraging, supportive, upbeat and very unselfish in such a way I am willing to sacrifice my wants to fill others needs/wants.
As for being manipulative I'm not being that way all. I can't control what she does or doesn't do. I can only support and encourage her to be herself and do what she thinks makes her happy. When our relationship began it was all about her and her wants/needs. Nothing made me more happy in life than seeing her happy. I know it looks like I'm being a push over and such, but really that is the person I am and haven't been. Basically I did a 180 back to myself. This is why I am emotionally handling this as well as I am. The only thing I seem to have trouble with is if she has noticed the difference and if she has will she allow herself to think about if they are real or not.
As far as the chess game it appears I am playing goes. That isn't the case at all. Consider this. Everybody knows their spouse to some degree and if one thing happens the likelihood of them reacting will be consistent with some certain pattern that was in place. Consider this, we all are here to rediscover our old self and make some changes as well. The walk away spouse most likely isn't trying to change themselves, they are more interested in getting away from their perceived problems, us. Now based on several years of certain patterns I make assessments on the likelihood of her reactions to how I treat things. I have no expectations they are just things based on those patterns I believe will happen. I'm not doing something to get a certain reaction from here. I am doing them because I want to. The only motivation I have to do these things is because it is what makes me happy about me. If she reacts differently from the pattern I am okay with that as well. I just have to be me.
Well defended, my friend. Sounds like you really understand your motives and disposition on all of this. I did not sense all of this from your previous posts, I sensed more confusion and despair than anything, which is a position I hate to see anyone in. Hopefully things will get better for you-it sounds like you've looked at both sides of this. Best of luck, as always.
M-34 XW-32 D-7 Found OM's presence 4/09 Separated 12/09 Divorced 8/10 GREAT relationship as coparents since 8/10
Alright hoping... Are you familiar with Chaos Theory? I'm guessing you are...
The reason I ask is, it does appear you are hoping to find a distinct pattern in your W's behaviour so that you can pinpoint where she will be next, so that you can plan your next action.
I completely get what you said above. Yes, we understand our spouses better than most people. At least, we have a long enough experience of them that we should be able to pick up subtle nuances in their behaviour, just as their parents might.
I also understand you are doing everything you can to analyze and cross examine what you are doing against her reactions.
I further understand that GAL is a normal behaviour for you, so that is nothing new for you...
Can we slow this down a bit...? Not sure if I can completely keep up.
While I don't have any statistics on how fast or how slow someone can DB... The rule of thumb here is, this is a marathon, not a sprint.
I find a lot of what you write is focused on your W.
Are you giving any of your GAL or 180s a chance to stick? That would be giving them enough time to become part of your "norm".
As an example, in your last post, you indicated that you have always GAL'd and now you're doing a little more... That would be considered "more of the same".
It is this "more of the same" behaviour that often keeps us stuck. In the years that you have been married to your W, could you describe yourself in the marriage and indicate what some of the "more of the same" behaviours would be, for you.
In that way, we can at least help support you in some 180s that might help give you a certain "mystique" that might cause your W to take notice of you more, make her more curious as to what you are up to. The goal here would be to present a condition where your wife may stop moving away from you and start moving towards you...
Kaffe I do hear what your saying and a lot of it makes sense.
I agree I do focus on my W a lot, probably too much, but that doesn't mean I'm not focusing on me as well.
It really hasn't been enough time to as of yet for the 180's to stick, but I do know in my heart for me they have. I base this on previous complaints she had and once I got it, I got it. I'm almost obsessive with myself when it is something I really want. I really want to get back to the person I was many years ago.
As far as the GAL and being "more of the same" I would have to disagree with that. For one she never really had a problem with me having a life until it got out of control. Then I immediately put a stop to that. Long story, but it was fixed and we never had an issue with it again. If I were to make changes with the GAL I would be at home going crazy and not spending time with friends, out golfing, boating, and such. Actually Chuck, my DB coach thinks I'm doing very well in the GAL category.
My 180 that had to change was my constant scrutinizing, jealousy, anger, lack of trust, lack of encouragement, controlling, basically I haven't allowed this woman to be herself and no wonder why she chose to no longer love me and was so miserable. These are all things that have changed. For example yesterday when I asked her if she had fun the night before and she replied she didn't go out. I am almost positive she did, however I just took her answer and said oh I'm sorry you didn't get out and have a good time. The old me would have pushed and pried to get the real answer. Even though I believe she did go out, I had to assume she had her reasons for not telling me.
