wife having affair - please help

[facingdivorce]

Sorry that was a long post and hopefully not too dense to read. I know I am acting more like Charlie Sheen the winning warlock than calm cool collected. So I am breathing, I am walking, I am trying to decompress.

25 you really have me thinking hard about everything. The point about finding your forgiving nature which you didnt think existed, has set me off. I dont think I am a forgiving person and tend to be very black and white in my judgements. Of course what I am learning is that the whole situation is very grey,I have no control over it and I am lashing out.

So my new uber goal is to discover, learn, develop a forgiveness in me and learn how to show it and use it.

That leads me on to your other point of speaking like a parent, I am definately guilty of that. I have been working on that both in verbal and written communications to be concillatory, to be respectful, but how I perceive it is different to how my wife sees it. I would say she doesnt trust it at all. These will all take time to make happen ( and I dont think it will be straight forward ) and then demonstrate.

Thanks as usual for hearing me out

[25yearsmlc]

The DB coach is going to be a great asset for you. Anything I say that isn't in alignment, ignore!. But I bet she'll say that your w needs to know you are a new and improved version of you. Details below.

I'm sorry the outing of the OM went as badly as it did. It's one reason I advise against involving 3rd parties at all. I do not tell people to cover for the affair or to lie, but I just never saw outing to third parties, as helpful. I think it always backfires and worsens things. Oh sure, there are LBSers who CLAIM that outing was a good thing, but they're rarely reunited with their spouses so...so, you have to wonder why they still advise that way. They are usually self righteous and angry. And of course we can see why!! But DBing is not about getting even, "scoring a point", "teaching a lesson"...it's about doing what works.

Anyhow, She justified leaving you or she would not have done it. So in her eyes, you either pushed her into OM's arms, or, alternatively, you neglected her and "it just happened." That does NOT mean she doesn't have mixed feelings or 2nd thoughts. You want her to have self doubt, and 2nd thoughts and at those moments, you want her to look your way and wonder if maybe, maybe you could change...So I ask you, what will she see when she looks your way? Are you going to an angry man with a score card? Will your arms be crossed, figuratively and literally? Or will you welcome her with open arms and acceptance...?

Did you understand my comment about that "parental voice"?

My DB coach said that when we use our parental voice we shut down their inner voice.

WAS's have Inner voices questioning their decisions. WAW who are mothers are going to have inner voices that nag at her about what she's doing, and what she is teaching her daughters about marriage, and commitment, and vows and men...Thing is, we hope she doesn't look at this choice as a good teaching point for what to look for in a R, (ie the OM)

The bad news is, no offense, but you do have some flaws that would erode any marriage. The good news and it IS good news, is that you can do something about these flaws and change the equation. So again, when she has those moments when she's not so sure of her choices, you want to control what she sees in you.

Why did she fall in love with you originally? What were you like when you were dating? Can we get back to THAT man?

Also, Have you read the book "the Five Love Languages" by Chapman? It's great. I highly recommend it...very highly.

Anyhow, when we use our parental voice we shut down their inner voice. Some examples of questions that are "parental" in nature, are those that start with "WHY DID YOU...x??" or "HOW CAN YOU DO/SAY...x or y"???

Those questions are NOT questions really seeking information. More like "How can you be so selfish?" I mean, those questions are designed to put the recipient on the defensive, which does NOT help communications.
And they force her to keep defending her choices, and it unites her with OM. Like the outing, you would be reinforcing her position with OM. We don't want that.

You said you have trouble with emotional communications so put a note to self, "avoid questions starting with the words..."why or how", in an emotional situation. (Obviously I'm talking about relationship communicating, which is going to be a delicate matter for you.)

Once you learn what your w's love language is, you may find it necessary to work harder on your verbal communications. Just Note that you have
to contrast those negative images she has, with positives, or at least add no more fuel to her negatives. Unfortunately you have to do some overcoming now...due to the outing, which did in fact unite them.
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It's hard to do this with No contact. You did the no contact, I think, b/c it was easier for you than dealing with her, right? You feared getting to angry?

