New and totally confused

[4betterorworse]

My H and I have been together for 13 years - married for 6, and have two small children (5 and 22m). We've always bickered, but nothing serious. He had a tough time adjusting to life after kids - especially after our youngest who is very attached to me, and had major separate anxiety his first year. Last year when our littlest was about 10/11 months old we were fighting A LOT. I knew it was bad, but I also knew we were both severely sleep deprived and still adjusting to life as a family of four etc etc. He also has a very high pressure job and works like crazy, so wasn't home much anyways. We were also fighting a lot about me returning to work (as we always said I would stay home after we had our second child). He totally changed his tune and wanted me to go back. Anyways, we decided to go to some marriage counseling to see if it would help. We went to 3 sessions (which were only about 40 minutes each), and he told the counselor a bunch of issues that I wasn't aware of - nothing major - just some stuff about me that causes him stress. I was very accepting of what he said as I wasn't even aware that I was causing him this stress. Honestly, its still in my mind nothing major (ie i tend to freak out a bit the night before we are having a big party or something). I was willing to work on myself and move on. I also was able to open up to him about a few things - and he was pretty receptive about it as well. The one thing he did tell the counselor was that he didnt know if he was still in love with me. Well BAM that was like someone punched me in the face right there. I was devastated, but after a little while I could sort of understand why he would wonder that - as our physical relationship was almost not-existant and we had basically zero alone time. However, I was (and still am) convinced that 90% of those issues were related to lack of sleep (i was only getting about 2-3 hours a night, and nursing the baby around the clock - and the baby would NOT take a bottle). Anyways, we got through those few sessions - worked some stuff out, and decided I would go back to work for a year to save up some more money. He also told me in the privacy of our own home that he didn't mean what he said about maybe not being in love with me. He tried to explain that he thinks he IS in love with me, but that the feeling was different now - not the same and it worried him.

Anyways fast forward a few months - October. We started fighting quite a bit again - he was NOT helping me out at all with the kids and I was back to work full time and working full time. He told me on October 18th that he thinks we should have a trial separation. I stupidly (naively) beg and plead for us to try some other things first - as in my mind we hadn't tried anything other than a few measley sessions. We hadn't tried alone time together, or dates, or a weekend away or more counseling or anything. We also rarely talked - as he HATES to communicate - it makes him physically ill. Anyways he told me that he didnt think ANYTHING would help and that it was too little too late.
He's been gone for 6 months now - moved in with his mother. And things have been pretty damn good. We get along fabulously. We see quite a bit of each other as he of course wants to see the little ones. We don't go on dates or anything, but we spend family time together. He will often stay after the kids are in bed to watch tv or movies with me. I don't remember the last time we even bickered. We have someone rekindled our physical relationship and it has been fantastic (like better than its been in 13 years). He helps me more, he is a better parent, and I am a different person as I have taken all his issues to heart and have genuinely tried to better myself - at least for the issues that I felt were reasonable and true. We both seem to be better people in general.
But he won't come home. He says he loves me to death - but still doesn't know if he is love with me. He also says he has NO hope for our marriage and that there's a good chance that its over. He says that there is no chance of him ever being truly happy with me. So he basically is telling me its completely over. But as much as he disagrees with reconciling, he will NOT end this - at least not yet. He keeps saying that divorce is such an extreme and that he as much as he feels the way he does, he is scared that he will make the wrong decision. He says he wants to be 100% sure of his decision (yet in the same breath he tells me there is 0% chance of us reconciling).

I love him to death - and there is still stuff that drives me nuts about him (and vice versa I'm sure), but I still think we married for better or for worse, and this just happens to be a 'worse' moment. He swears he has not cheated, or thought about cheating, and that there is nobody else he may have feelings for. I tend to believe him, as I really don't think he would do that to me (he'd be more likely to flat out tell me that he wanted a divorce - and then start dating).

