Words get in the way

[angel61]

HI All,

Starting a thread here to get advice.

Going by the definition of piecing, we are not there yet.

More than a month ago, we had a big problem with our D12. We found out she was cutting, and her therapist told us that she needed the support of a stable home, that we had to put our issues aside for a while and work on providing her the family support she needed. Both H and I wholeheartedly did that.

About a week into that, I sensed a change in H. He started to act more concerned towards me, connecting with me, calling me at work, etc. On our spring break vacation, we went to our home country, and was with his family. Whilethere, we did a lot of things together, I could see him genuinely being happy agan, and we started getting really comfortable with each other. Once, I was questioning him a little with regards to something that he may have been doing which was related to OW, and he told me not to rock the boat now that we were starting to have good convos.

When we got back, he told me that he felt that he could accept things the way they are now and stay in the M. This is of course related to the MLC script " I could not live this way for the rest of my life; that it would make him miserable not to feel "in love", blahblahblah".

We have had a few downs since then, but it seems like he is determined to move forward; the last was when he caught me snooping, he was so angry at me but the next day we picked up where we left off.

I have learned also to be forgiving; finally have managed to leave behind my resentment, and even the snooping. I know he still is in touch with his OW, but it seems like it is no longer an active EA, more like a friendship. I know he is still struggling with his feelings for her though, but I know my H, if he has made up his mind to stay, he will. My feeling is that I will just let him deal with ending his feelings for OW is way and not meddle. It makes me more at peacce.

I see him too making a lot of effort to please me, and to be patient with me, and that is enough for now.

I know I love him unconditionally, and that I am so grateful that finally we are at this point where wordlessly (thus the title of the thread), we are both working on the M.

My problem though is I have been suppressing my feelings for so long that right now, I don't feel that spark anymore.

Last weekend, we finally had a date night - we went to vegas, just the two of us. He lanned on it, we went shopping, nice dinner, then we even ML.

But because we were both avoiding R talk, there did not seem to be much we could talk about. I actually got bored during our drive there and back. I racked my brains for things to talk about but could not find anything. I felt like whatever I brought up went flat. the more anxious I was, the less I could think of what to say.

I would think to myself "Oh no, if he were with OW he probably would be so entertained!"

By the time we got back home I felt like I had an overdose of togetherness, and I sensed so did he! We both diod not talk much for the next two days.

The third day he started calling me again, but I sensed a gap.

Right now, we seem to be at some sort of stand still.

Could this be a prelude to piecing?

[gutwrenching]

My opinion is you will not truly be piecing as long as OW is involved. You might be close, but will never be more than close as long as there is a 3rd person in the R.

Why can't you talk about the R...probably for you because you know there is another person involved and for him because he is getting needs me by this other person.

You are at a standstill you say...so try something different.

[Cyrena]

The thing about an EA is, the affair partner doesn't have to see that person in order to fantasize about how wonderful she is, and how much happier he'd be with her--the fantasies can be enough for long stretches of time. However, until he has chosen to remove her from his mind, he will continue to consider her as a source of all good attributes, and demonize his spouse (who stands in the way of the EA relationship being fulfilled).

The only way to let him see you as you really are is to let go--to stop trying to meet his needs, to find ways of making yourself happy. Once he sees that the dynamic has changed in ways that would make it more difficult to come back into your heart, he will know that he has to let the fantasy go if he wants to keep you. And once he makes the choice to let the fantasy of the OW go, he will again approach you with the delight he felt when you were first together. At least, that's exactly what I found in my H's case.

[angel61]

I see your point Cyrena, but it is so hard when your H is at home.We try to normalize things because of our problem with D12, and thus I find it hard not to be my "usual" self, and I think so does my H.

I guess what you mean is that if at present I don't feel the "love" I should not worry about it and just find happiness in my own way. That I can do I think! If I am bored that he is not speaking to me I will just whip out a book or magazine. This past week I also planned a couple of outings - one with friends, and one with my sis.

I am actually not sure how much of contact with OW he has, but I am sure that although it is so much less, he still has thoughts of her. My take on the Vegas thing though was that he was trying to see if feelings were coming back for me.... but at that point it failed the taste test. Maybe I should have made me pursue me more. I was too receptive.

I have read it in a lot of cases here where DBing is hardest when you have a live in. I fully agree. It took me so long to detach, and even now, I have short episodes where I need to tell myself not to react, not panic.

I also cannot go dark, our lives are so intertwined, especially since H's family is so close to me and whenever we have family affairs, guests, etc. I am the one they call. I arrange stuff from our side, and I cannot let them down too. Like this coming weekend, we have a huge family gathering (again) and so his cousins and siblings and I have been planning kids activities, hotels, the drive, etc. and he also has done his share of getting routes, as we plan to drive down Highway 1 with the guests from our country.

This is one of the things that H and I also talked about before -the ripple effect of us having a D would be so far and wide. When he sees all that camarederie, I know he realizes that all that will be gone if he leaves, and all because of him.