The biggest issue I am having is will my wife notice my changes. If so will she allow herself to put her guard down and explore the possibility of a reconciliation. I don't know the answer to that as she only does. I know I have only been doing LTR for about a week with a couple slips early into it. I did read somewhere that by doing this it gives her time to grieve, think, and such. However, I do not think that is going to happen because she is so distracted. Given we have been separated 3 weeks and papers filed for 2 weeks and in this time she has never been alone to think. The 1st 2 weeks she was talking to a friend nightly about her brother and his problems in her down time for an a couple hours until she would go to sleep. She is done with that and moved on to some guy she met on eharmony and talks with him on a nightly basis for a couple hours until its time to go to sleep. How is she going to grieve this way? I really do believe I am going to one of the people that DB does not work for, but at the same time I do have hope. Nonetheless whatever happens and how this plays out I will be fine and I will be me.
So would it be fair of me to ask if PATIENCE would be a 180 that might have good results?
I understand you feel highly tuned to your wife and believe she is noticing the changes. The question remains, will she TRUST the changes will stick and are permanent? That can only come from TIME as she will process things AT HER PACE.
The WAS sets the pace in these sitches, NOT us. And generally, they do not do well under pressure. They often pull further away. No matter how much and how fast you want the R, for all intents and purposes, that will completely depend on your W and HER time frame.
Something further to continue is, you indicate that your W has been in and out of EAs over a period of time (with an ex only? for the duration of your M, to date?).
I am sure you appreciate there is some reason this is ongoing. Is there something about your wife when you KNOW she has gone back to the EA? And if so, can you go to that time and examine what may have been happening within the M that may have brought the EA back?
Because an A is not a CAUSE, it is an EFFECT or "SYMPTOM" of an underlying problem with the M that has not been resolved.
Perhaps your W was never ALL IN to the M in the first place and she feels she has "unfinished business". Or perhaps she's addicted to him and that is something that needs to be addressed.
Because even if your W chooses to leave the EA now and return back to status quo (with your changes that have stuck), do you really believe the changes will be enough to ensure that your W will NEVER get into another EA? While the EA may not have anything to do about YOU, rather they are your W's choice, the question would be... why does she move towards him? How can you be a much stronger magnet that will draw her towards you? How can you be a man that only a fool would leave? Or is your wife just a fool?
That is something to consider looking at, while you choose PATIENCE to see if your 180s have stuck.
You asked if your W will notice your changes. I am being facetious when I ask "wouldn't YOU know?" Because the changes should show up in the subtle changes to your W's behaviour that you are quick to notice?
Here's the thing... We cannot mind read. We can extrapolate behaviour and changes therein, to better guess about what your spouses might be thinking. But we never know.
There are many observations where, when pressure is applied to an object, there is a perceived (or real) change in direction. But when the original direction has deep roots or is influenced by a stronger gravity, and the pressure is let off, there will be a tendency for that object to revert back to the old path.
There is something deeper than just making changes and observing results. It's called FAITH!
Will your W notice the changes? If the changes are REAL (not a trick or ploy) and PERMANENT (only through time, with practice and vigilance), your W WILL notice. Have FAITH in that. And note that even if the changes are real and permanent and your W notices... that does not mean she will choose to return to you.
And if your W does want to rec... the DB can not stop. Or all is likely to be for naught and your M will continue down the pattern that has already been established. The next time... who knows...?
And what about plan B? If your W does not come around this time. If your M does end up in D... what are some things you are doing FOR YOU, that will make you a better catch and will result in a better, more healthy R with someone in the future?
It would be very fair to ask of patience. That is something about me I am working on. I do indeed tend to be very impatient. I also am a bad listener. When she would complain I would tend to just take for granted that I love you, You love me, deal with it. It was only when she started a conversation with "we need to talk" is when she got my attention and I listened. Shame on me because the complaining should have been enough for me to hear and make adjustments.
I do know why W was in and out of EA. That was an issue that was resolved. It was because of me and the things I wasn't doing. She needs attention and to feel like a princess. I can trace back each one of those instances and when I revisit it in my mind I can here her complain, I'm not there for her, spend time with her, etc. She had admitted to me she always runs back to ex because she knew he would give her the attention. BTW it was always and only via email. One of the EA was due to post postpartum depression with the birth of our S and another was depression related to losing a child mid-term. I think this is part of her reasoning for the eharmony and new guy. I do believe it's a rebound thing and EA built into one. Who knows if she chooses to pursuer further maybe it will work out for her.
As far as me seeing subtle changes in her noticing my changes I'm not sure. I mean we have been from day one on great speaking terms. She has made it crystal clear she wants to maintain a good friendship and spend family time, etc. I guess what I'm saying she is and has been warm from the start. Only time she was hostile was when I pushed. The warm and kindness is her personality.
Even if she does notice my changes and they are permanent. I do have the FAITH she will choose not to return to me. I don't believe she would allow herself to choose to love me again. No real basis for that reasoning other than gut feeling. However I have been wrong so many times so who knows. Can't really be concerned with that.
