I'm in no way an exp'd DBer but from a W's standpoint I can tell you that I don't think she would be there a 2nd time around if she truly wasn't in it for the long haul. I wish you guys luck and I hope everything works out for the best!
Me:32 H:32 M:9 T:15 D:4 S:2 OW/PA: JANUARY 10 ILYBINILWY AUGUST 10 Goes and Comes July/September Moves out September Sep. since Sept.
It is natural to feel insecure when you have had a betrayal in the past. That is why simply moving back in together, and having some very good days and nights together, simply is not enough. Your relationship is not "fixed" yet. You've made amazing headway, don't get me wrong, but there is a lot more territory to be covered here. And the feelings you are feeling are real, and they are part of the process.
Your wife said the same thing, she is afraid of being hurt. Being in a loving, trusting, committed relationship means that you are vulnerable. You are not hiding behind a fortress wall. It is a good sign that you both are feeling it. Very good sign. This would make a good topic to discuss at MC.
As my husband and I reconciled, I felt like Hansel and Gretel, lost in the woods, following a path of breadcrumbs, looking for the way out. I was very unsure. I would say the insecure feelings lasted about 6 months. This is why you must not just call the marriage reconciled and stop working on it. MC is important, the nice acts of caring are important, doing things together is important, the open communication is important, and keeping the commitment to go to Retrouvaille is important. If you do all of it, you will get where you want to go.
Remember, you cannot fail if you both want it. How can you? You can only fail if you lose the commitment to your goal. Keep working on quieting the voice of defeatism inside you. It will not help you.
Totally understand and agree that the relationship is not fixed. I have no intention of resting on my laurels now. MC is still ongoing and Retro is still a go. Neither my W or I want to go back to how our relationship was in the past. We both know that it is going to take work and continue to take work into the future.
Thank you so much for taking the time to post. It is great to hear from people that have successfully reconciled and to also know that what I am feeling is normal.
I am still working on quieting the voice. In the past I would have stewed on it and not said anything. I find that I am getting better about opening up to my W about how I feel. I still feel sometimes that my W is still closed off but hopefully that will change with time. I need to be consistent and she needs to realize that I am not going to try to fix things or make her feel bad for how she feels, but instead validate her feeling and try to empathize with her.
M 33 | W 34 | Kids: S4, S3 M: 5/28/05 Bomb: 8/22/09 EA: 8/1/09 | PA 12/26/09 W L: 10/21/09 M L: 11/16/09 | 12/09 to file SA W & Boys Move Out: 3/14/10
I will start this post by saying that I know people are different and timelines are different. However, I do wonder how long it has taken other people's spouses to be affectionate and loving towards you.
Did it take time for them to feel comfortable opening up to you and exposing themselves, not in a sexual way but in an emotional way?
If your spouse was cold and closed off during your marriage, did they soften at all? What lead to those developments?
I make sure that I am not falling back into old patterns. In the past I would distance myself when I didn't feel appreciation or affection from my W. Now I find myself moving towards her and giving appreciation and affection. I am not doing it to get a reaction or response out of her but instead because a) I want to b) I want her to know that I care about her c) I know it is the right thing to do to change old behaviors
However, I find myself comparing what my ex-GF did to show appreciation and affection and I miss it. I want my W to do those things. I am just trying to understand other situations and timelines because I know things aren't going to change overnight.
M 33 | W 34 | Kids: S4, S3 M: 5/28/05 Bomb: 8/22/09 EA: 8/1/09 | PA 12/26/09 W L: 10/21/09 M L: 11/16/09 | 12/09 to file SA W & Boys Move Out: 3/14/10
You've had a longer and tougher road that I ever had. But I find myself with the same questions and frankly it kinda depresses me if I dwell on it.
For us, my W dropped the bomb in early Nov. By late Nov. she had taken D off the table. After a couple good weeks, my W said that we should start sleeping in the same bed. At first, she would lay with her back to me on the other side. Gradually, she's returned to a more normal sleeping patter, but it's not like we spoon or hug all night. (rarely did)
In late Dec., my W surprised the heck out of me by asking if I wanted to start ML again. Granted she didn't do a progression from physical intimacy to this...she just kinda jumped into. Well, 2 days later I screwed it up and we haven't ML since. she hasn't kissed me or initiated any kind of physical touch in about 4 weeks. The most she's done is to sit on the couch next to me twice.