That situation works both for and against us.

My copromise to DBing is to try to give him as much space and freedom to figure things out himslf, and perhaps with OW as well, and try not to add to the pressure. For the past week, i sensed him being depressed, I suppose because of the Vegas incident, so I stayed quiet and pretty much did not bring up any emotional issues. yesterday he got mad at me for a small incident. I was able to keep my cool and just treated it just as i would if my d12 had a tantrum - Ignore!
I left the house the whole PM. By the time I got home, he was all smiles and friendly.

Oh well, I don't really want to initiate R talk, I think I will wait for him to get ready.

In the meantime, I guess I could read some posts in this forum. MZ's seemed to undergo a period like mine, where her H was still in contact with OW. The period of indecision, I guess, or weaning off. In some cases, some may just do things cold turkey, but maybe some people need a gradual withdrawal from heir addiction!

[Cyrena]

Yes, it is hard when your H is at home. I remember how incredibly lonely I felt, eating and going to bed with someone who "wasn't there" emotionally. It was so difficult to stay upbeat and unaffected by his mood swings when there was nowhere to hide. I'd save up laundry, vacuuming, etc, to distract myself while he was home and not being companionable. (Other times he was eager to watch movies, etc, together.)

One of the lessons the spouses of MLCers need to learn is, we're not responsible for the moods of others. Nor should our own moods be tied in to changes in our spouse's (or children's, or friends'...) moods. Becoming responsible ONLY for our own feelings and learning not to be reactive to the feelings of others is one of the greatest gifts of MLC survival. It's great that you're finding yourself making headway on this.

My H also went though a period where after he gave up the OW and went through a horrific withdrawal, he then resumed contact with her--AND tried to be a good father, husband, etc. It was a period of hoping he'd never have to decide between us, of thinking he could always have both of us in his life and therefore feel great about himself because he wouldn't have to hurt either of us with a definite rejection from his life.

I think he would have tried to make this situation go on as long as possible, but finally his counsellor insisted he had to come to a decision. That was when the hard work began and he began to face his issues, and finally emerged ready to begin Piecing. I suppose a gradual withdrawal from one's addiction might work for some MLCers, but I don't believe my H could have done it without his counsellor's advice, encouragement, and explanations to him regarding the entire withdrawal process.

[angel61]

I remember how incredibly lonely I felt, eating and going to bed with someone who "wasn't there" emotionally. It was so difficult to stay upbeat and unaffected by his mood swings when there was nowhere to hide. I'd save up laundry, vacuuming, etc, to distract myself while he was home and not being companionable. My H also went though a period where after he gave up the OW and went through a horrific withdrawal, he then resumed contact with her--AND tried to be a good father, husband, etc. It was a period of hoping he'd never have to decide between us, of thinking he could always have both of us in his life and therefore feel great about himself because he wouldn't have to hurt either of us with a definite rejection from his life.

OMG Cyrena. Everything you described happening to you before is now happening to me.

I know something has to happen that will make H decide in the end. As of now, I feel he is not ready yet, but he will be.

OW will be leaving back to her home country by either September or October. H has always known that choosing her is jumping over the cliff, and he has said he would not and knew that their relationship was doomed. In a way its like a diabetic person asking for one more piece of cake, even if it is forbidden. He knows that she is bad for him, and my sense is he is near the point where he will realize that keeping contact with her is hurting him more than making him feel better.

Question for you: when you H was being companionable at that time, were you receptive? Were you affectionate with him, or did you keep your distance? Were you more like friends? Were you intimate? Sometimes I am not sure if I am too available to my H, and even pursuing when it comes to sex, as I am the initiator most of the time since we have been in this sitch. Although I don't initiate unless he also gives me the cues (of course after a long time together, you know! and we have always been so attuned in the past, that even in our food cravings, we were always the same).

Right now I feel that H is observing me, and judging. I feel anxious and uncomfortable at times, so afraid I would slip up, so I keep on telling myself to relax and act naturally, no expectations. This morning for example, at breakfast, he did not prepare anything for me (he always does). He was watching me to see if I would say anything, but I kept quiet and just went to the fridge and looked for food. Thats when he stood up and started talking to me normally, and I sensed that I did the right thing.

I try to enjoy the times he is being companionable and just ignore the times he is withdrawn into himself. I figure that those are times he is dealing with his own issues and processing. I still think about my hurt, the rejection, etc. but I am able to chase away those thoughts more easily now. Practice makes perfect, apparently.

H doesn't want to go to counselling, so all I could hope for is that he has enough insight to one day look into himself and decide. I think he actually has gone partway. In other words, now he is back inside the door, but still looking outside, then looking in, not yet seeing us clearly because of the glare from outside.

But his eyes will adjust someday.

He will not talk much, he has too much pride and the Asian saving face mentality is strong.

I will know when he has come back fully. But my biggest challenge is not to push him back out.