But How will she know of your changes? She has to believe that marriage to you now, or someday, can be better than it was before. You have to discuss things about the girls, so why not use that as a spring board for bonding, finding common ground?

Have you taken responsibility and or apologized for any of the mistakes you made, or pain you inflicted on her? I know you feel you are the aggrieved party, but NEWSFLASH...she sees herself as the aggrieved party, not you. I am not defending her affair. I'm trying to help you save your m.

What a 180 it would be for you to apologize for being too controlling or critical. Imagine how you'd steal her thunder then...but, if apologizing is just too much for you at the moment, You can say something like "Yes, If I had it to do over, I'd do a lot of things differently." That's a true statement and it suggests changes in you are happening. It's not grovelling to say that.

Here's what my DB coach told me and some of it applies to you. (But you have to choose what applies to you).

1) Help her feel safe to be around you, as in, she's not going to be verbally attacked or condemned every time she drops the kids off.

2) Lose the anger in front of her. It does NOT matter if you think you are "right". Do you want to be "right" or happy?

3) Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives she does, meaning compliment her for any and all gestures or acts of kindness or being on time or calling when she said, etc. This is also a 180 for you if you were usually critical. (Yes, I know this is hard. It can be Mother Teresa hard, at times. Trust me, I know...).

4) Do at least 2 180's...and GAL. Your GALs sound good. I think the yoga and the working out are both great for your emotional/physical wellness. Other activities that get you to meet new people and not have any reminders of the old life, or what you are missing are smart and healthy....plus your girls will see you in a new way too. That's not bad. They will say things to your w about your GAL too. Count on it. So be mindful of what you say and do around your girls...it's a good thing.

5) No monitoring for results for several weeks or months at least. Your changes will be noticed by your w SOONER than that. But she will not believe them for a long time, if ever. And she will surely not tell YOU that she's noticed them....So you have to be consistent over time, for her to believe in them.

And once she does believe you have changed, she'll probably say "too little too late" but that WILL NOT BE REAL...b/c down deep, every woman wishes the man who fathered her children, was also the man of her dreams. Who wouldn't?

She'll fear your changes are merely tactics to lull her into returning to a marriage that won't ever fulfill her, and she'll fear that you will hold the OM affair over her head the rest of her life, like the Sword of Damacles...and some of your past actions have suggested exactly that. For nearly every deep hurt you have felt in this situation, you have reacted. So that has to stop now. Do you believe you can ever forgive her? I ask this b/c if you cannot, you may as well save yourself time and energy and just end the m now...no long marriage has endured without forgiveness on both ends. Don't forget your role in this, and that she has had to forgive you for a lot too.

I know that some m's don't end up reconciling b/c the WAS believes the LBSer won't forgive, and often the WAS are correct. Some LBSers don't think the WAS will "earn back" the trust that was lost but they, the LBSer, fails to see that they don't know how to forgive, which is sad. And Some LBSers dont' want to forgive, and those marriages are doomed.

If you want this m to be saved, you will have to forgive her AND she will have to believe you will. This is a big obstacle to reconciliation. Ask yourself when you are going to speak or do something, how it will assist you in showing her this.

You have some work to do, for her to believe in the new you. You have to show her that the road home is paved and smooth. But how can you do this with no contact?

IMO, the "no contact" doesn't do anything EXCEPT keep you from "losing it" in front of her. If you think that you cannot be around her without losing your temper, then you are right to do the no contact...but at some stage, I'd say it's a good idea to start some limited interactions. You can structure them to be short brief interactions. Like the children's drop off...make sure you are upbeat, pleasant, and off to your new cool life interests....to get her to be comfortable and not seem like pursuit or pressure, you be the one to end the conversations, leave the drop off point first, etc. But interact, you must.

How about dressing "up" or differently, wearing new cologne, change or cover the gray in your hair, just LOOK DIFFERENT b/c it's an easy visible thing and it plants seeds of a new you, without hammering her over the head with the "look at me NOW==see how I've changed! Do NOT Expect comment from her and don't invite it. Be brief, not b/c you are rude, but b/c you are busy GAL.

