Tryin to do what works

[Denver_2010]

Thanks for the compliment on my post from earlier today Moose. It is nice to hear.

Thought that I would share with you a post that inspired me very early on in my situation. I think that it is old. I do not know who posted it originally. I stole it from another poster's thread, who I believe had problem taken it from another.

It is a success story. So it is encouraging. It contains good advice that I applied to my own situation when I was first beginning. here it is...

"After a long series of fights and some significant disillusion on my wife’s part regarding our marriage, we separated Oct. 29th of 2005. Married for 5 years with one young daughter. Regrettably, I moved out and as far as my wife was concerned, our marriage was over. Like so many of you out there, I was devastated. Fortunately, after the first few weeks, I found this website and Michelle’s book. Without a doubt, the advice and experiences that I gleaned from both the book and this board saved my marriage and gave me some sanity during my separation. After 5 long months, my wife and I have reconciled and our marriage is stronger than ever. We still have some healing to do, but I am back home with my wife and daughter. I thought it would be fitting to share what I have learned during the process, and reiterate some key elements of Michelle’s program that I found critical.

Before doing so, I should point out that my situation may be different than some. For one, there was not another man in the picture and my wife remained celibate during our separation as did I. The breakdown of my marriage stemmed from her anger and hurt that resulted mostly from my behavior. Biggies included: 1) an addiction to online pornography, 2) working too much, 3) partying too much and 4) not meeting her emotional needs. So some of you may be in a slightly different situation, particularly if there is an EA or PA in the works. Either of these adds another layer of complexity to a marriage breakdown. Also, at times I thought for sure my marriage was over. I was on the proverbial rollercoaster, and heard those terrible words after everything seemed to be going ok: “I don’t want any contact from this point forward, you will hear from me in about a month to work out the details…my decision is final. I wish you luck…” blah, blah, blah…..A month and half later I moved back home. BUT, some of you will not, and I have been through it once already, and you have to remember that you will heal and there will be a future, and it might be a lot better than the past.

Regardless, below are the most important things I learned and applied from DBing:

1. Buy Divorce Busting and the books and read them five times, and them read five more times.

2. Give her space and don’t pressure: This - my friends - is numero uno. If you cannot do this, you WILL surely end your marriage or at minimum prolong emotional and physical distance between you and your spouse indefinitely. Don’t believe me? Then keep doing it and see what happens. I know it is hard, and yes, it was unbelievably frustrating for me. At first I did not succeed, and it really pissed her off. To you such behavior may seem as if you are showing your commitment and love, but to her, you are being selfish and disrespectful. My wife told me recently that one of the most important things I did during our separation was to back off and let her think. She needed to MISS ME. Last Christmas she went home to her parents (who by the way despise me and still do) and I drove across the country to see my family. I did not call or email for two weeks. Guess who started to call and email me saying she missed me within a week or so? SO, this means stop calling, stop emailing, stop text messaging, stop asking for dates/time together etc. etc. If you want her back, LEAVE HER ALONE. Pressure speaks volumes about desperation and weakness – something women find incredibly unattractive. Women want someone who is strong, silent and dependable. Begging, pleading, crying, manipulating and trying to convince her to change her mind will only make you repulsive and WILL push her out the door faster than anything else! You have to be strong and cool. This does not mean you should ignore her completely. But in general, let her contact you, and if she won’t, DON’T pick up the phone or email. Let her know occasionally that you are her friend and you are there for her or your kids (if you have any) if they/she need anything. And I mean, a one or two sentence email or voicemail, and don’t tell her you love her and miss her, and don’t use this as an excuse to get her on the phone and start blabbering about how much you love her, want a second chance, will change, want to make it work…blah blah blah, because all that she hears is exactly that - “blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine moan, moan, moan.” She hears a pathetic, frightened man (which we all are when we going through this) but don’t let her see it. Who wants to live with and depend upon someone like this? I wouldn’t. So, for God’s sake people, IF YOU WANT HER BACK LEAVE HER ALONE. She is driving this train, and you have to accept that. Patience is your indispensable ally. Cloying attempts at affection and desperation are your enemies. There is nothing you can say or do to change her mind. If she does change her mind, it will be on her terms and her schedule – period. No pressure also means NO ULTIMATIUMS such as “you have one month to make a decision, or I am going to file for divorce.” This is a very bad idea. You will likely get it. Keep your mouth shut and back off.