[Cyrena]

When my H was companionable or wanted to talk, I always followed his lead (whereas, if he began to criticize the children, etc, I'd just leave the room). I listened to him and validated him, but generally didn't tell him much about my life, as it didn't feel right sharing with someone who was not being my friend, and he wasn't ready to listen. I felt love and compassion for him, but let him control the speed of reconnection. We did ML when he initiated, but I reminded myself that I was chosing to do this--since he was not connecting emotionally during it.

I know what you mean about being observed and judged. As my H's counsellor said, they compare you to the OW, deliberately making her the "good guy" and you the "bad guy" to justify themselves (and twisting things to do so)--but it's a part of building their fantasy, and won't last once they choose to end the EA. My H would sometimes stare at me with hate-filled eyes; really, it was a reflection of his self-loathing.

You'll find it becomes easier to live without expectations of what he'll say or do. This morning he was satisfied when you didn't say anything about the lack of breakfast. One day he'll realize that you've become so self-sufficient and uncomplaining that he'll start to panic that you don't need him any more--and start checking what's going on with you.

Keep on living for you--you are becoming stronger all the time.

[Cyrena]

I wanted to add--the closer my H came to Acceptance, the more extreme his mood swings became, from admitting the OW was only an EA because spending short bursts with her kept him from being bored by her to thinking he'd never be happy without her in his life somehow, from making plans for his family to wanting to change everything about his life, from happy outbursts to talk of suicide, from wanting to talk openly to me to extended silences, and so forth. He seemed to be getting further and further away from his family even as, mentally, he was preparing to commit to us.

Did you ever read those fairy tales where the heroine is told that to get the hero back she's going to have to spend a night holding his hand while he keeps shape changing? It may seem as though he's turned into a wolf who's going to eat her, or all sorts of devilish monsters, but as long as she stands still and doesn't let go his hand throughout the night, she will get her heart's desire. Remember those stories when your MLCer struggles to attain his true form.

[angel61]

Thank you Cyrena for the warning! Those fairy tales do have a hidden meaning.... I will think of myself as the princess. Even the kissing the frog and the beauty and the beast have the same message : Love them in their ugliest, meanest form, knowing that inside them they will someday wake up and be your prince.....

I do see those struggles in my H, even if he does not speak. His eyes tell it all.

I have never seen him stare at me with hate, but he turns away from me, he does not look at me at times. Sometimes I have the feeling he is testing me, trying to see if I am expecting too much, if I am being what he says controlling, or if I would cross him. A flash of anger every now and then when I do things he does not like. But he has developed more patience too, things which would have pissed hm before seem to be more tolerated now. Then I would sometimes see him looking so sad. There are times when he prays that he is so intense, other times when he seems hopeless. I sometimes feel so much pity for him, because I know he is hurting, and probably at this point, even more than I am. I find myself happier now, having fun, just being thankful for everything again.

I hope that once he starts on his extreme swings I will not be pulled back into the drama. Maybe right now I am in the eye of the storm..... but this is a much deserved and needed respite, time to get ready for the other side. Knowing though that other people have passed this way before makes me confident I can do it too.

[angel61]

My H still does not realize that love is a choice. But at least he is starting to realize that committment has many meanings, and one of it is making sure that your family is protected and safe. A few months ago, I would say that he had fantasies that if he left us, he could have his freedom to pursue OW, and at the same time, still take care of us. He even proposed to me that we have a legal separation, but that he still live with us part time so he could cook for us and take care of us. I told him then and there that he either stay or go completely (divorce). He was then shocked, and blurted out "what if I can't live without you?"

It took time but he realized in the end what an mpossible situation it was.

As he said, he was not looking for the EA, it just happened. He never admitted to me that he loves her, but I did get into his computer once and read his journal, and at that time, I nearly died of heartbreak....in it he described feelings for her that he never had for me. My H was never romantic with me, our R came from a friendship, but with the OW, it seemed to hit him hard, right between the eyes.

It really made me question his feelings for me, that after a few days I came up to him and told him I was setting him free, but only after we had made sure that everything was in order - our finances, my career, our daughter who always had anxiety issues). This was sometime back in february. Then after I did that, I started having terrible anxiety attacks.

Our D then started having anxiety attacks as well, as she realized that our family was falling apart and she was losing her support. Then she cut herself, and everything changed. We had to re-evaluate our priorities.

We had always been so big on parenting. After we had our daughter, we became parents first and husband and wife next. Not a good thing I know. But at the end of the day, while we both have our faults, our D12 did not ask to be born and we owe it to her to make sure she grows up unharmed.

I have been reading MHL's sitch and it reinforces my gratitude that my H did not abandon us.

One more thing I realized as I was typing this: My H thought that I was miserable in our M. I think that is why he thought that his fantasy would be readily accepted by me. He was probably surprised by my reaction but realized that I did after all love him deeply. He had such a hard time processing that he had hurt me so badly. At that time, he also had the mindset that kids will get over divorce; his only experience with it is a cousin of his who underwent a mutually agreed upon amicable divorce, thus had no problem co-parenting.