The great news is that the new you is not an "act"; it is real, you "get it " now, you get that she felt uncherished by you. You understand you have some flaws that need repairing. You are working on those problems and a problem being worked on, is no longer a problem... by owning these flaws, you take the thunder out of her storm so then she's left with-- what? She'll be confused, saying "FD is no longer short tempered, and he's kinder, calmer, even keeled....he's not criticizing me! He's better than before, he's a great dad. The d's love being around him and he's NOT how he was when I chose OM...his 'big flaws' are not so big b/c he admits them and he's fixing them...I have no justification for leaving him b/c he has become all I ever wanted him to be, i.e., a man only a fool would leave...."

What you want to feel and project,is that you are happy and upbeat about YOUR FUTURE LIFE, and a bit sad & resigned to her decision... and the reason you are saddened for her, is NOT merely b/c of your loss, but HERS!! She'll be losing a man who "gets her", and she's losing the man you will have grown into, i.e., a great dad and great h, for her or for some OW. She will be losing a man who has learned to see her through God's eyes...

Losing THAT type of man, is indeed a big loss. Be a man only a fool would leave. It's going to take work and time on your end, and even more of that for her to believe in it. But it can be done.
I am rooting for you. You can do this. You are a smart man, with a lot of energy and I think good priorities. You've already learned a lot.

[facingdivorce]

Hi 25

Outing the OM
So I was prepared for some heavy backlash on this from them. The lawyers letter is baseless, an empty threat as om is not a resident or national. But it does show they are rattled. I just want them to pause and not think everything is rosy. My wife still lives in the house, still has her job, car, children and now new OM. Theres been no downside for her at all.

Being her cheerleader
I have started doing that about a month ago ( I was always supportive ) So when I hear something has gone well for her, I sent her a quick email telling her how great it is, proud of her accomplishments. The key for me is to be credible and pick the right things to cheerlead.Also not to be gushy as she doesnt like that. So her love language would be affirmations, she definately responds to words and talking ( whereas I cooked dinner everynight and that was never seen to be a big thing... and I can COOK !)So I do try to make emails light and friendly. I try and not get her to use sms ( I dont respond to them only email ) as it is very hard to be friendly with text messages and they can be misconstrued.

So even when I said we had to go nc, I was framing it in that she is a loved member of the family and had all the support and care, but we need to have a break for awhile so we could all take a breath and regroup.

When she looks my way
A week ago, she was on this " business trip " with OM and I called her on it in a very short email. So I get this tirade back 3 pages of venom. But hidden amongst all the anger was " you do recognise and say the right things to me about us, such as respect and care and suppport" So whilst she rebuffs me 100% of the time, obviously some of it does get through.

What that interlude taught me though is forget about / ignore all the negative things she says about me and marriage, look for the tiny positive things and respond and build up on those. I dont want to get into retalitory emails ( I did write a long tense rebuff to her email and then deleted it once I had got it out )

So what does she need to see in me
- that I will support her
- that I will not judget her or make hard comments
- that I am happy and getting on with life
- I am a committed father
- that I have changed and it is not a tactic

At the moment, my emails to her are good as I take my time crafting them. My small f2f contact - to be honest is not so good, I see her and I get a bit fidgetty. We havent spoken on phone for awhile, but the last time it was good, i let it go to vm now.

Open arms and acceptance
Cautious yes, I have made it clear to her in writing awhile back that there is always a road to reconciliation and that I stand up for my marriage. How we would actually reconcile, I havent discussed as we are no way there yet and it would be complicated to say the least. So I say cautious in that I expect she will find it v hard to stop affair in one go, so I would be cautious.

Be the man I was
Sure I understand ( to some degree ) what she saw in me, it was the energy, the success, humor, i cooked , I was travelled I was open to the world and what it could offer and she inturn believed in me.

I was also skinnier! Im working on that..the seperation diet is a good one.