3. When you are together ALWAYS AGREE, keep your mouth shut and LISTEN intently to every word she says: When you do get chance to talk to her or spend time with her – and you will – ALWAYS try your hardest to be upbeat, positive, friendly, considerate and DON’T get angry or talk about your feelings and what YOU WANT. Stay positive and don’t bring up the relationship unless she does, and when she does, keep your trap shut and listen to everything she says. Want to stay out of trouble? Listen. Want to get back in the house? Listen. Want to have a long loving relationship? Listen. My God, listen till the blood drips from your ears; listen till you want to scream out a solution; listen until she has nothing left to say and when she’s done, shut up and listen some more. Women are the caregivers and if you want her to give, you’d better do some caring. Not only should you listen, but when you do speak, always AGREE. Validate what she says, and don’t argue. For example, “you were a complete jerk, you hurt me, you never spent time with our family, you’re selfish, you have two heads, the moon is made of chocolate etc etc…” I don’t care what she says, just say…”You’re right…I was a jerk, I am sorry and I screwed up…and your right the moon is made of chocolate and I have two heads. If you want me to leave, I understand, your right, maybe it would never work, but I do love you and I’ll always be here for you and the kids if you need anything.” It works people. When she starts talking about your failures and why the marriage was so horrible, much of which is probably true, she is waiting for you to react in anger, hurt, frustration, and let you say horrible things to her, blame her for everything and storm out of the house because this is the type of behavior that validates her thoughts, expectations and rationalizations for walking away. Such behavior will make her feel better. When you DON’T act like this, it will throw her for a loop and she will be completely bewildered. Try it. But you have to be consistent. As aside, this doesn’t mean you should be a doormat. This simply means listening and validating her feelings, thoughts and emotions regarding you, her and the marriage. It does not mean that you have to accept ridiculous requests regarding things such as financial or property issues. If these come up, respectfully and calmly disagree. In fact, you can use them to buy time. For example, you might say: “that is not acceptable to me at this point, and it is something we can negotiate or work out in a few weeks, but I am sure we can find an amiable middle ground. I don’t want you and the kids to be a bad position. Remember I am your best friend regardless of what happens.”

4. Change (do the 180s) and don’t tell her you have or are changing: Now this one is actually as important as the first one because if don’t make some changes, then you will be back in the same boat soon enough. Also, the changes will make you happier. In my case, I had to do some serious soul searching and self analyzing that included counseling and joining a support group for sexual addiction (i.e., online pornography). Both have helped me immensely. Now…you cannot tell your wife that you are or have changed. Words don’t mean sh** especially to our estranged spouses. Actions speak louder than words, and make sure the changes and self realizations are genuine. She will be watching even if you don’t realize it; and your behavior will be scrutinized very closely. She is examining everything under a microscope under high magnification, and please don’t try and B.S. or manipulate her. Women hate it when they perceive that they are being manipulated in a relationship. She will see right through it like panes of glass…trust me on this one. In some cases, they will get really pissed when you start making changes and start cater wallowing about why you didn’t do these things before you separated and cause everyone so much pain…etc. etc. “why did it take this for you to realize you needed some help.” Let them say it….respond with something like “men are insulated and sometimes it takes something really devastating before we realize our shortcomings” and this is true of course.