This is starting to become a sore point with me. I don't want it to. I brought it up to my W about 2 weeks ago and she said that I just needed to be patient and that she still has a lot of resentment towards me. I said okay. I just wish she'd give a little on this because I feel that if we are going to move forward we need to move forward.
On Monday, I laid out the sex thing for her. I told her "I really miss the sex part of things. I know that you are in a different place right now and I totally respect that. I'm not asking you to or anything and this is my issue I have to learn how to deal with. I know I have to be patient with you and I will, but sometimes it bothers me and since you asked."
She didn't get mad, but just kind of acknowledge the situation. Maybe I aimed too high.
So for me the tally is this.
Early Nov-mid Dec.: Slept in separate rooms Mid Dec.-now : Sleeping in room.
Since early Nov:
ML once in late Dec.
Other physical affection: Basically nothing constant, a few hugs here or there and maybe 2-3 kisses. No hand holding, snuggling, spooning.
Verbal: One ILY. Nothing in email or txt.
No one-on-one dates. But she planned something for Dec. it was running a 5K together, no kids which is not what we usually do.
She usually calls me or txt me once a Day. Mostly to see how things are and to talk kids/dinner.
We also had to MC session in Dec. but every MC session in Jan. was canceled due to weather or sick kids.
I really think we need to start having some physical intimacy. I'm starting to get worried that she will never want to or just get used to the idea of a marriage with no physical touches.
The ironic thing is that My W comes from a very touchy-feely family and she's kinda the opposite. While my family is not touchy-feel at all.
Not that I'm keeping a tally or anything.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
Kemper, I really think this will get better for you at Retrouvaille. The transformation that happens over the course of the weekend is remarkable. I don't really know what it is about the process they have you go through that breaks down the barriers, but I know it works. Not everyone succeeds just over the weekend, some need the Post sessions, too, to get all the way to a truly mutually supportive relationship. Of course, everyone's problems are different. Yours and Harrier's, for example. You don't have a sexual problem; you have an appreciation problem. He has a sexual problem, and maybe an appreciation problem too.
I know when we arrived at Retrouvaille for our weekend, my H and I thought we wanted to reconcile "if it was possible" (which meant if it wasn't too difficult), but we were not on the same page at all. After we took our suitcases up to the room and were about to go downstairs for the first listening session, he said to me, with determination in his voice, "I'm going to be in a relationship where I am appreciated!". And I just looked at him. Because I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to appreciate about him. So I didn't know if that would happen. I had so many things that I resented about him. How could I appreciate him when I only felt resentment? I didn't say anything. I just walked through the door and down to the meeting room. That was Friday night.
Saturday morning we started the program in earnest. We wrote letters to each other and talked about our feelings about the past. We talked a lot. At first we were adversaries. But as the day went on, we weren't adversaries anymore. We were negotiating. We were learning what the other person cared deeply about and we were willing to give each other that. It wasn't everything, but it was a good start. By Saturday afternoon break, I noticed a lot of the couples were walking arm in arm or holding hands. I couldn't believe it! We had all been so cold and distant just that morning!
I remember after dinner there was about an hour til the next meeting, and we were feeling good about ourselves. My H and I went to the room for a quickie. They rang the bell for the next session and we were the last ones in our chairs. I remember the worried look on one of the presenting couples' faces. They were worried that maybe we weren't getting along. Hah!
We came home Sunday night as changed people. I was nice to him; he was nice to me. Appreciating him was not so hard. And he started to appreciate me too. Instead of refusing to eat the food I cooked, he ate it, and even complimented it. He's probably put on 30 pounds since we were at Retrouvaille 3 years ago. And I just smile, because those are 30 love pounds.
You only have 4 more weeks til your weekend. My advice is - don't push it. You are not going to be able to fix this by yourselves, and you don't have to. Just keep limping along, like you have been doing, and do the weekend. They will help you there. So how long? I'd say one to two more months.
You've had a longer and tougher road that I ever had.
