Don't know where I am

[Harrier]

But it isn't here.

Long difficult conversation tonight. I went out of town for a bout 8 days. I thought there was a small chance that my W might "see the light" of me living away from here.
Boy did she ever and not in a good way. She said the time apart crystalized the idea that we should absolutely live apart.

Oh well, not like I thought I had a prayer. I came back and we had a long talk.

As I said earlier, by any definition, I am NOT PIECING. I don't know where I belong now. I'm not a newbie...not to mention I p'oed a number of people there.

Here is how things stand.

1. She wants to live apart - (see above)

2. She has has no romantic feelings for me and doesn't want to have sex at all.
(heartbreaking)

3. Doesn't know if those feelings (No. 2) can come back and doesn't want to be in a marriage without them.

4.She does love and care for me very much. She said I was the most important person in her life. And said she really couldn't imagine me not being in her life in some way. That way right now is really good close friends. She said that she was kinda taken aback that I didn't seem to want to cling to any relationship between us.

5. Right now she is at a point where she is not sure if she can get past the stuff that went on the past 16 months. Actually, she sounded like she doesn't think she can, but isn't willing to make any decisions based on that now.

6. She said if I forced her into making a decision now - it would be divorce.

7. Says the most important thing between us is that we have some kind of relationship after everything - if we stay married or not. (see No. 4)

8. Doesn't really want to work on the R right now. (why I'm not in piecing, it takes 2 to tango)

9. Right now is willing to to go IC to adress some of her issues with me, but said that there are no guarantees.

10. I think she would like to have romantic feelings with me and like things to work out, but like she said before. Just can't try now.

11. Thinks we stil need a Long time.

12. She did acknowledge that things have improved a lot on the past couple months, and she is at a place now where she didn't think she would get - liking me wanting to be friends, not getting D right away.

13. Didn't cover MC, but I think that is off the table as a topic of convo at least until I move out.

So then after all that I'm in the kitchen and I'm making the kids lunches. She comes to me and gives me a kiss and hug and holds me for a while. She said she really loves me and I say ILY and that I don't say that enough to her.

My take - (I know, no mind reading)

Best case - she really wants to have those feelings, but is protecting herself until she can trust me again to let those feelings return. She is really wary because of the past 18 months and doesn't want to experience that again.

Worst case - she has decided she can't get past the stuff doesn't want to be married. The separation is a stepping stone and will put on a show for a couple months, then pull the trigger.

I am emotionally drained.

[XYZ]

H -

I feel for you, but let me tell you it's not over until you decide it's over. I could have written this list myself 2 months ago. W wanted me out and was adament that we were divorcing. I left and did GAL things. I stopped chasing and she's coming around. You have no way to know what will happen, but if you are anything like me then you are chasing her right now even when you don't mean to be and think you aren't - the tone of your post proves it.

Separation is painful. I won't sugar coat it, it [censored]. I've never done something so hard, but I'm 100% convinced that if I hadn't moved out then my sitch would not have started to turn.

I too am emotionally drained. I told my brother this morning that I feel like 10 months ago I was on a ship in the middle of the ocean and the ship sank. I have been swimming for 10 months and I'm exhausted. This week I saw land on the horizon for the first time in those 10 months. That's great, but I know that it will take at least 6 more months of swimming to get there. What choice do I have? I could just drown, but that's not very appealing, so I swim. Doesn’t matter how tired I am, I swim. You can too.

My opinion is this, other's may differ and what you chose is up to you:
(1) Tell her ok, I accept that
(2) Move out
(3) Be the best dad you can be
(4) GAL you A$$ off
(5) Be happy about it - or fake it
(6) Stop stop stop talking about your marriage EVER
(7) and swim. Land might be right over the next wave, you never know.

[Harrier]

I am not strong enough right now. If not for my kids...I don't know what I'd do.

Something fundamentally changed last night. I lost hope. I know hope isn't a plan and some would say that hope clouds the issue and hope makes things worse. But it was nice to have.

I have told her that I accept moving out, in fact I've been consistent and she agreed that I've been saying sooner rather than later.

I'm stuck right now. I can't move out right now due to finances. GAL is tough. I never was much at faking it that's why moving out would be easier as I wouldn't have to fake it as much.

Nothing has affected my R with my kids and she knows that.

I should focus on the future but she's really put me in a bind on this because if I say to her that I don't want any kind of post-divorce friendship - she says I'm being selfish by only wanting it my way and that the relationship and her must not be that important because I don't want her in my life.

Then she accuses me of not fighting for any kind of relationship. (Because she did when we first met. I told her I didn't want to date her and she insisted that we still be friends and worked to make that happen.) What she doesn't get is that its just too damn painful to have her in my life if everything goes the way I think it will. She wants it both ways.

I also really need to think about what I want in this M and if she can give it.

I asked her this "What if we go through all this and you decide that you want to stay together, but I decide I can't? What would you do?"

She said "I'd beg you not to and ask what I can do to changes things."