5. “Get a life” (GAL) or at least act like you are getting a life and doing “just fine:” Go to the gym, go hiking, take trips, go for a walk, take classes. You get the idea. They are not going to want to come back to you until they can see that you are strong enough to survive without them, and anyway, doing things might make you feel better. In my case, only the trips really helped and in general I felt pretty crappy regardless of what I was doing. BUT, don’t let them know this. Don’t show it. Fake it if you have to. If you are doing fun and interesting things, they will wonder about it, and probably wish they were doing them with you. However, as is the case with your 180s, it may piss them off. I remember my wife saying something like “oh, now you are having fun and doing all these wonderful and positive things that you would never do with me...guess my love wasn’t enough.” Let them say it, shut up and keep doing what you are doing because it is getting their attention. If anything, say something like “you would love for them to join you but are not going to push because you are respecting their need for space and time.” What about “going dark?” You have to be careful with this one because it can backfire depending upon your situation. In mine, it was delicate because one of her complaints was that I was too distant in our marriage. So I had to be careful here, but it does help somewhat. However, when she called or emailed during dark periods, I was always there to answer the phone or respond to the email ASAP.

Hope this helps and good luck to you all. I know it [censored], but hang in there. Things will get better regardless of what happens with your current situation. The most important thing I learned was to back off, give her space, detach whatever you want to call it without appear to abandon her or my child. This is the hardest thing to do, but it is absolutely necessary if you want success."

[NEmoose43]

Denver, thank you so much man, this means a lot. I guess I should take heart about the fact that I've already done some of it...but obviously I've really blown it on some of the other advice.

I'm really trying to just digest all of this right now. I guess the main thing is to just shut the F up. I know I'm not going to see W til at least Friday if at all, so that's a good thing. Will allow me to GAL and try to deal with going dim as best I can.

It's so hard to be in the house alone right now. I would so love to be able to fall asleep next to her tonight.

Lord please send me some patience...this is so hard.

[ninelives]

NIce post for sure MOOSE however, this lucky guy didnt have an OM in the picture. That sure adds a different dynmanic to the sitch.

Still , Anything that gives you solace is good. Just try and not find false hope as I believe its a totally different sitch to what we are facing .

9

[NEmoose43]

I see that too 9, but I think a huge part of my sitch is having W see that I am willing to move past whatever happened with OM. And if I'm taking her at her word, she is still swearing up one side and down the other that nothing else has happened with him. I don't know for sure how she feels about him, and I know obsessing on that does nothing but hurt me and my efforts at DB.

One thing to note...I now know that there was no way anything physical happened with them the night that she stayed at his house this past week. With the discovery of W's kidney stone today...not to get graphic, but there's NO way anything happened with the condition she was in that night, I'll just leave it at that. Now does that mean that nothing has happened at all? Of course not, but it lends a little more credence to her story. Yes, she slept at another man's house, and she knows I won't stand for that, but still.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just being naive, but I want to believe her. Maybe it's me just trying to see the best in every part of this situation, but I really want to take her at her word. I KNOW this woman, and she is not a bad person. If she was or she didn't give a rip, wouldn't she have just told me there was something going on and that she wanted out to be with him?

Meh, I don't know. I do know it's pointless to try and understand a WAS, so I'm just thinking out loud here. I think it's still a little too fresh for me at this point. As my detachment continues, I have a feeling I'll get a better perspective on this. But I have moved past it. I have forgiven her because I know and have taken ownership of what I did that drove her to find solace with someone else, be it emotional or otherwise.

Unconditional love and patience...that's what I'm trying to give her, and I can only hope that she sees it.

[Timetotry]

Moose,

Speaking from past experience, its actually better if you don't know. Yes, your mind may wonder but its easier to forgive the less details you have. Plus, with the kidney stone issue, its not likely she did do anything that would be really 'special' anyway.

Keep the PMA going. Keep referring to Denver's post, I keep re-reading it myself.

Be strong for you, the W and the M.

[NEmoose43]

I don't know why it's so tough in the mornings...

Days like today, where due to work schedules I wouldn't have seen W even if she was at the house, seem to bother me more than others and I can't figure out why.