I made all the typical mistakes the first few weeks, but was recommended the DR and I read the entire book in one evening. I've tried the best I can to take the advice - and I truly believe the advice has helped, which is the reason we are actually in such a good place right now. Its so crazy to me - I have never been so happy with the way our relationship is - yet he is ready to end things forever. We've only talked about R about 3 times in 6 months. I've brought it up each time of course, but tried to choose my time wisely and address it in a way that was the least amount of pressure on him. I also don't have the luxury of avoiding the R talk forever, as I have two little ones to be concerned about - and having the oldest in kindergarten, and dealing with changing daycare etc (i don't want to keep moving them around unnecessarily).
Anyways, I have babbled enough for one post - there's so much more I could say of course, but quite frankly this whole situation just baffles my mind.

Any advice would be so greatly appreciated. I am really feeling quite broken and pretty darn worthless these days. Trying the best I can to GAL - joined a gym, doing a bootcamp etc, but as i am the primary care giver for my children, I am very much tied to home (we have no babysitters in our lives).

Thanks for listening.
LFG

[Onthemountaintop]

I read 12 books. Applied a lot of it. Got into Retrouvaille with 1/3 participation from my soon to be xwife.

Still getting divorced.

It isn't wether you love him, it is whether you can meet enough of his emotional needs (etc.) when he is with you. Equally, if you aren't a happy camper with him...your needs meeting, too.

I feel broken, too. It [censored]. I'm rebuilding now, and feeling better. If I had got to the feeling better part earlier, maybe the fall wouldn't have been so hard or have happened at all.

And then, there is destiny - the fact that some things need to happen to us for us to grow and become the best we can be.

If there was one thing always missing in my marriage that made my happiness hard to ever reach was that my wife was never happy with me. She claimed her love even until the month she/I filed. But she wasn't happy. A theorize that a woman's lack of self-esteem will drain a husband's self-worth.

Love running into him. He's your kids' father. Always. Maybe in the process, he'll rediscover his old love for you. More importantly, you might rediscover your love for you.

Good luck, LFG.

[~¤DG¤~]

Welcome to the community. You will find a lot of people who are in the same situation and will be a wonderful support system for you.

I guess I am a little confused as to how he doesn't know if he is in love with you if he's spending time with you, your physical relationship has improved, and you spend a lot of time together as a family.
However, that isn't for me to figure out.

I think you are making positive steps for yourself (joining the gym, etc) is there any time that your H takes the kids so you can have some time to yourself? If not, maybe that is something you should discuss with him. Give you time to figure out what it is that YOU want out of this M.

[4betterorworse]

Thanks for the comments. Its funny, I actually have recently started wondering if one of the big things holding him back is whether he believes I can truly be happy with HIM. That's something I am going to have to explore - I know in my heart of hearts that I CAN be happy with him but perhaps my past actions have lead him to believe otherwise. I've never had crazy high expectations of how our life together should be, but in the past, I have definitely given him slack about working too much, not spending enough time with the boys etc. And he has proven during our separation that he can actually put his family first. I think there is a lot of room in our relationship for compromise. Before I would have been annoyed if he wasn't home at a decent time most days of the week. Now, I think I would be more than happy if he committed to coming home a decent time say twice a week. Anyways, regardless of whether I know I can be happy with him again, if he doesn't believe me, I don't know how I would convince him.

In terms of getting out of the house, my H comes home for me to go to bootcamp twice a week - the rest of the week he just can't get home from work at a decent time. And he absolutely cannot pick the kids up from daycare, so I am always on the hook for that. On saturdays, I tend to do as many errands as I can - groceries, haircuts etc, as its quite hard to get stuff done with the two little ones during the week. Also, given their ages, my life is pretty focused around their activities - swimming lessons, soccer, they are both in speech therapy, birthday parties etc. I am really struggling being a single parent right now and trying to GAL at the same time. I know I will find the balance eventually, but at the same time I value every single moment with my babies, because I know deep down I may eventually only have them 50% of the time (which I swear would kill me).
Having said all of that, H has been helping as much as he can - he will pick up groceries for me on the way over if I ask, will do whatever he can outside of his working hours, he's offered to sleep over several times so I can sleep in etc
Him and I both know that we have a pretty darn good relationship that I sometimes wonder if he's thinking to himself 'oh this is so great - we can be really good friends when we get divorced' - I have to wonder if he thinks everything would stay the same (short of the physical relationship which of course would end).