So this morning we are getting the kids in our car. now sometimes she gives me a hug before I get into my car. Today I was just wanting to get to my car and I was waiting for her to finish buckling in our son. As I went past her she squeezed my shoulder.

Oh well.

[Harrier]

X-man,

I wish I could chat with you about this. I know the "rules" JTB, so I'm not advocating anything other than mere desire. So please don't admonish me.

[XYZ]

I know your pain. I went through this exact process 2 months ago. Let me tell you how it went for me. You can decide what that means to you.

* I told W that if she couldn't work on M, then I couldn't stay
* I moved out.
* I lost all hope that my M would make it.
* Losing hope meant that I had to develop a new vision of the future.
* So I dated. I don't recommend this BTW. But if proved to me that I would not die alone. There are TONS of women that want you. I promise. Tons.
* I stopped dating once I relized that (a) life would be fine without W. Not what I wanted, but fine and (b) I really didn't want to date yet.
* I stopped contacting W at all except for kids.
* My actions reflected that I was "done" - I called W on crap behavior and stopped taking her crap just for the sake of peace.
* I reconnected with friends and enjoyed having some me time for the first time in a decade.
* I acted happy any time I was around her, mainly because I was starting to BE happy again.

All that is fine, but you know what the key was? I really, honestly, got the point where I knew I'd be ok either way. How many times have you read that here? I'd seen it a million times and I'd tried it before, but just as you said something snapped in you last night, it snapped in me one night too, but a different snap. I would be ok no matter what.

Once that happened, my whole attitude changed. And very quickly so did she.

Don't know if that'll happen for you. Don't even know if it'll continue to happen for me, but those are the facts.

[XYZ]

What she doesn't get is that its just too damn painful to have her in my life if everything goes the way I think it will. She wants it both ways.

BTW, I totally get this. I vacillated on this issue myself. I told my W that I always wanted to be her friend. And then I told her I couldn't be her friend. Then I wanted to again. I feel the same way you do.

Ultimately, I told her that I was all or nothing. Had to be that way and my actions backed it up. When I moved out, I didn't call her. I didn't text her. I didn't mow the lawn (that's HER house, not mine). It was hard, but actually made it easier for me to figure out that I'd be ok without her.

[Harrier]

Here is where I have trouble.

My W said last night that she doesn't want to make any decisions now because it's 1) emotional and 2) we do have a lifetime history together and 3) despite all the M stuff we still get along as friends.

She hasn't made up her mind and I believe she is open to the possibility of having a great M and R again. She said I have to trust her. She said repeatedly it's one of the possible outcomes (how's that for psych speak). Of course she said divorce is also a possible outcome.

I don't know how open she is to trying things like dates, or MC. from convos in the past it appeared that she was open to this.

She just wants to get to the move out.

the whole friend issue is tough and I know A LOT of people struggle with it.

I can't say I'd be okay either way now. I am too mad at her, the situation but mostly myself. I know I have to reach that point, perhaps moving out will help with that.

[XYZ]

You know what my W said to me last night? Stung like crazy but I think it's helped. She told me how many people have commented to her how much happier she seems since I moved out. Wow. Way not easy to hear that!

BOTH of our attitudes had to change. I was clingy and needy. I took her crap because I didn't want to have a fight. She was pissed and angry and didn't want to spend time with me.

We both got space. I got my manliness back. She got rid of some anger. It has helped a ton.

[betterman77]

All that is fine, but you know what the key was? I really, honestly, got the point where I knew I'd be ok either way. How many times have you read that here? I'd seen it a million times and I'd tried it before, but just as you said something snapped in you last night, it snapped in me one night too, but a different snap. I would be ok no matter what.

Once that happened, my whole attitude changed. And very quickly so did she.

Don't know if that'll happen for you. Don't even know if it'll continue to happen for me, but those are the facts.

Harrier,
I thought I would chime in and let you know that this has recently happened for me to. One day as I was playing with the kids in the park I started to notice most of the woman were checking me out and how I was interacting with my kids. After chatting with a few it came to me that no matter what happens with my W I was going to be ok. From that day on my attitude changed as well and so has my W's for the better. My sitch still has a ways to go and we all share the same goal to R our M. But to be honest if my W packed up and left me and the kids tomorrow it wouldn't be close to as bad as I might have thought it was a year ago.

Really focusing on my own inner work and the relationship with my kids and not worrying what my W is thinking or wondering is what has gotten to me to this point.

I've also realized that i've turned into a really great catch and whoever wants to be with me I will make them very happy. And so will you.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

At times like this, I hate the 'rules' too. I used to rebel against them myself, but in order to post, I towed the line. I understand why they are there.

Although at one point in time the rules were much more lax.

You'd might notice that in my very first thread.

In what you are going through Harrier, hope, still has its place. Hope is a fickle thing though, or rather the after effects. There is nothing wrong with 'hope' inheritently. It's like a child. Untempered? It will destroy your house as it runs rampant. Raised with values and it will enrich your world.

As strange as this may sound Harrier and X, I think that pieicng has a better chance of succeeding when both spouses are...uncertain and wary.

A leap of faith. If both of you took it, you might be surprised.