Forgiveness
Your so right there, I just remembered she said quietly a few weeks back oh you will never forgive me that we are not moving to the countryside. I said oh no i am fine. The thing was I minimised it, coz to me, I dont really care where we live ( we have lived in other countries, so we are not cemented anywhere ) so I got over not moving there pretty quickly. But she obviously thnks it would be a major hurdle for me. mmmmmm need to think that through more. So I know I have reacted to situations, hence why I am removing my self ( I am looking for loving detachment ) i need to get on an even keel.

Then a new goal would be to quietly communicate that we can forgive that there is a way forward. Its not the right time now ( she not too happy this week dues to the lawyer thingy ) and she is obviously full steam ahead with om - though they havent seen each other now for about 10 days.OK OK Im not thinking about it ( as much )

The road home is paved with...
So I need to keep NC for another week, It gives me time to calm down, breathe, talk to you ( Thanks ! )and generally get it together. I have built a web page which has photos of the kids, a shared parenting calender that we can use for co parenting and a dedicated messenger address just for my wife and kids. I was going to send it to her in a weeks time and say this is a good way ( read safe ) to co ordinate the kids, plus share photos, plus for her and I to talk about kids and finances and resolve things quickly via IM.Of course once and if she accepts it, then we can talk online. To me, If I get that in place and being used, thats a really good step.

Oh I smell nice now too!
I bought some new cologne ( my beagle loves it at least ) I shave every day, new haircut and new clothes ( I have lost a lot of weight so had too ) She did say I looked good the other day when I dropped the kids off, so thats an improvement. I also try to be mysterious,when the kids call everyday. I am always off somewhere, movies, a class, dinner etc I know this gets back to her.

Whilst I have all my hair, it is grey but she always liked it and I think if I dyed it, she would laugh... But I did have lasik surgery so now no glasses and had my teeth whitened.

So I really like your last part as it gives me hope. I do have a lot to do on myself, but I think we have identified those areas and what to do, so it up to me to put it into action.

The affair I realise now thanks to 25, is not the major issue, it is a symptom. It may continue, it may die tomorrow from the stress, but the one thing I now get is that it is not up to me to do anymore about it , so let it be - it is what it is.

So I will focus on me and the kids ( thats always easy and fun ) and be patient. And I will avoid lawyers!

25 I do not know how I can ever say thankyou enough for your care and guidance, as I am sure others that read this thread take strength in your wisdom as I do.

[facingdivorce]

Working from home as a man.

In my job, the way it was, I worked from home for the past couple of years and I REALLY HATED IT. At first I was like this is cool, no commuting, no cafeteria food, no tiny cubicle. The problem was, you end up getting very isolated. My therapist who speacialises in " mens issues ", was saying that in no way should men be on their own, we tend to spiral down. That definately happened to me, I ended up looking like Tom Hanks in that movie Castaway ( the second half! )

I believe now that really impacted my wifes image of me. I went from being outgoing, wearing suits, bouncing in with energy, to being overweight, non shaven and not well dressed.

So lesson learnt, my next job will be office orientated ( yes thats right I have to go buy some new suits, Im diving back into the corporate world ) and a renewed vogor in galing will also help.

[25yearsmlc]

FD,

You sound like a fast learner. That's good and I'm glad she noticed AND commented on your appearance. That's a great sign.

I'm not crazy about your website idea for now. I can see the appeal. But I worry that it leads to LESS contact not more. I mean, in theory, you two might not have to have ANY contact outside that website and that is NOT moving you towards your goal.

Sure, sure, it's easier for you at the moment...b/c you avoid conflict.
But it's about moving toward your goal...Your goal, ultimately, is to build rapport and make her feel comfortable around you, so you two can build from there.

I know how hard things are at this time. For me at the start of it all, just having a phone conversation without rancor or accusation was the first goal. I put it in 10 min incremental goals and it wasn't long before I was able to do that.