Ahhh I don't know - deep down I just cant imagine how we could ever possible divorce, given how good things are, but then I just wonder if I am being totally naive, as his words and his action don't line up. I don't know if I should be fighting for this marriage - or give up graciously while we are on good terms.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear LFG,

You have an interesting, complicated situation. I want to boil it down to a couple things that hit chords in me.

You were a couple that fought a lot, now you aren't. It probably does frighten him to come home, b/c he assumes you two would resume your old negative habits. He may not know what to think or feel right now with what is going on with you two.

So you have to reassure him with ACTION, over time, that you are a different woman and therefore the 2 person marriage will be different too. It has to. You have to contrast the negative images/memories he has, with "new data" & positive images from you, that reveals the new you. Somehow he has to believe it can be better IN the new M, and not only in this semi-married limbo state. My DB coach suggested I "applaud loudly for the 1% of things he does that are positive". That's NOT easy to do at times. But it does help. Especially if he feels guilty, b/c I find that guilt often converts into anger at the person being wronged, ironically.

I read that after the birth of a 2nd child, couples report their lowest marital satisfaction levels. Geez that was SO true for us. Sleep deprivation matters. And a decreased sex life, decreased privacy and no alone time and very little socializing.

For about 3 years, my life was being m to H who was in med school and totally UNavailable most days/nights. I would get up early, (and hope that I had gotten 6 hours of sleep the night before) get dressed for work, then feeding and getting the little ones ready for the day, taking them to daycare, then going to my job and working a full day at a tough job, then getting them back from daycare, going home, doing dinner, cleaning the house and bathing the kids, putting them to bed, and having MAYBE having an hour of awake "free" time most weeknights. I could either work some more for my job, or watch something easy on TV, b/c I was exhausted or wash my hair, or make a phone call to a friend... my h always had work so talking with him in the week, just wasn't an option. I would pick a novel or paper to read and fall asleep within maybe 20 min...
So, been there, done that.
But It does get better, and in time he'll see that. But, will you two be m at that time?? A date night could still happen, correct? Even if you call it something else, (so it won't look like pursuit), it'd be nice to re-establish a R with him that is not solely kid focussed. Can you do that? Can you spend time with him and converse, but NOT about the kids? You need other things in common, and he needs to see those too.

You said that you don't use outside sitters and I understand why. But given the stakes, I must say that hiring some sitters now seems mandatory if you want to keep your m alive. It won't scar the kids to miss you one night a week, certainly not as much as having divorced parents will. Just do your best.

Have you done some 180s? What are they? Also, there are some mc's around who aren't as pro M, or solution based, as others. You can steer a good one that way even if they normally aren't. I told my mc that I wanted to stay m, (no, NOT "at all costs" but if possible, w/ dignity, self respect, etc) and my MC became almost like a DB coach. I also had a DB coach and the two of them together made a huge difference in my sitch.

I would have given us a 10% chance of remaining m, back in 06. But this summer it'll be 30 years so go figure.

I see hope in your situation. But you need an "action plan" based on 180s, solutions and goals that you can measure. For now, drop the R talk and don't assist in any efforts to divorce or "work out details" etc. Let HIM do all of that stuff, if he's interested....and I sense he isn't sure what he wants.'

It will help if you do some 180s and start looking your best and being upbeat around him, with a touch of mystery. I KNOW how hard it is at this time in your life. All I can say is "been there, done that."

As hard as it is now, You have some things going well for you already, like the ML going well is unusual, to say the least. Good for you! That's great! I don't think he's going to want to lose that closeness. And you are getting along better. Keep that up. Figure out why that is...You say he's conflict avoidant but even so, you are working details out without fighting and that's an improvement.

Lose the anger in front of him, or it'll fuel those negatives. (I know you have some things you want and need from him too, but for now, his uncertainty is the issue).The better you two get along, the harder it's going to be for him to keep justifying being gone. But yes, he'll have to see some downside to this living arrangement and I'm not sure he will if it remains this way indefinitely. For now, keep the road home paved and smooth.

It's possible that your old R should be over, and that you two can recreate a new happier and more loving M than before. That's really the big picture over all goal, right?

So come up with the 180's, and please, as hard as it is, do at least ONE GAL thing for you, b/c you have to somehow get your h to see you through a different set of eyes. You have to be more than the mother of his children...