It hasn't been as long as others on the board and I am greatful for that. I have been trying to put myself in my W's shoes and think about how this must be impacting her. While I had my faults in our M, I didn't choose to escape with an OP. I have no idea how hard it must be to face yourself knowing you took a path that would have destroyed your family and caused tremendous pain on your S. While this process isn't easy for me I know it probably isn't easy for W either.
We need to be consistent with our actions and allow our Ws to open up to us. I am sure that they feel uncomfortable and potentially fear what our reactions might be.
Do you guys not hold hands because she doesn't want to, or because you haven't tried? Have you paid attention to what the marital complaints are and focused on improving yourself to address those?
It is a roller coaster for sure, but I keep thinking about how I want to live my life, what I need in a R, and how I want to be able to look back and know I lived my life in a way that I am happy with.
I am hoping that my W will open up once she feels comfortable with me and knows that I won't attack. We men suck at just listening and I keep catching myself but I know it is something that I will need to continue to work on. My W is awesome at it, she can just sit and listen and say very few words. Honestly it is funny because it works, the less she talks the more she gets out of me.
I can't wait for Retrouvaille to be honest. I have a friend that just got back from marriage boot camp and he was trying to talk me into going to that instead. However, at this time I have committed to Retro and will re-evaluate the boot camp if and when the time requires it.
It is so good to hear how the weekend has transformed individuals and couples alike. I know that both my W and I have issues that we need to resolve about ourselves that lead to issues in our M. I am hopefull that we are both open to looking deep inside and building a stronger M because of it.
M 33 | W 34 | Kids: S4, S3 M: 5/28/05 Bomb: 8/22/09 EA: 8/1/09 | PA 12/26/09 W L: 10/21/09 M L: 11/16/09 | 12/09 to file SA W & Boys Move Out: 3/14/10
Just read an article on marriage boot camp. Nothing like Retrouvaille. I guess being physically active would be fun, but it sounds like a lot of exposing your problems in front of other people. And that never goes on at Retrouvaille. All the discussion takes place just between each husband and wife. Group sessions are for the couples to listen to the lead couples. I guess if you wanted to have a pillow fight in the room, you could. But it's not on the program.
One of the concerns I had about marriage boot camp is exactly what you pointed out. My W had fears about going to Retro because she thought we would have to air our dirty laundry out in front of strangers. Once I explained to her that we didn't she felt more at ease and agreed to attend.
I find that I have been cycling in my mind today. Most of my thoughts revolve around my W and OM.
Some keys dates have passed and some are approaching. My W and OM first had sex the week before Christmas in 2010. After her trip and rendezvous she spent Christmas day with the boys and I. Obviously, this key date has passed but the one approaching is right before Valentine's Day. My W flew OM down to our home city and spent three nights with him right before V day. Hopefully with time these thoughts and cycles will be further and further between and frustrate me less than they do now.
I am also cycling because I have seen how my W interacted with OM through email. She was very affectionate in little ways that she isn’t with me. I sometimes wonder how she would be if we hadn’t been married and this was a “new” relationship. Would she be giving more? Both my W and I need to do work to improve our R, just wonder sometimes how committed she is to doing that work.
Less than a month until Retro. Not looking at the weekend as a cure all but am optimistic that we come away from that weekend with a renewed focus on our R and openness with each other that currently isn’t there.
M 33 | W 34 | Kids: S4, S3 M: 5/28/05 Bomb: 8/22/09 EA: 8/1/09 | PA 12/26/09 W L: 10/21/09 M L: 11/16/09 | 12/09 to file SA W & Boys Move Out: 3/14/10
Hold your thoughts, Kemper. You shouldn't think about your wife and OM at all. You need to think about today and the future. Not ugly parts of the past. Sure, it's a lot of fun to have a new love. I, personally, was pretty addicted to the feeling. It was my one regret with reconciling, that I would never experience the titillation of a new boyfriend again. But there is a lot to be said for old love too. For holding the hand of the person you built your family and your life with. To be able to look back and remember the good times and the trials that made you who you are today.
Go have a nice V-day with your wife. Remember the good times that you shared with her. i'm sure if you put the good times with you on one side of a scale and the good times with him on the other, that your side would outweigh his. Take her out to dinner, and while you are there, mention a memory of a good time the two of you shared in your past. Reminding yourselves of the good times is a powerful way to bring you together.