We could talk around topics pretty well. That lead to some jokes and stories about the kids bonding us. It took a long time to go from there to really talking, but there wasn't much to say about reconciling until we were living in the same state again. In a way that's like your situation in that you can only discuss your life so much without touching on the topic of OM...for now it's wise to stay off that topic. He does not matter. He is NOT your problem. He is a puzzle for your w to solve.

As for outing him, the L letter may seem baseless to you but I would not discount it. First, you cannot injure someone and then say b/c they are not citizens it doesn't matter. They are here. It does matter and he has rights, as does your wife.

(Plus if he lives here he's a legal resident anyhow.) They say the average affair lasts 6 months so let's not lengthen that time period by uniting them. It did unite them.

Some people argue that the more time they spend together, in a way, the faster they can learn about the other's flaws and get through the euphoric stage. Maybe some truth to that. But Can I assume you are done with the outing of OM? IMO, you can really damage yourself here and I see no upside for you.

It will backfire, I'm telling you.

I cannot think of ANY examples of WAS's having their A's exposed and OPs punished, AND THEN having the WAS run home into the arms of their LBSers...I have never seen it get the response desired, and usually there isn't a clear goal anyhow. More like "I want to hurt them b/c I hurt" and even if THAT works, it does you no good as a couple. You unite them, you look vindictive and you end up fueling the negatives she used to justify the A in the first place. You are effectively proving her right.

Plus you say there's been no downside for your w but that is a lot of mind reading on your part. Just b/c the externals are the same, means nothing about her inner world. How do you think she feels when the kids ask about you?

Also, when you reacted in anger and moved out, given that you were working at home, and the kids were used to that, I think you could have had physical custody of the girls and had her move out. But you reacted "decisively" and now you are out of the house. I only point this out to get you to stop before reacting. Think long and hard before you do something like that. Otherwise you paint yourself in a corner.

We don't know what she's going through. She is aware that another wife exists, (and does OM have children??) That has to bother her. But You DO NOT point this out. Let her work it out. It's not for you to judge or comment upon. (She does not want YOUR feedback on this, trust me. DBing is about doing what helps you with your goals, not being "right").

You also are skimming over what she went through before hand. Fact is, it took a lot for her to choose this route. I'm not defending it FD, but we both know it couldn't have been easy for her. I think you were honest in your self examination and your role in this, and that's a great advantage.
It gives you clear 180s to work on and I think you're on your way to being a better FD. Plus if she brings up a fault of yours, you get to do a 180 and agree with her! Do you see how confusing that is?

Small example I had. My h had always paid the bills but when he left, he stopped paying ALL of them but did not mention this to me. So the electricity was about to be cut off when I realized all this. I was furious and frightened and humiliated. I had a DB session then, thank God, b/c h called a while later and I informed him about the bill not being paid. He actually wondered if it had hurt HIS credit...no concern about me or the kids...but I told him I had paid it and before I could say more, he interrupted to say "Good! Now you know how it is to pay the bills b/c I've done it for 20 years!"

Instead of arguing with him or telling him how selfish he was, (FYI he routinely paid the bills & never once said he wanted me to pay them instead) I used the advice my DB coach had just givenme. I said, "I know you have, and I want to thank you for that, b/c it IS stressful."

A good 30 seconds passed before h replied, "you're welcome." I am positive he was shocked that this didn't escalate. Instead of attacking him, I thanked him. Talk about a 180 and diffusing...

How is your fathering time going? Remember how much it matters to women to see their children lovingly interacting with their fathers. Be the best dad you can be now. The girls need you more anyhow, b/c they've lost a parent at home and if she's gone travelling a lot, who gets them? Why not you?

There's hope in your situation. For your own sanity, do some forgiveness work. For the foreseable future, that work is for you, not her. It sets you free. I got to the point where I realized I was repeating myself to my sisters and friends, cycling through emotions over and over. I was consumed by my pain and anger and it interfered with my R's with my children. Frankly, the pain of it all was simply too much for me to bear, plus be a parent to children who were hurt by their father's choice to leave, and plan a new life or GAL. I had to let it go or I'd be consumed by the pain and anger and become a bitter woman. It's gimmicky, but I chose to become BETTER, not BITTER...Make sense?