Keep at it, and re-read the DR book (I think it's better than the first one IF you are already sure that you don't want a divorce, BC the first book contains a lot of anti-divorce info that may not be necessary to you now).

Good luck & keep on keeping on...

[Timetotry]

LFG,

Lots of similarities in our sitch. As 25 said, GAL and work on some 180s but don't say anything about it, just DO it. He will notice.

Patience, patience and more patience.

[25yearsmlc]

LFG,

Another thing struck me in your sitch I SO relate to. Maybe it'll help you too. My h is an MD and would often work extra cases and not come home "early" (meaning before the kids were asleep. He NEVER had normal or good hours, but they were either bad or terrible). ANYHOW, sometimes he had to do extra cases and sometimes he chose them for career reasons and later, for money. I was hurt and angered by those choices. I felt he was putting work/money ahead of family time and frankly, I wanted some family and couple time.

So, naturally, I "welcomed" him home with my arms crossed, figuratively and literally and an angry face. I didn't think he deserved a warm welcome home. I also worried that if I cut him slack on that, he'd do it even more or somehow I'd be treated worse.

BRILLIANTLY, I kept this approach up, even after years of no change, which should have proved my approach was failing...but did I try a different way? NOOOO b/c you see, I was "right" to be angry...get it???
Took me the DB/DR books to finally awaken to the idea that maybe, just maybe, if I provided a loving warm home for h, he'd LIKE IT MORE...

Guess what? He did!
It's a small example but it's a great one for ME to recall b/c I'm supposedly smart and open minded and blah blah blah. I have spent way too much time being angry at him and wanting him to change and not seeing the changes I wanted...until the light bulb went off and I realized I would not want to come home to ME if I were my h. I mean, no wonder....

Live and learn. And I thank DB for that. So I tell myself even now sometimes, "25, do you want to be right, or happy?" I choose happy and I think happy IS right.

[4betterorworse]

25 - thank you so much for your comments, insight and support. I have so much to say right now but I am so physically and emotionally exhausted that I need to go to sleep asap. I will post in the morning. Just wanted to make sure I acknowledged the support of everyone - as it seems EVERYBODY I talk to (in person) tells me how great divorce is and that I should just move on as (according to them) I will be happier (b/c clearly THEY know what would make me happy ergg). So for now, I am going to bed feeling completely sorry for myself as nobody is here to see me wallow Oh and for the record, I booked a stress seminar/spa thing tonight - trying to GAL and do something for myself - with some of my mama friends etc and alas they did not have time to do my pedicure as they overbooked the spa, so I am totally having a private pity party right now. just wanted a darn foot rub.. aghh Off to bed - will post in the AM.
And again - thank you all.

[4betterorworse]