Reread Denver's post again, and the main thing I take from it is that I need to calm down. I need to stop trying so hard and just live. I mean, W has already remarked several times on how much I've changed in the 2 months of this fiasco...but I know it will take longer than that to make her see that these changes have actually stuck. And it took that poster 5 months to get some degree of normalcy...I have a feeling it might take us longer. And I know a lot of you that I've been talking with here are even way past that. And I know that my sitch, while bad, is nowhere near as bad as so many others here. We still talk, a lot, and we're still doing things together.

So why can't I can't seem to find any semblance of patience? I'm honestly thinking about trying to get on meds of some kind to help with the anxiety...it's really getting that bad. There are times when my heart races so hard that it worries me. And the thing is, I know that W IS trying. She's coming to terms with a lot of stuff on her side of things like I've talked about, but I know that she's also trying to decide if she's strong enough to work on us. She's made it clear that spending 6 months trying to find the courage to possibly leave was not easy, and I shouldn't assume that she can just come back right away without also finding the strength to do that as well. I need to take solace in that.

I also know that OM may be a factor here, but I have decided that I am not going to bring that up at all right now as it solves nothing. If W is going to swear to me with tears in her eyes that there is nothing going on, I'm going to take her at her word and move past anything that may have happened. If we can eventually get to piecing, I know that I am going to have to set boundaries about it, but that is not something to dwell on now. I also know that I will have to have a sit down with OM at some point and try to talk this out since they will have to work together for at least another year. But not now, because that would end very badly for him if it happened right now.

Til then...detach, detach, detach. Not from the person, but from the R. Just wish it wasn't so damn painful. Really missing her today.

[ninelives]

Tough spot for sure MOOSE. Not to beat a dead horse.and I know our w's are different people. My w swore up and down that there was no OM and even swore on our childrens lives.

She believed that if I found out, I would shut the door forever and she wasnt sure then what her plans were.

Just keep your eyes open thats all.

9

[jbnati]

So why can't I can't seem to find any semblance of patience? I'm honestly thinking about trying to get on meds of some kind to help with the anxiety...it's really getting that bad. There are times when my heart races so hard that it worries me. And the thing is, I know that W IS trying. She's coming to terms with a lot of stuff on her side of things like I've talked about, but I know that she's also trying to decide if she's strong enough to work on us. She's made it clear that spending 6 months trying to find the courage to possibly leave was not easy, and I shouldn't assume that she can just come back right away without also finding the strength to do that as well. I need to take solace in that.

I think the anxiety is that you're stressed. This is a very stressful situation. There is so much uncertainty. At times, like the rest of us, I'm sure you're fearing the worst. My DB coach told me fear is powerful motivator but a terrible guide. Time is your friend right now.

Just know you're not alone, Moose. We're fighting along beside you. I know my W just moved out 3 days ago and I want so bad for her to call me and tell me it's the worst decision she's ever made. But then the other side of me reminds myself that maybe we have to go through this time and space to realize what we have and to never broach the topic of separation and D again.

[islander]

I just heard something and it went like this:

You can't help a butterfly out of it's cacoon, you'll kill it.

Kinda like if we try to help our WASs out of there sitch. They know what we want, butthey need to want it too.

Idk, I thought it kinda fit.

Hang in there moose, and remember patience.

[Timetotry]

Moose,

Its hard to hear the same things again and again: give it time and patience. You really are alot luckier than others out here but I know it doesn't help.

Four months into this myself, I will say it does get a little better with time. Not a lot, not noticeable on a daily basis but overall it does. I keep a journal outside of the board and when I look back at Jan and Feb I am amazed at what has transpired and changed. Its hard to GAL and act 'as if'. Just try cause it may start to click even though you want not too. You may be able to say that you like yourself better and it will show to others that are worth noticing.

I'd suggest keeping some thoughts that you may not want posted in a file on your computer to read weeks later. It may help convince you of how far you've come and changed to be the better person that only a fool would leave.

Take it minute by minute that then turns hours to hours that then will be days to days, etc.