If you are a believer, try turning your marriage over to God, be the best man you can become, and leave the results up to Him. Good luck.

[25yearsmlc]

I have got to write shorter notes...sheesh.

[facingdivorce]

Hi quick updatr, just got email from wifes lawyer and he wants to proceed now to financial settlement of property etc.... She must be really mad at the exposure. We can divorce until feb next year so i still have time to db, but this is certainly another hurdlr to overcome...

Anyway, I have a meeting with a lawyer tomorrow, i will proceed on the financial settlement , that will protect our financial position, but with instructions to lawyer i want to avoid d, so we slow it all down and not get all agressive.

25 , i havent read yr long response yet, i think i need to go for one of my long walks. But i saw yr short one about yr long posts... I value and respect every word you say and i know others will be benefiting from your wisdom. So please write away all you want!

Back soon

[25yearsmlc]

FD,

Sorry you got that email. It's good that you have a year timeline in your state. And that you want your L to keep it slow. So, don't let this change your plan. In my state (California) a third of the divorces filed are never completed.

Keep all the ugly business stuff with the lawyers and let them hash it out. OF course in time you and your w will realize that it's cheaper to work things out between yourselves and hopefully build enough rapport that she starts to doubt the wisdom of her choice.

So stay on track and don't let this throw you. But YES YOU MUST STOP the outing stuff. Not to say I told you so, but dang, this was predictable. I Still read some posters here who love to punish the cheaters and advise others to do it with gusto. I always ask them what their LONG TERM Goal is...and they get quiet.

So, back to your plan and the 180's. NOW is an opportunity for you to behave in the "NEW YOU" way. And getting in your daddy time.
Good luck -hang in there.

[facingdivorce]

Hi 25, I knew you were going to bust me on the outing expsoure.So I can sort that out with the lawyers, but in one way I still think it shifts their affair discussions from loving, fun to lawyers, termination. So has it stopped the affair? I dont know, I know he hasnt been around in 10 days, but is there a causal link - I cant tell. Is my wife mad - yessssssss.

BUT I AGREE WITH YOU, no more exposure. I can apply pressure to the affair, purely by not co operating on her travel co ordination which is what I did this week. She wanted to travel Wed / Thursday to OS ( same country as OM ) I just said cant do it, doesnt work into my schedule. She has to travel nextweek for a biz pitch and the answer is the same.

I will start communications again soon, and wont do the website as I was thinking.

I just need to be calm and without rancour in what I say. Agree I should not have moved out, but that happened before I knew of OM and found this website. So I have to build my strategy on not being there. In one way it would have been almost impossible to stay there and not gone crazy.

I dont want to assume what my wife was thinking about our marriage, mainly because I have no idea as to the person who currently inhabits her body...

I would say though
I was not meeting all her needs
We were doing far too many changes with too much pressure
I was tired and travelled just as much
I was judgemental
I was emotionally detached

So there are things I am working on by myself and some things with my IC, so I do want to show her, but really doing them for myself. This weekend aI dont have the kids, but I have had a good time of gal ing and just some quiet time. So its getting better for me.

My wife left a vm on the kids, but she sounded angry.. The anger is something I dont understand, I assume it is designed to keep me away.

Thanks will keep on track now

[facingdivorce]

So its understanding things from my WW point of view that is difficult.

She is angry in our interactions ( is that a defence mechanism to keep me away?)

She makes no effort to be nice whatsoever.

The thing I need to work on now, is how to create a bridge back to where we have some type of communication. I like the common topic of the children, thats logical and is our connection point.

So I agree no discussion or focus on the OM.I tell you though to just have to accept his presence and ignore it is very tough. I know I have to discuss travel etc with her ( at some point if she cant travel they will let her go ) If she loses her job, she will definately never forgive me.

I wont discuss forgiveness yet with her, I will work on it for sure. I suppose it is something that would come up if we ever get to the point of discussing our relationship

25 always thankyou for your guidance