Ok so here I go, my next attempt at posting about my situation and hopefully answer everyone's questions. I am so grateful for this support system, and I really appreciate all the feedback - good or bad. 25Years - your life back then sounds so unbelievably familiar. You just described my life to a t - except now I am doing it completely by myself. Wake up early, get both kids fed, dressed, teeth brushed, backpacks packed - drop the little one at daycare, race back to take the big one to the bus stop. Work all day, then race to pick them up from two different daycares, get them home, get dinner, baths and into bed. Add in swimming lessons, and soccer in between and I'm done with by 8pm. Then I try to run around the house tidying, getting school snacks ready for the next day, usually have to catch up on some work as I am always rushing off to get the kids from daycare etc etc. That is 100% my life. And that was my life pre-separation - its pretty much the same now. Except now when H is home, he totally helps out. And he makes the effort to be home BEFORE the kids go to sleep (as the whole point of coming home is to spend time with the kids - not me!). I am totally not against babysitters - we just don't have any!! We have no family in our city - but family only about 20 minutes away. However, my parents live up north at their cottage for half the year, and in the winter when they are home, they won't drive to my house (they say its too far - nice eh?). And my H's parents say they will babysit any time, but every time we ask they are busy - oh and we are not allowed to ask on the weekends, as they have a life. The rest of our family (aka siblings) won't babysit as they have their own children, and all of our friends have their own children so don't want to babysit. I've been trying to find a reliable teenager, but they are in such high demand in my area, that any decent one is impossible to get. It also seems like teenagers don't do much babysitting anymore? I don't maybe its just where I live. Anyways, if I had a babysitter, I would certainly be using one! Would love to go on some 'dates' with H, but he doesn't really think there is any point. The last time I brought it up he told me that going out would be easy, as we would be doing something fun that we enjoy, so we know it would be good so whats the point? I found that odd, but then he went on to say that its harder to spend time together at home - where its not all fun and games - and thats the real test. But the thing is, we have been getting along so fabulously at home too. Even this past saturday, he took the kids to his mom's for dinner and brought them home at bedtime then we just hung out and watched movies etc until like midnight. I know he likes being here and its a huge pain for him having to leave - esp since him mom lives 20 minutes away (where he lives right now). Not that its far, but at midnight when he's falling asleep - driving for 20 minutes is just not fun. But he still goes.
So I'm trying to think about how to get him to go on a date without thinking its a date - gotta brainstorm that one..
In terms of 180's, I did so many when we first separated after I read the book, that its hard for me to remember everything I did. Having said that, I firmly believe that the 180's are responsible for us getting along so great right now and for us to have found our intimacy again. He constantly reminds me that he is still totally and completely attracted to me, and that I should never ever doubt that. Basically I made sure I reacted entirely different to how I would have before to everything - and the biggest thing was actually NOT reacting to stuff - not even commenting on something that would normally tick me off etc. I started kissing him goodbye again - hadn't done that in probably a year. Even though he probably didn't want me to kiss him goodbye at first, I did in anyway. Anyways, I am actually running out of ideas for 180's right now, as quite frankly we really don't have much conflict in our lives - in fact I can't even think of one thing right now that is causing us problems. So I guess I need to think of ways to do 180's to make him see what he'd be missing. I'm going to have to think about that some more as well. So trying to GAL, but like I said, its so hard with no help with the kids. I did plan a girls night for Friday night - I used to have girls nights all the time before I had my 2nd baby, but haven't really been in the mood to go to a bar, get dressed up etc.. But I am looking fwd to it, and I've told H all about it. Nothing crazy, and he will be home to watch the kids, and he is always encouraging me to go out and have some fun and is supportive of it etc, but I know he will also secretly worry a bit, which makes me secretly happy. I did go out with a different set of girls about 2 months ago, and he told me afterwards that he hates thinking about me getting hit on at a bar (he's TOTALLY not the jealous type so that was interesting to hear). Anyways, I think I need to plan some regular girls nights, and I am thinking of planning a girls weekend to Montreal or something as well if I can swing it. And I am still doing my bootcamp, and I signed up for a new gym by my house that is scheduled to open in June.

Anyways, I apologize for my very long post - but my posts seem to take several days to approve, so I have several days worth of stuff to write when I do

Also, I love the comment about my old R being over, but there being the possibility of a new marriage - that is so true. All the 180's I have done etc, have actually changed me. They don't even feel like 180's anymore.

Well going to sign off for now - but looking forward to more feedback and suggestion. As good as our relationship 'seems', I am more of a realist than an optimist - so its hard for me to actually see any hope for us based on the words that he tells me. But he's killing me softly right now...

Good night - and thanks again to everyone.
LFG

[25yearsmlc]

sometimes it's best to keep things simple. Believe none of what they say and only half of what they DO.

I guess if you going out gets his attention, that's something. I'm hoping he has some fears of losing you, and having OM in the house around...b/c if he really has no fear of that, then he can pretty much cake eat indefinitely.
I am not saying to cheat or date, but to have some mystery...besides, if you do split up, you WILL date OM someday...

OTOH, if life is alright with you now (sounds like a net positive, given that he helps MORE now, or did I get that wrong?)

why rock the boat? Are you alright with things as they are, continuing for long? If not, you have a problem. But first, maybe you can decide if this is tolerable or not.

Sorry about the "supportive family". Keep giving them chances but don't get disappointed if they say no. Be thrilled for when they say yes. My mil baby sat our son once. She got drunk, passed out and didn't hear us banging on the door and calling her. Finally we had to break in to the house to retrieve our son (then 5 months). She never woke up nor did she call to see what happened to him...and she never babysat again either.

Yeah...glad those days are over. (Note to self: add that to "list of things not to do")

(( hugs ))