Funny you ask about plan B and what I'm doing to make myself a better catch and such. I'm just getting back to the person I am. When I was that person I like to think I was a good catch. I never had a problem getting a date. I do remember a time when people would tell her how lucky she was to have me etc. That was then though, when I was the real me. Somehow throughout the years I lost touch with myself. In addition to getting back to me I'm working other skills such as listening, communication, and yes patience. Something I was lacking even when I did meet her.
I know this may sound selfish, but at this time I do not want another R. I mean I would love to have one with my W and have my family back, but other than that I think not. I know there are benefits to being S & M. To be honest I think M and R is the most rewarding of the two, but at the same time the most frustrating and aggravating. It has been sort of nice to do whatever whenever. I do concede that is temporary and will get old. So at some point in time I will want another R. Just not now.
As far as my goals go I would have to say continue to build my business, be there and build my R with my children the best that I can, and even build a friendship with W no matter where it leads. Spend more time doing some of things I enjoy like golfing, finish flight training, travel a bit more, retire.
The return to being the person I was or should I say am is by the following
I have been very non-judgemental and supportive of her actions whether I agree with them or not. To be more specific I have not made an issue of her EA or dating this other guy. For that matter I don't know how far this has went if its just been phone and text or if she actually went out on a date. It drives me crazy but I have not brought it up nor questioned it.
I have learned not to pry and beat the horse as they say. Example on Sunday when she picked up kids I asked how her night was and she told me she didn't go out. I wasn't sure if she did or didn't but I just took that as her answer and let it go. I never mentioned another word of it.
Communicating has been a bit tough as we really haven't communicated much lately. I love to talk. Probably too much. So as far as my communication with her goes I let her initiate contact and listen to what she says and for a change I let it process for a second before I respond. I have sort of went almost dark I guess. Spoke for 2 minutes on Sunday and didn't here from her again until today. She sent 3 line email. Told me just wanted to say hi and ask how my weekend was, told me about S having fun at parade, and about expected death in her family then wished I was having a good day. I replied short as well. Told her hello herself, cant wait for S to tell me about parade, gave condolences, told her I had a blast over the weekend....didn't give any details. Wished her a good day.
I have been learning to be more patient as in my mind I want this nightmare to end and call her but I know I have to see how the cards play out however long it takes. Actually patience is a new thing for me as I was never really patient.
I have returned to giving and everything about her. This can be confirmed by me not pressuring her to give it a chance because right now that isn't what she wants or if ever. Not giving her a hard time about dating because right now this is what she wants and as far as she is concerned it isn't an A because in her mind M is done and D is filed and moving along. I have not fought the divorce one bit and agreed on everything from child support, custody, property, and waiver of cooling off period to speed it up. I didn't even hire a lawyer. D should be final in Sept. I did this because this is what she tells me she wants. To me the most important thing is her happiness. So her needs/wants take place over mine. Something I failed to do for years.
The email today was a shock. It almost seems she can't go more than a day or 2 with no contact with me. I almost feel as if she wants me around but then again really doesn't. Very confusing.
I do have an appointment with my coach on Thursday. Very much needed and can't wait for it. I seem to feel much better after speaking with him and for whatever reason more hope. Although hope is a dangerous thing.
You seem to indicate that your wife has entered into EA type relationships several times over your relatively brief marriage.
How are you ok with this?
Or are you mischaracterizing simple friendship with male acquaintances as EA?
In the first case, I would suggest that your wife has some issues that are not likely to be fixed unless, at some point, the two of you agree that they are issues.
In the second case, I would suggest that you have some issues regarding control and lack of self-confidence. Again, these are very difficult issues that would stand in the way of a happy marriage.
The second thing has to do with encouraging her to go out on a date with the eHarmony guy.
Regardless of your attempts at explaining how it amounted to a "180" for you (and I think you need to re-read just what 180's are all about), this was a poor move.
It reinforces her notion that the divorce is eminent, that you agree the two of you are not compatible for marriage, and sends the underlying message that you are willing to belittle yourself to keep some semblance of a relationship with her.
Don't get me wrong however. If your wife is dating, I don't suggest you call her in on the carpet or rant and rave about it. One of your primary lessons to learn here is that you cannot control your wife or her choices.
But at the same time, there is a HUGE difference between butting OUT of her business, and ENCOURAGING her to explore a relationship outside your marriage.
I'm all for the friendly approach to these marital crises, ESPECIALLY when kids are involved. But keeping things amiable is not the same as giving your spouse carte blanche to do as she pleases, and then playing "happy family" with her the next day.
When my divorce was finalized, my ex-wife wrote me an email explaining how we would always be friends and how she was sure that we could continue to do things with our boys because we would never be like those other divorced couples.
She was spending a long weekend with an old crush from when she was 16 at the time.
Your wife is teetering on the edge of a decision. You are so far making it so that she does not have to decide by allowing her to have both.
Again, this is not a call to attempt to lay down the law.
It is me urging you to reconsider being an active participant in her destruction of your marriage.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
